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Did Ma Long has the right feeling for this point?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:


Thanks for that comment. Very good point you mentioned here.
Player during moving didn't feel where is he exactly. But maybe you mean player on lower level?
Because I think after these 29378910238728190238473289034847329034873290 hours in the hall,
Ma Long pretty well know where is his body according to the table. And during the hit, his eyes are focused on the ball. Do you think he didn't recognize he was all out with the ball and bat from the side line? At least here we are talking for a loop versus pushed ball, not counterlooping.
According all these facts I mentioned (or you think ML can't recognize there are about one racket space between his bat and sideline) with your help - do you still think his behaviour was not in purpose? Of course everyone wants to win, but I don't think this is the way to do. Especially on that level.


Thats the problem.
you only thinking he could be making a tactical decision by calling for the point and not that he thinks he deserved the point as he feels the ball hit the edge.

There is no rule of if it goes down it is side.
Both will argue and umpires makes the call without technology.

If you feel it is yours, you make the call.
There is no time to think, you act base on your feeling.

and no matter if it is a push or counterloop, the action is split second, its all based on feeling.

So to answer your question again, his behavior is on purpose of him thinking the ball did hit the edge and not some other theory you are trying to claim.

And I'm saying your theory could be wrong because:
1) he can't be 100% sure that his contact point is in or out side the line (so take away his thinking of wanting to cheat)
2) the ball can hit the edge faintly and go down (take away your "rule" that doesn't exist in a rule book)
3) and since the angle of the ball will land on the table and not outside, there is always some chance of it getting the edge

Now, Ma Long could be in the wrong, it won't be a tactic calling for the point. During such fast tempo and pace, its all based on feeling.

I'm starting to wonder, do you understand this feeling im talking about? :)

you are claiming he is a cheat.... 5 years ago, 1 point.
i'm not a Ma Long fan, but I think you need a bit more to proof he uses "these kind of method" to win points.


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/16/2022 at 2:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:


I'm starting to wonder, do you understand this feeling im talking about? :)

you are claiming he is a cheat.... 5 years ago, 1 point.
i'm not a Ma Long fan, but I think you need a bit more to proof he uses "these kind of method" to win points.


Maybe we talk for different things. I am talking in general they both with Timo are TOP class players and ML complained in a situation he has not any right, as he was out of the side line with all his body together with the ball in the moment of the hit. If you think he didn't recognize that fact, ok, possible, but hard to believe.

Honestly, about the rule for edge balls I don't remember what exactly was written, because on the course 15 years ago we had additional notices for such a case and I should search about it, but I clearly remember our teacher explained : If the ball is being hit out of the side line and just drop down from the nearest edge, point is for the opposite player. If the ball jump out approximately on the line of the table or higher after touching the edge - then the umpire has right to call point for the player who has been out of the side line during the hit.

Of course, we had several schemes where everything was explained with examples. I am not going to explain you anything more about rules, before to check it again, because the method of estimation who is the point winner here is connected also with Maths ( Law of tangent lines or something like that (geometry). There is no chance to pretend the point is yours if the ball just go down after hitting the edge and you have been hit it out of side line (nearest).

And yes, I know what's the feeling to be in motion in tt. Belive me I know that much more better than you think. Not sure what's exactly your point here.

According the time of the situation happened - 5 or 10 or 20 years or just in the last day.....It just happened, right? And there will be conclusion after that. I am not talking for fans.
I remember once I made topic how many players are using illegal serves and so many people first said it is hard to estimate if this is cheating or not. Later everyone started to show these illegal serves and to comment them. And somehow players improved. Just a connection. You can accept it if you want.

No doubt ML is the most successful player in TT and his results won't be reached soon again by other player I think. It will be pretty hard. But here I am talking for a point where he complained without any reason. It is not enough to be in motion when the facts are talking enough. I will try to search the rule about this situation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:


I'm starting to wonder, do you understand this feeling im talking about? :)

you are claiming he is a cheat.... 5 years ago, 1 point.
i'm not a Ma Long fan, but I think you need a bit more to proof he uses "these kind of method" to win points.


Maybe we talk for different things. I am talking in general they both with Timo are TOP class players and ML complained in a situation he has not any right, as he was out of the side line with all his body together with the ball in the moment of the hit. If you think he didn't recognize that fact, ok, possible, but hard to believe.

Honestly, about the rule for edge balls I don't remember what exactly was written, because on the course 15 years ago we had additional notices for such a case and I should search about it, but I clearly remember our teacher explained : If the ball is being hit out of the side line and just drop down from the nearest edge, point is for the opposite player. If the ball jump out approximately on the line of the table or higher after touching the edge - then the umpire has right to call point for the player who has been out of the side line during the hit.

Of course, we had several schemes where everything was explained with examples. I am not going to explain you anything more about rules, before to check it again, because the method of estimation who is the point winner here is connected also with Maths ( Law of tangent lines or something like that (geometry). There is no chance to pretend the point is yours if the ball just go down after hitting the edge and you have been hit it out of side line (nearest).

And yes, I know what's the feeling to be in motion in tt. Belive me I know that much more better than you think. Not sure what's exactly your point here.

According the time of the situation happened - 5 or 10 or 20 years or just in the last day.....It just happened, right? And there will be conclusion after that. I am not talking for fans.
I remember once I made topic how many players are using illegal serves and so many people first said it is hard to estimate if this is cheating or not. Later everyone started to show these illegal serves and to comment them. And somehow players improved. Just a connection. You can accept it if you want.

No doubt ML is the most successful player in TT and his results won't be reached soon again by other player I think. It will be pretty hard. But here I am talking for a point where he complained without any reason. It is not enough to be in motion when the facts are talking enough. I will try to search the rule about this situation.



What i'm trying to tell you is, your claims is only valid on the sense that Ma Long knew for a fact that he hit the ball out the line.

But I'm trying to tell you is, there is a good chance he doesn't know it was out side the line.
So the "facts" you are talking about is because you had replays and Ma Long didn't. He could very well acted based on his feeling.
And in Ma Long's defense, if that was true (the he honestly thought he had a valid call), what you are claiming all just goes down the drain.

You can't argue he did x hours in the sport, so he knew he is out side the line and making some tactical decision. That is just pure speculation without merit.
So since you say you know more than I think you do, I'm sure you can accept the above with ease, since its common sense.

The same applies for let balls too, one play could call, the other might not.
Most players will call it base on feelings. Your scammers would use tactics and with so many videos and footage on Ma Long, I think you need a few more to put him in that whatsapp group.

Let me add, I know  your "rule", I've learnt it from my coaches when I was a kid.
You really don't need to explain to me.
I'm only debating on your assumption that has a some flaws, as you left out motion/feeling and the possibility of Ma Long being innocent (you found him guilty 5 year ago already)


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/16/2022 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 3:27pm
I am a ML fan as I believe most TT players are.  I refuse to believe the ML "needed to" or "wanted to" act in an unsportsman like manner.  Think about it rather than arguing about something (his state of mind) that cannot be verified.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

I am a ML fan as I believe most TT players are.  I refuse to believe the ML "needed to" or "wanted to" act in an unsportsman like manner.  Think about it rather than arguing about something (his state of mind) that cannot be verified.


Of course we all are partly and Ma Long's fans because he is among the best in last decade.
And looking closely, each of us is a fan of some player by some reason. Nothing bad here.
I like very much Timo for his perseverance, athleticism, sportsmanship.
I like Werner Schlager and Kreanga for their backhands, Waldner was so much unpredictable and fun to watch and so on.

But when we are talking for a state of mind, we reach the rules in the end. Table tennis is a true game with emotions. As into each sport, feelings are mixed with the rules. Umpires were pretty clear the point is for Timo.

I accept what ZApenholder wrote as suggestion. My own opinion is also based on my own experience.
And exactly because ML is much better player than us I think he is even better in his so called by ZApenholder "feeling" about his position.
I am not sure, but I saw several years ago another situation like that and the player who argued was even more wrong than Ma Long. Talking again for TOP players.

For a final, should be pretty good if someone have possibility to ask ML about that point.
Do you think he will say : Yes, I was not right? I just had "feeling" I am right despite the umpires gave the point for Timo, but so good Timo refunded me that point. Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 6:35pm
This is such an odd post: bringing up a single point from years ago - where it's not even clear from the camera angle who actually won the point - to insinuate that Ma Long's a cheat.

Are you saying you think he's a cheater? The fact you're still thinking about this and that you only rank him as 'among the best of the last decade' makes me think you really don't like him LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shinshiro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Hello good people!

Edit: Posted this topic after just cleaning my computer from useles files. Then I found that printscreen I made from a match between Timo and Ma Long. Couldn't remeber which one was that exactly until Zeio posted a link to the point. Thanks Zeio! Now I remember correct the situation. Umpires gave the point to Timo, but Ma Long complained, so Timo gave him next point.
A true champion that is Ma Long to has such a behaviour...

But why he wanted to stole that point? And why Timo gave him the next one?
Does Ma Long knows the ITTF Rules?
In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher. Then he has full right to complain. Nothing like that happened, but the ball just dropped. Point is 1000000000% for Timo.
And Ma Long complained. Is this behaviour of a true champion?

Thanks for your comments.



I think part of this discussion is due to this statement:

In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher

I'm not TT rules expert (far from that), but I think if the ball hits the top of the table, even if just by little (top-edge), it is valid.
Assuming that this is true, the question than is: is it possible for the ball to hit the top-edge and go down?
In this situation where ML hit, it is possible. He hit almost palalell to the table. 
If the position of the ball when he hit were too far to the side, than it would be easier to assume ball down = Timo's point. 
But he is very close to the side of the table. It can hit the top-edge of the table very lightly and still go down.
I don't see anything wrong/unethical from ML




Edited by shinshiro - 05/16/2022 at 10:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/16/2022 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by shinshiro shinshiro wrote:


I think part of this discussion is due to this statement:

In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher

I'm not TT rules expert (far from that), but I think if the ball hits the top of the table, even if just by little (top-edge), it is valid.
Assuming that this is true, the question than is: is it possible for the ball to hit the top-edge and go down?
In this situation where ML hit, it is possible. He hit almost palalell to the table. 
If the position of the ball when he hit were too far to the side, than it would be easier to assume ball down = Timo's point. 
But he is very close to the side of the table. It can hit the top-edge of the table very lightly and still go down.
I don't see anything wrong/unethical from ML




That is another problem with this post from OP.

This is not a ITTF / TT Rule, it is only a theory.
A theory that is not strong enough to be used as a rule, in the official rule books
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:05am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I think part of this discussion is due to this statement:

In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher

That is another problem with this post from OP.

This is not a ITTF / TT Rule, it is only a theory.
A theory that is not strong enough to be used as a rule, in the official rule books

So, how the umpires gave the point for Timo? By which rule then?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:16am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I think part of this discussion is due to this statement:

In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher

That is another problem with this post from OP.

This is not a ITTF / TT Rule, it is only a theory.
A theory that is not strong enough to be used as a rule, in the official rule books

So, how the umpires gave the point for Timo? By which rule then?


Umpires are human and they can easily make a mistake.
Regarding if it is the right call or not (that is another question).

So you asked me, how the umpires  gave the point to Timo - my answer: the umpires believe it was side and not edge.

The umpire used the below to award the point
2.10.1 Unless the rally is a let, a player shall score a point
2.10.1.2 if an opponent fails to make a correct return

No theory required, umpires just do as they feel is correct, even if they made the wrong call.
That's life and no cheating involve from the umpire.

umpires are so human that, even scorecard errors, not identifying service faults in doubles etc etc etc.
That is why,  TECHNOLOGY  is required.
Otherwise, too many forum posts about cheating.... whereby it could really just be innocent.
Thing really is border line cyber bullying


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/17/2022 at 4:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:16am
Originally posted by shinshiro shinshiro wrote:



I think part of this discussion is due to this statement:
In this situation the ball must jump on the level of the table or higher
I'm not TT rules expert (far from that), but I think if the ball hits the top of the table, even if just by little (top-edge), it is valid.


Of course, but it depends the position of the player's body and ball according the side lines. That's what I am trying to explain from the start ot the topic. Did Ma long realize he is out with the ball together of the side lines, or he still thought he is "in". That's the question. At his place I will never ask for a point until I see the ball is jumping at the table's surface level, minimum. That definitely didn't happen. Ball just dropped and he was out of the side lines. Should be interesting to know which rule the umpires have used for this point if such a thing don't exist in the official ittf rules.


Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 4:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:21am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Umpires are human and they can easily make a mistake.
Regarding if it is the right call or not (that is another question).

So you asked me, how the umpires  gave the point to Timo - my answer: the umpires believe it was side and not edge.

No theory required, umpires just do as they feel, even if they made the wrong call.
That's life and no cheating involve from the umpire.

umpires are so human that, even scorecard errors, not identifying service faults in doubles etc etc etc.
That is why,  TECHNOLOGY  is required.
Otherwise, too many forum posts about cheating.... whereby it could really just be innocent.
Thing really is border line cyber bullying


Too much sense and feelings here. By these answers I think the umpires definitely must be equipped with a crystal balls, because if everything is connected with "feelings", then they don't need any video Replay.
You believe there is no rule involved in this situation? Just feelings?



Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 4:23am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:23am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

Umpires are human and they can easily make a mistake.
Regarding if it is the right call or not (that is another question).

So you asked me, how the umpires  gave the point to Timo - my answer: the umpires believe it was side and not edge.

No theory required, umpires just do as they feel, even if they made the wrong call.
That's life and no cheating involve from the umpire.

umpires are so human that, even scorecard errors, not identifying service faults in doubles etc etc etc.
That is why,  TECHNOLOGY  is required.
Otherwise, too many forum posts about cheating.... whereby it could really just be innocent.
Thing really is border line cyber bullying


Too much sense and feelings here. By these answers I think the umpires definitely must be equipped with a crystal balls, because if everything is connected with "feelings", then they don't need any video reply.
You believe there is no rule involved in this situation? Just feelings?



The only rule is here:
2.10.1 Unless the rally is a let, a player shall score a point
2.10.1.2 if an opponent fails to make a correct return

the rest is human decision making, which is bound for human errors.
you sound suprised that umpires can make errors?
Do you want to vote against technology? You are making a claim that I trust feeling and don't need any video reply.

Human can make mistake, Ma Long, Timo, Umpire, everyone on earth can make mistakes.
Honest mistake is not cheating though
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:35am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

The only rule is here:
2.10.1 Unless the rally is a let, a player shall score a point
2.10.1.2 if an opponent fails to make a correct return

the rest is human decision making, which is bound for human errors.
you sound suprised that umpires can make errors?
Do you want to vote against technology? You are making a claim that I trust feeling and don't need any video reply.

Human can make mistake, Ma Long, Timo, Umpire, everyone on earth can make mistakes.
Honest mistake is not cheating though


I agree for mistakes, they are possible.
I already explained you for additional advices we had 15 years ago for such a situations. I am surprised these advices are still not in use in the official rules, because they are at 1st stage logical and 2nd, no one will argue then like ML did. In this case your statement is connected about the fact ML was in motion and he didn't realize where the ball in fact is before his stroke.

Of course! Too many situations in tt could be registered by video replay for correct decision, but it is still not arranged. Why? To keep the "feelings" for human's mistake ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 4:40am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

The only rule is here:
2.10.1 Unless the rally is a let, a player shall score a point
2.10.1.2 if an opponent fails to make a correct return

the rest is human decision making, which is bound for human errors.
you sound suprised that umpires can make errors?
Do you want to vote against technology? You are making a claim that I trust feeling and don't need any video reply.

Human can make mistake, Ma Long, Timo, Umpire, everyone on earth can make mistakes.
Honest mistake is not cheating though


I agree for mistakes, they are possible.
I already explained you for additional advices we had 15 years ago for such a situations. I am surprised these advices are still not in use in the official rules, because they are at 1st stage logical and 2nd, no one will argue then like ML did. In this case your statement is connected about the fact ML was in motion and he didn't realize where the ball in fact is before his stroke.

Of course! Too many situations in tt could be registered by video replay for correct decision, but it is still not arranged. Why? To keep the "feelings" for human's mistake ...



No, because it is very expensive to implement. TT is a poor sport remember.
They already started with service toss angle, and how many places uses that? A rich tournament uses that.

Other than costs, the time/technology required for a replay is another issue.

So I think please stop assumptions. They are trying to make things better, but it isn't simple.
So until then, I as a Coach, train kids to face umpire human errors, and don't be pissed about it, and continue the game.

Let me leave you with this 'yellow' card offense.
player is a student of one of my mates.




Edited by ZApenholder - 05/17/2022 at 4:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 5:13am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

No, because it is very expensive to implement. TT is a poor sport remember.
They already started with service toss angle, and how many places uses that? A rich tournament uses that.

Other than costs, the time/technology required for a replay is another issue.

So I think please stop assumptions. They are trying to make things better, but it isn't simple.
So until then, I as a Coach, train kids to face umpire human errors, and don't be pissed about it, and continue the game.

Let me leave you with this 'yellow' card offense.
player is a student of one of my mates.


 

I am not talking for assumptions but for a facts about ML's position together with the ball. Out of side line. No need to repeat the same each time.
Each student with Math could tell you if such a hit is part of the table surface or table's side line's surface.
But surely Ma Long doesn't has any imagination where is the ball posted during the hit, okay.

Once I was eyewitness how an European champion started badly arguing with his opponent and umpire for a situation he was NOT right. He was right by "feelings" as you mentioned early, but not and by rules. He just put up his hand during rally and returned several balls with a hand in this position and after the 3r or 4th ball he just catch the ball in hand LOLLOLLOL Of course umpire counted the ball for his opponent, because he has no right to do so during rally. That's by law. But the match was interrupted for near 20-30 minutes, because this EU champion was not familiar with the ITTF rules. I can share many curious things more, but here the topic is for Ma Long's behaviour. I think situation is clear after the long discussion and several points of view. Thank you very much.

Why the player in your video received yellow card? For his leg hitting the ball, right?
Anyway, the serving of the other player was terrible illegal. If you are trying to show me umpire's mistakes I will tell you for a case where I was damaged by umpire counting a ball out (about 10cm far of the table's edge) for a table edge point. I gone for the ball and when I was back I found result is not correct. Something more - the player (my opponent) said it was an edge, no matter the ball was a way too far from the table. But his reaction started after the umpire's decision. It was European championship. So, I don't want to keep the feelings for umpire's mistakes because most of them are on purpose. Same I think for ML's behaviour here, according my own opinion.


Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 5:39am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 6:08am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

That is why,  TECHNOLOGY  is required.

Welcome to the modern world.

Badminton
https://youtu.be/AQHib8lpTC8
https://youtu.be/MtM1yIZ8t3I
https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/hawkeye-not-infallible.171104/
Quote It is important to realise, no matter how accepted it is by players, and the popularity with spectators, that the technology is probability based, a predictive system. For instance, the second screen-grab is the actual picture, in technology parlance, it was the first measurement, the green-screen graphics is the result of a 'secondary measurement' that Hawk-Eye provided.


Tennis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot3GGJ3tWbw
https://tennishead.net/hawk-eye-is-not-at-all-accurate-gilles-simon-blasts-electronic-line-calling-and-umpiring-standards/
Quote Since the outbreak of the coronavirus, most tournaments have opted for a fully electronic line-calling system to restrict the amount of people on court.

It has generally be well-received by players, but Simon has expressed his disdain, saying it does not work and leads to a general decline in umpiring standards.

“The main problem is that it’s not at all accurate,” Simon told the French press. “That’s the big, big problem.

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/roland-garros/2021/french-open-hawkeye-not-100-accurate-forget-on-umpire-controversy-over-barbora-krejcikova-match-poin_sto8368552/story.shtml
Quote It’s a long debate we’ve had before – the image Hawk-Eye shows and the mark that actually shows on the court can actually be different. If the ball touches the line and on Hawk-Eye it looks out should we show it on TV while the system is not 100% accurate?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 6:15am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

That is why,  TECHNOLOGY  is required.

Welcome to the modern world.

Badminton
https://youtu.be/AQHib8lpTC8
https://youtu.be/MtM1yIZ8t3I
https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/hawkeye-not-infallible.171104/
Quote It is important to realise, no matter how accepted it is by players, and the popularity with spectators, that the technology is probability based, a predictive system. For instance, the second screen-grab is the actual picture, in technology parlance, it was the first measurement, the green-screen graphics is the result of a 'secondary measurement' that Hawk-Eye provided.


Tennis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot3GGJ3tWbw
https://tennishead.net/hawk-eye-is-not-at-all-accurate-gilles-simon-blasts-electronic-line-calling-and-umpiring-standards/
Quote Since the outbreak of the coronavirus, most tournaments have opted for a fully electronic line-calling system to restrict the amount of people on court.

It has generally be well-received by players, but Simon has expressed his disdain, saying it does not work and leads to a general decline in umpiring standards.

“The main problem is that it’s not at all accurate,” Simon told the French press. “That’s the big, big problem.

https://www.eurosport.com/tennis/roland-garros/2021/french-open-hawkeye-not-100-accurate-forget-on-umpire-controversy-over-barbora-krejcikova-match-poin_sto8368552/story.shtml
Quote It’s a long debate we’ve had before – the image Hawk-Eye shows and the mark that actually shows on the court can actually be different. If the ball touches the line and on Hawk-Eye it looks out should we show it on TV while the system is not 100% accurate?


Yep, I know the problems of it too.

I ready there  "decline in umpiring stands" lol. without technology, there is a big decline already
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 6:49am
Lot of information here.
Seems technology is also not solution of all the problems.
Okay, maybe I must change my topic again.
This time it will be : Did Ma Long has the right "feeling" here? Handshake Beer

ZApenholder: In a match on Deaflympics Games in 2017 one polish player received red card from umpire for such a leg hitting the ball when result was 2:2 in the countergame. But that happened after I asked umpire what this player is doing and has he rights to do so? Then Umpire said Yes, you are right and just gave him red card Confused Then Polish coach started to argue with me WHY I HAVE TALKED to the umpire? I told him I just asked question, nothing else.

When we are talking for experience about rules it seems I have some. That's why I asked for your own and found such a rule (after 15 years I was educated with the possibilities in such a situation) is not involved.
So, what's the conclusion? Rules are definitely not perfect and no one is looking to make them better, even with technology integrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:00am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

So, what's the conclusion? Rules are definitely not perfect and no one is looking to make them better, even with technology integrated.


ITTF handbook is indeed very problematic, many grey areas and no where in the handbook does it say you cannot kick the ball.

at most, it is misbehavior:

3.5.2 Misbehaviour
3.5.2.1 Players and coaches or other advisers shall refrain from behaviour that may
unfairly affect an opponent, offend spectators or bring the sport into
disrepute, such as abusive language, deliberately breaking the ball or hitting
it out of the playing area, kicking the table or surrounds and disrespect of
match officials

So my video, is it misbehavior? maybe a warning offence, not yellow card.

problem is:
1) unclear rules
2) interpretations of such unclear rules
3) umpire makes final call and no one can change it

also you bounce up or down rule, is not a rule. Its a theory.
the rules i'm talking about is what is documented in the ITTF handbook - of which the umpires need to use when  umpiring. So the only issue is my interpretations vs umpires interpretations. And trust me, there are lots of times where the interpretations by the umpire is very questionable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:04am
Let me show you one point made by Samsonov. No one complains here who is the point winner, right?
Samsonov is out of side line, but the ball is touching the next one of the table's edges and not the nearside. But once I saw near the same situation with another chinese player. His return in defense with upper spin touch the edge from nearside and he started to argue badly who is the point winner when for everyone it was pretty clear he is not right. And we are talking again for a "feeling", nothing common with any logic about ball position and table, Maths (Geometry, tangents and so on).
So ITTF don't want to make rules for these situations and still rely on player's or umpire's feeling.



Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 7:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:05am
umpire rocks

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:09am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:


So ITTF don't want to make rules for these situations and still rely on player's or umpire's feeling.



you going to confuse things further.
(a non bad behavior)kicking is not in the handbook, but its a yellow/red card offense, because its bad behavior.

see how the umpires can spin the rules
more than we can spin the ball


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/17/2022 at 7:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:10am
Yes, definitely that "feeling" of the umpire was wrong. Kasumi didn't hit with her legs the ball by purpose as the Polish player did in my case. He even played several leg kicks with the ball in the air, that was the reason I asked the umpire what this player is doing. Then he received red card, but here with Kasumi is not the same case.
Exactly for these cases made by purpose by Umpires I am talking about.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LongLips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:17am

"I am not talking for assumptions but for a facts about ML's position together with the ball. Out of side line. No need to repeat the same each time. "

Saying that his body and the ball were outside of the lines proves absolutely nothing. Here is a well-know example which I'm sure you wouldn't argue should be FZD's point.

From a camera angle that is above the table, as we have for this point you're talking about, it's almost impossible to tell what vertical trajectory the ball bounced at. That's where ML clearly disagreed with the umpire. But you can stop mentioning where the ball or his body were at point of contact


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:23am
Originally posted by LongLips LongLips wrote:


"I am not talking for assumptions but for a facts about ML's position together with the ball. Out of side line. No need to repeat the same each time. "

Saying that his body and the ball were outside of the lines proves absolutely nothing. Here is a well-know example which I'm sure you wouldn't argue should be FZD's point.

From a camera angle that is above the table, as we have for this point you're talking about, it's almost impossible to tell what vertical trajectory the ball bounced at. That's where ML clearly disagreed with the umpire. But you can stop mentioning where the ball or his body were at point of contact




Not sure what's your point here. Can you give me link of the situation on the right seconds?
 Edit: I watched that point. Nothing common with the point discussed here.
No one hit the edge and no complain here do you understand?


Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 7:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:30am
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

Each clever umpire should declare "replay" because of uncertainity.
Most memorable case of disconsent happened between Persson and Samsonov at Olympics 2008.


If I was Umpire at Persson VS Samsonov, Persson should be fired out of the competition.
I remember he changed the result on the umpire's score by himself LOLLOLLOL

For these things I am talking here, when the players have the "feeling" they are right and they are NOT.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 7:44am
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:


you going to confuse things further.
(a non bad behavior)kicking is not in the handbook, but its a yellow/red card offense, because its bad behavior.

see how the umpires can spin the rules
more than we can spin the ball


No, I am not going to confuse anything. I want only to see the truth. Sometimes the truth is painful.
That rally had probably near the same structure with the difference Samsonov was in active moving versus counterloop.
Players on that level are pretty familiar who is the winner in these situations and here we are not talking for any "feeling". Do you think Samsonov is not familiar the point here is NOT for him? Same and for Ma Long.
That situation was painful for each Samsonov fan in the past. After they did repeat of the video everyone including Samsonov saw clearly it was side and not edge, but what he did? Agreed to play again his lost point. Is this correct?
That's why I don't understand both players behaviour. Timo knows point was for him, but gave to Ma the next one. At least they are at competition, not in a friendly match.



Edited by kolevtt - 05/17/2022 at 7:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 8:25am
Originally posted by kolevtt kolevtt wrote:

Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:


you going to confuse things further.
(a non bad behavior)kicking is not in the handbook, but its a yellow/red card offense, because its bad behavior.

see how the umpires can spin the rules
more than we can spin the ball


No, I am not going to confuse anything. I want only to see the truth. Sometimes the truth is painful.
That rally had probably near the same structure with the difference Samsonov was in active moving versus counterloop.
Players on that level are pretty familiar who is the winner in these situations and here we are not talking for any "feeling". Do you think Samsonov is not familiar the point here is NOT for him? Same and for Ma Long.
That situation was painful for each Samsonov fan in the past. After they did repeat of the video everyone including Samsonov saw clearly it was side and not edge, but what he did? Agreed to play again his lost point. Is this correct?
That's why I don't understand both players behaviour. Timo knows point was for him, but gave to Ma the next one. At least they are at competition, not in a friendly match.



it all comes to the quality of the umpire and tools/resources for them.
now in most TT, there is no reply or technology, so the umpire is stuck and need to take a 50-50 call.

replaying the point is normally the old fashion way to settle disputes  in amateur level and it works!

Until the day that quality umpire is backed with resources (these umpires get paid peanuts if you didn't know - only cover the hotel/meals basically) of maybe tv reply for starters, having incorrect calls made during the match is going to happen many more times.

Now no matter the player, the adrenaline speed of the game and the instant reaction/time doesn't allow for players to think too much.
If they were to watch the tv replay, they could start process the information, but as you and I all know, if you in play, you believe what you see.
and pros are taught to live with calls not going your way.
most of the time, it is the amateurs that can't let go a bad call and unfortunately, bad umpire calls does ruin tournaments.

so umpire quality, resources, maybe our grand children will have something better than us
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kolevtt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/17/2022 at 8:54am

If more people are talking for these things preliminary, more discussions to be made in advance and during the matches, maybe we can partly support umpire's decisions in the future.

Anyway, who won the match between Kasumi and Jia from 2012 after that ugly behaviour of the umpire? That was 100% with purpose by the umpire. I watched Kasumi's movement several times.

But people are different, that's why we must be talking/writing/discussing. Smile
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