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ESN alternatives to D05, T05H

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2019 at 12:04pm
To bring things back on track somewhat (apologies for the rant there) - as much as I like R50, I do find the topsheet hard work sometimes for spin because of the hardness.  The top end is excellent, and the hardness makes things super linear and simple for drives, but I have to be really on it all the time for looping.  A few people have commented that they lightly boost these 50+ sponges, so I have to wonder if the trend leans that way (or emerges from it, if you see what I mean).  Plastic ball leads to harder sponges because there's more to be gained from boosting than before.

As an aside, I've been using Hexer Powergrip for a few weeks now and it's excellent for spin...but I'd love to try a 50 degree sponge under it.
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Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

To bring things back on track somewhat (apologies for the rant there) - as much as I like R50, I do find the topsheet hard work sometimes for spin because of the hardness.  The top end is excellent, and the hardness makes things super linear and simple for drives, but I have to be really on it all the time for looping.  A few people have commented that they lightly boost these 50+ sponges, so I have to wonder if the trend leans that way (or emerges from it, if you see what I mean).  Plastic ball leads to harder sponges because there's more to be gained from boosting than before.

As an aside, I've been using Hexer Powergrip for a few weeks now and it's excellent for spin...but I'd love to try a 50 degree sponge under it.

Yes, boosting R50 with one layer is where it's at...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2019 at 8:00pm
Boosting R50 is great with 2 thin layers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Currently playing extremely well with:
Andro Treiber CI 90g
Nittaku Fastarc G-1 2.0
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2019 at 9:30am
Ooooo you're all so awful.  But I like you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/11/2019 at 10:53am
Haven't tried very many of the 50 Degree plus ESN's but The Rhyzer 50 pro is a great rubber and very boost friendly from using it a while. Donic Z1 another good rubber maybe a bit softer feeling and suited a bit more to backhand.
 
Couldn't recommend them enough. It's great that there are now so many good options to play with.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2019 at 8:04pm
Over the past few weeks, I have tried:
  1. MX-P 50
  2. Rasanter R50
  3. Rhyzer 50
  4. Gewo Nexxus EL Pro Hard 50
Winner: Gewo.

Of course, this is for my personal preference for hardness level for FH rubber, etc.

It corrects what I saw were important deficiencies in the EL Pro 48: that of the throw angle reduction when you increase power. It also has more power and spin than the EL Pro 48. Only thing it does worse is serving (for which, IMHO, EL Pro 48 was the best rubber I have used).

Also, the topsheet of EL Pro 50 Hard (29-021) is different from that of the EL Pro 48 (29-019). It is stiffer and more suitable for a power game.

I haven't done a detailed comparison with Dignics or T05H, but the EL Pro 50 Hard is the best ESN rubber I have ever used.




Edited by slevin - 07/17/2019 at 9:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunkeelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2019 at 10:28pm
There are none. Tenergy is tenergy because it's tenergy. No rubber out there is as forgiving as t05, there's spinner rubber, faster rubber, harder rubber. Tenergy is regarded as #1 rubber is because of it's forgiveness, even if you are out of position you can still create a quality shot consistently. Any other rubber people mentioned in this post are trash. If you are above 1800ish, it's around time you switch to tenergy,  the amount of dwell time it gives will give you positive feed back and improve your technique. Trash rubbers like r47, g-1, bluefire, xioms etc... will create negative feedback and stagnate your improvement. 

What I mean by positive feedback. When you use tenergy, you feel like you can do anything, you will start to do more and more and start develop your ball feel. Other ESN rubber will simply straight out miss, overshoots or down the net it goes, it creates a negative feedback and make you scare to try to do more. 

I am assuming this forum are adults amps only. If you are training everyday, it doesn't matter what rubber you are using because you develop your feel via multiball and repetitiveness, but lots of us do not have that luxury. 

Also durability, a used t05 might look old but it's still very playable. Rubbers like mxp,xiom everytime i change a new sheet i was like "oh wow that's very different"


Edited by hunkeelin - 07/17/2019 at 10:31pm
USATT: 2047 as of 2019
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ericd937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 1:21am
Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

There are none. Tenergy is tenergy because it's tenergy. No rubber out there is as forgiving as t05, there's spinner rubber, faster rubber, harder rubber. Tenergy is regarded as #1 rubber is because of it's forgiveness, even if you are out of position you can still create a quality shot consistently. Any other rubber people mentioned in this post are trash. If you are above 1800ish, it's around time you switch to tenergy,  the amount of dwell time it gives will give you positive feed back and improve your technique. Trash rubbers like r47, g-1, bluefire, xioms etc... will create negative feedback and stagnate your improvement. 

What I mean by positive feedback. When you use tenergy, you feel like you can do anything, you will start to do more and more and start develop your ball feel. Other ESN rubber will simply straight out miss, overshoots or down the net it goes, it creates a negative feedback and make you scare to try to do more. 
that
I am assuming this forum are adults amps only. If you are training everyday, it doesn't matter what rubber you are using because you develop your feel via multiball and repetitiveness, but lots of us do not have that luxury. 

Also durability, a used t05 might look old but it's still very playable. Rubbers like mxp,xiom everytime i change a new sheet i was like "oh wow that's very different"

I think one could make a good argument that Dignics is as good or better than Tenergy. 😊
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Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

There are none. Tenergy is tenergy because it's tenergy. No rubber out there is as forgiving as t05, there's spinner rubber, faster rubber, harder rubber. Tenergy is regarded as #1 rubber is because of it's forgiveness, even if you are out of position you can still create a quality shot consistently. Any other rubber people mentioned in this post are trash. If you are above 1800ish, it's around time you switch to tenergy,  the amount of dwell time it gives will give you positive feed back and improve your technique. Trash rubbers like r47, g-1, bluefire, xioms etc... will create negative feedback and stagnate your improvement. 

What I mean by positive feedback. When you use tenergy, you feel like you can do anything, you will start to do more and more and start develop your ball feel. Other ESN rubber will simply straight out miss, overshoots or down the net it goes, it creates a negative feedback and make you scare to try to do more. 

I am assuming this forum are adults amps only. If you are training everyday, it doesn't matter what rubber you are using because you develop your feel via multiball and repetitiveness, but lots of us do not have that luxury. 

Also durability, a used t05 might look old but it's still very playable. Rubbers like mxp,xiom everytime i change a new sheet i was like "oh wow that's very different"

Either a troll job or clearly not up to the times. 

ESN has advanced a lot over the times. Most ESN rubbers back in the day were 45 deg and frankly not that good. That has changed. I can't use T05 precisely because it is unforgiving and low dwell relative to ESN rubbers (like EL Pro 48) or does not grip the ABS ball as good (though, Dignics does). 

You live in the US, do you? The top players here generally have better financial resources to use any rubber they want relative to players from most other parts of the world. If T05 is the best, then that is what they'd use.

Back in the day, practically every player on the US men's national team (Kanak, Adam Hugh, Tim Wang, etc) used T05 on FH.

Now, how many players on the men's national team use Tenergy 05 on FH? Take for example the team for the 2019 PanAm championships that has just been announced a week ago?

The answer is precisely zero.

What about the women? One out of four (the weakest one).

That does not mean that Butterfly isn't good - T05H & Dignics are great & clearly better options on FH than T05. But then, you throw your 'forgiveness' argument out of the window. And my contention is that the new, hard ESN stuff is a better competitor to these hard rubbers than the old 45 deg sh!t was to T05. I have six sheets of Dignics lying around and can't bring myself around to use even one of them with so much quality for around $35 available.




Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 9:10am
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Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by hunkeelin hunkeelin wrote:

There are none. Tenergy is tenergy because it's tenergy. No rubber out there is as forgiving as t05, there's spinner rubber, faster rubber, harder rubber. Tenergy is regarded as #1 rubber is because of it's forgiveness, even if you are out of position you can still create a quality shot consistently. Any other rubber people mentioned in this post are trash. If you are above 1800ish, it's around time you switch to tenergy,  the amount of dwell time it gives will give you positive feed back and improve your technique. Trash rubbers like r47, g-1, bluefire, xioms etc... will create negative feedback and stagnate your improvement. 

What I mean by positive feedback. When you use tenergy, you feel like you can do anything, you will start to do more and more and start develop your ball feel. Other ESN rubber will simply straight out miss, overshoots or down the net it goes, it creates a negative feedback and make you scare to try to do more. 

I am assuming this forum are adults amps only. If you are training everyday, it doesn't matter what rubber you are using because you develop your feel via multiball and repetitiveness, but lots of us do not have that luxury. 

Also durability, a used t05 might look old but it's still very playable. Rubbers like mxp,xiom everytime i change a new sheet i was like "oh wow that's very different"

Either a troll job or clearly not up to the times. 

ESN has advanced a lot over the times. Most ESN rubbers back in the day were 45 deg and frankly not that good. That has changed. I can't use T05 precisely because it is unforgiving and low dwell relative to ESN rubbers (like EL Pro 48) or does not grip the ABS ball as good (though, Dignics does). 

You live in the US, do you? The top players here generally have better financial resources to use any rubber they want relative to players from most other parts of the world. If T05 is the best, then that is what they'd use.

Back in the day, practically every player on the US men's national team (Kanak, Adam Hugh, Tim Wang, etc) used T05 on FH.

Now, how many players on the men's national team use Tenergy 05 on FH? Take for example the one for the 2019 PanAm championships that has just been announced?

The answer is precisely zero.

What about the women? One out of four (the weakest one).

That does not mean that Butterfly isn't good - T05H & Dignics are great & clearly better options on FH than T05. But then, you throw your 'forgiveness' argument out of the window. And my contention is that the new, hard ESN stuff is a better competitor to these hard rubbers than the old 45 deg sh!t was to T05. I have six sheets of Dignics lying around and can't bring myself around to use even one of them with so much quality for around $35 available.




Regarding the national team comment - most of them are using Hurricane, not ESN rubbers, except for those who are JOOLA sponsored.
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Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Regarding the national team comment - most of them are using Hurricane, not ESN rubbers, except for those who are JOOLA sponsored.

On the men's side, only 1 of the 4 always used H3N on FH. Another (NK) was a perennial T05 user whose level jumped a few levels (especially in his serve, return of serve & short game) after he switched to H3N on both sides of his HL5. And the best player also was a perennial T05 user who switched to a harder, better, 'less forgiving' rubber. The 4th player has been the scourge of all chinese coaches on the East coast & has grown up using Joola rubbers since he was a kid.

Even in the international circuit, even Dima was recently photographed using Dignics both sides. Timo changed from a T05 FH. So did Harimoto, WCT, Lin Yun Ju and the others. At this level, it is very hard to force change but it happened. Even on BH, so many players (like Ding Ning, Lin Gaoyuan, Dima, LYJ, Harimoto, etc) switched away from T05.

So, yes, in a nutshell, T05 is good (was better with the old ball) but not the end-all be-all.

Anyways, sorry for the digression from the main thread topic.


Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 9:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 9:35am
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Regarding the national team comment - most of them are using Hurricane, not ESN rubbers, except for those who are JOOLA sponsored.

On the men's side, only 1 of the 4 always used H3N on FH. Another (NK) was a perennial T05 user whose level jumped a few levels (especially in his serve, return of serve & short game) after he switched to H3N on both sides of his HL5. And the best player also was a perennial T05 user who switched to a harder, better, 'less forgiving' rubber. The 4th player has been the scourge of all chinese coaches on the East coast & has grown up using Joola rubbers since he was a kid.

Even in the international circuit, even Dima was recently photographed using Dignics both sides. Timo changed from a T05 FH. So did Harimoto, WCT, Lin Yun Ju and the others. At this level, it is very hard to force change but it happened. Even on BH, so many players (like Ding Ning, Lin Gaoyuan, Dima, LYJ, Harimoto, etc) switched away from T05.

So, yes, in a nutshell, T05 is good (was better with the old ball) but not the end-all be-all.

Anyways, sorry for the digression from the main thread topic.


My point was more that people aren't exactly rushing to go for ESN rubbers now either. But yes, there does seem to be a mass shift towards harder rubbers now. Is Kanak using Dignics?


Edited by bard romance - 07/18/2019 at 9:35am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 10:03am
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

Boosting R50 is great with 2 thin layers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for your comments.

This boosting of the ESN hard sponges seems counterintuitive.  In general, boosting softens the rubber.  It is said that Hurricane is boosted consistently because it plays like a brick without boost.

What is the positive effect of boosting the ESN hard sponges, as an improvement over the out-of-the-package version?  And, is it not the case that the implication of this boosting is that the sponge is too hard for the specific user that favors the feel of the boost?  I presume a 50 degree boosting would result in, say, a 49 degree sponge hardness?

Thanks,
Donn

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 10:06am
Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

My point was more that people aren't exactly rushing to go for ESN rubbers now either. But yes, there does seem to be a mass shift towards harder rubbers now.
A lot of what players use comes from emulating the pro's equipment. At the pro level, sponsorship is a must (not just providing equipment but paying players to use it).

It is tough for the European companies like Andro, Gewo, Donic (which, if you dig deeper, are just brands that table tennis stores started - yes, many of these 'companies' are owned by mom'n'pop table tennis shops) to compete with behemoths like Butterfly or DHS in providing sponsorship money / equipment to pros. Especially because both the products that Butterfly introduced in response to this increased competition (T05H & D05) are very good & clearly better than T05.

But the difference in quality at the 50 deg or higher hardness scales between Butterfly and ESN is not that high at all, especially given the price differential. T05H is a fantastic rubber. But, I prefer the Gewo EL Pro 50 Hard over T05H even if they both were $35.

Originally posted by bard romance bard romance wrote:

Is Kanak using Dignics?
Kanak switched to T05H on FH.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashishsharmaait Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 11:52am
You can try Mizuno Q5. You will not be disappointed. The overall feel is a bit softer than T05, but the end result is the same. On the harder end, if you can handle a 50 degree sponge, you should be able to switch to a boosted Hurricane 39 or a Chinese Hybrid  (try QiJi with blue sponge). If you don't mind boosting once every 10-12 days, nothing beats a boosted Hurricane 40. A boosted Hurricane commercial easily equals if not beats most other rubbers for the FH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 11:55am
definitely, Omega 7 Asia
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Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

definitely, Omega 7 Asia

I was tempted to try O7A after reading your review. But then I saw this in TTD:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

Asia is harder at about 52.5 degrees i think. Closer to tenergy 05fx


52.5 deg rubber is close to 05fx??? Come on now! Tongue

Just kidding: I tried O7Pro and love it. Only problem is that trajectory turns flatter when you hit harder (I like arc to be maintained). If O7A does not have that problem, then that's great. But I'm done searching on FH rubbers (after my year-long tryst with H3N) for now.




Edited by slevin - 07/18/2019 at 12:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 1:25pm
I've 'held' an o7A, the topsheet feels softer and the pimples are spaced a bit further apart than the nexxus El pro 50/53( I own the 53, but I assume both the 'hard'  series nexxus rubbers have the same top), so yeah I guess you should stick to the pro 50.

I'm giving t0H a try since a few weeks, it 'feels' almost similar to the El pro 53, as in the same bat angle and stroke will work for both. However, the pro53 holds the ball quite a bit longer and hence you get a better sense of control. I hated the t05H when I tried it first, however, I liked it a lot better after getting used to the pro53.
The main advantage with t05H is that I get 'slightly' better spin and 'dip'  on my topspins since I have a quick snappy stroke, can't really make usee of the good dwell that the pro53 offers here . Soft brushy strokes are better with t05h, especially serves and pushes. Even blocking works better for me since t05H doesn't hold the ball too long. 

Now at the professional level, pros that like playing close to the table would def prefer playing with t05h or dignics since they don't hold the ball too long and hence won't be affected much by the incoming spin, however, pros that take a step or two back off the table might actually Benefit more from some of the hard esn rubbers (simon gauzy and hugo for example) since they offer good dwell to really load up on spin and power from behind. 

Unlike someone above mentioned, any amateur player without a really consistent and complete stroke set will not benefit by playing with any tenergy. They'l end up holding back and playing half and incomplete strokes due to tenergys low dwell and lack of forgiveness. However, ppl who have really good technique or ppl who receive coaching or guidance can probably benefit from tenergy as it lets you play a better quality ball with very less effort when your timing and technique is correct.

For evryone else, some of the latest esn rubbers are definitely worth a look. 


Edited by nv42 - 07/18/2019 at 1:26pm
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvk1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 3:28pm
"... tenergys low dwell and lack of forgiveness ..." - lol, how the mighty have fallen.

I recall good times when tenergy's high dwell and ease of use was cited as the main reason to choose it over literally everything else. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nv42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2019 at 3:33pm
Regular t05 definitely has more dwell than t05H, but 'new gen' esn tensors of a comparable hardness to either tenergy are slightly dwellier. 
1.dhs pg2 fl

-FH t05h (max)
-BH tibhar genius (max)
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