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End of Long Pips Era?

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    Posted: 03/07/2019 at 1:35pm
  • To what extent has the poly ball and other factors diminished the usefulness of long pips rubbers?
  • Are any of them still effective at reversal and disruption?
  • Will Antis make a comeback?
  • What are the best options for players who rely on reversal and disruption (other than becoming a two-winged looper)?



Edited by tommyzai - 03/07/2019 at 1:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 1:56pm
I am very interested in these questions as well. I am looking also on OOAK as well as they have a large number of pips players. 
Options for older players:
1. Seniors tournaments
2. Regular tournaments with LP or anti 
3. Double inverted focusing on a quick ending of points-especially aggressive point ending serve returns and killer good serves
4. Retirement
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MydasDiablo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 2:25pm
OX LP game is very tough with the new ball, pretty much impossible to block or chop decent players off the table. Liu Song style with 90% forehand attack is one option, using an OX LP you can attack with like Wobbler, Curl P-H etc is another good option as you need to be able to put it back faster to stop them smacking you off. 

Sponged LP game is also tougher to chop players off the table, those that can use really grippy pips like FL3 seem to be having the most success with the new ball. If you have the fitness and footwork then this is still a viable style, albeit less effective than before at higher levels. 

Anti is making a comeback, Dr Neubauer ABS 2 in 2.3mm and 2.5mm thickness seems to be the current hot topic. You can definitely build a dangerous game around an anti like this, but I still think at higher levels you will still need a killer forehand with which to win most of your points.

Blocking people off doesn't work for me at all since the plastic ball. If I don't attack with my long pips or forehand early in the point then I get smacked off pretty quick. I have almost lost interest in the game and have been considering dropping down divisions and going double inverted. My last gasp attempt to salvage my game is playing with attacking OX LP (Wobbler) which I am going to try over the next few months. You can also play this style with Dr Neubauer Aggressor in OX.

Dr Neubauer has recently released a new LP called trouble maker, first returns on those that have tested it are very positive and they are saying it is the most similar pip to the old frictionless pips they have used in terms of how it blocks the ball really short even off hard fast loops. Sounds very promising for a blocking style, reversal is still far below the old days but could be the revolution people have been waiting for.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 2:52pm
LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 3:06pm
I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
he uses DAWEI 388-D1 (green package) also these area great blocking pips, weird to play against... give them a try
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote notfound123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:20pm
I play long pips on a thin sponge and I could care less which ball is used - celluloid, poly or rubber.
I don't rely on lp winning me points (i.e. deception) - I just play active game with chopping on one side and looping on the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.




Very good point concerning P1R. I tested it out on Monday and it was not disruptive at all but what stood out is its poor control. Curl P4 is a lot better in my experience with the poly balls I play with on a regular basis, namely Joola Flash and Tibhar SYNTT NG40+.


Also, as was mentioned, you have got to play more actively and you can still play effectively.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:03pm
One thing  for sure is that ABS balls diminished greatly effects of anti and long pips. The only hope is that manufacturers come up with new material of topshit and the right combination with dumping sponge. ABS is harder and its surface not as smooth as the other type and that creates a problem for reversal.

Edited by osmar92 - 03/07/2019 at 7:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.

Im pretty sure the aforementioned pip is illegal anyway. 
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Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by taczkid taczkid wrote:

I know a guy who I think takes ox lp and sinks them fully into Falco booster.. then he leaves them for a month or so,,, whne he plays with them u never know what ball is coming back, crazy spin, wobble etc
That would be illegal and his pips probably then exceed the max length allowed.

Im pretty sure the aforementioned pip is illegal anyway. 

388-d1 is illegal? Or are you referring to the treatment (no argument there...)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 8:28pm
My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

Edited by Pushblocker - 03/07/2019 at 8:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

have you given any consideration to anti or tried it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

have you given any consideration to anti or tried it?
tried 5 differnt antis and can't play too well with them..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2019 at 10:39pm
Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..



I was playing against a guy who plays with dornenglanz2 and is not easy to deal with that LP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:28am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

I bet the ones who can beat you now are those who can easily flat hit.
and those who have more difficulties whren playing you are the ones who keep on looping.


Edited by kakapo - 03/08/2019 at 12:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:56am
There are hardly any younger players in Saigon playing with long pimples. Its almost 100% older guys here using lp. Also, I think its difficult to find a coach who knows how to coach long pimples very well here. There are some good players here who use short pimples. I don't find short pimples to be any less effective in the plastic ball error. Short pimple may even be more effective these days. The plastic ball seems to favor a fast direct game and seems to be good for hitters. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:14am
Originally posted by ericd937 ericd937 wrote:

There are hardly any younger players in Saigon playing with long pimples. Its almost 100% older guys here using lp. Also, I think its difficult to find a coach who knows how to coach long pimples very well here. There are some good players here who use short pimples. I don't find short pimples to be any less effective in the plastic ball error. Short pimple may even be more effective these days. The plastic ball seems to favor a fast direct game and seems to be good for hitters. 

Know any penholders and what pips are they using?
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Penhold isnt that popular in Vietnam. I can't even remember that last time I played one. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 5:54am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

My average rating since the poly ball has stayed about the same but the rating fluctuates more.  Within 3 years my rating has fluctuated frequently by 100 points up and down. Before the poly ball, I was mid 2100's for years within +/- 30 points.. My average is still mid 2100's but I frequently drop to high 2000's but always bounce back to high 2100's.. Players who could have never beaten me with celluloid can beat me now.. but there are also players whom I didn't beat before the poly ball but now I beat them.

I bet the ones who can beat you now are those who can easily flat hit.
and those who have more difficulties whren playing you are the ones who keep on looping.

Anybody who can keep the spin low does a lot better against me than before the poly ball.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 5:55am
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Looking at my rating history, I was trending more towards upper 2100's while now, I average mid 2100's.. Maybe a 15 - 30 points lower average rating..



I was playing against a guy who plays with dornenglanz2 and is not easy to deal with that LP
Never played with or against it... I have tried Dornenglanz (first version) and the trajectory on it is too high when passively blocking.. It's not a rubber suited for passive blocking.
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Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:10am
What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:46am
Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

I would guess it's the new material and texture as the size difference nominal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.

Do you have a video of someone using that style against a decent opponent? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote osmar92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by osmar92 osmar92 wrote:

What I can tell is that the surface of abs ball is more rough so it grabs topshit thus reversal diminished. Also it is harder and old dumpening sponge cannot handle it properly. So combination of mentioned factors killed to a certain degree the reversal effect  I guess manufacturers will find proper composition. 
I think that the larger size also contributes to less spin.. Not sure if the main difference is the surface texture or the larger size....

Larger size is not a great factor as the ones I mentioned. Even the last edition of balls before abs is manageable for me  but abs just lowers my level like 100 points. My rating still dud not suffer that much but it takes much more effort. Where I could easily destroy opponents now I have to work much harder. And it is much more difficult to play against strong opponents. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hozuki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2019 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by Hozuki Hozuki wrote:

LP players cannot just rely on spin reversal anymore.
Variation in spin, placement and speed is key now.

The disruptive effect has increased, as ABS balls have more gears. On grippy table surface backspin might decelerate immensely or jump at you. The lack of pace and spin after table contact makes consistent looping a nightmare.
Just don't play pips like P1-R, because too predictable. Grass Dtecs is much harder to play against.

I do not agree on OX being less viable. Just make every ball as slow, short and low as possible. Impossible to loop that, so you force your opponent into a pushing game where he usually loses. Needs quite optimized equipment though.



Up to what level is that supposed to work at? A basic backhand flick (i.e. over the table "loop") would negate that style very easily. Especially since the ABS ball tends to bounce higher already. Or forehand flip etc. 

If you can beat somebody by doing nothing but short and low no spin blocks, I would have to imagine their level is not very high, or for some reason they've never learned to counter that one basic approach. 


You can only play a slow flip against such balls, and they are used to blocking that back as well.
By varying placement and sometimes length, they will force you out of position and eventually you give them a high push which they can smash. It's a very basic style but nobody trains against it so it becomes effective even on higher levels.

Do you have a video of someone using that style against a decent opponent? 


Sadly no... I know some people who fit that category, but I have not filmed them. It was just not beautiful enough, haha. But I'll keep it in mind and if I find something I'll direct it to you.
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