Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Fast Backhand Drive
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login
tabletennis11.com

Fast Backhand Drive

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
mickd View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Fast Backhand Drive
    Posted: 03/26/2019 at 8:35am
Ever since the last match I posted in my progress over time thread, I've been working on improving my backhand. A big problem I have is lack of power on the backhand, often just putting the ball back.

My coaches usually start with me hitting balls further from the table before taking it back close.

I think I found something I like, but I'm not sure if it's the right thing to work on. When I get it right, the speed and power is great. The problem is, I feel like there is no security in the shot. Not because I'm not spinning the ball, but because I'm trying to swing with a 100% relaxed arm and wrist, which produces great acceleration on contact, but is very hard to control.

My coach's demonstration is a lot more tame. Do you guys think I should scrap the feeling I found with these fast balls and try to tame it down like his? Or is it worth continuing down this path to hopefully learn to control the power?

When I took the stroke close to the table, I found it extremely hard to be consistent. My coach suggested not using any wrist, so the later part of the video shows me just hitting the ball without any wrist action. I'm not sure if I should go back to the drawing board to try and achieve the same power without using the wrist? His demonstration there is also extremely fast and much more tame than mine.

What about body usage? Is what I have sufficient? I feel like the ones at the start further from the table lacks any body movement. I've basically just stabilized myself to swing. Arguably, my body is starting the swing, but I don't really see it. Closer to the table I can see more visible body usage.

Help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
YoAss View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 05/15/2017
Location: Tiel, NL
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YoAss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 8:46am
Mmm. Take my €.02 with a grain of salt; I'm not a pro.

Nevertheless, you're on the mark, I think, in wondering about body usage.  What I think I'm seeing is that your body mass moves away at impact, giving me the impression that you're pushing yourself away from the ball rather than moving through it.

Whenever I'm in a good flow and fit enough, I think what feels right is that there's this small but unmistakable movement of legs (a slight unsquat), hip rotation (forward) and a bit of torso rotation following that hip that gives the very same sensation of going through the ball.  The whip of arm, elbow, wrist more or less follows from and is powered by that movement.  I'm not seeing it here.


Edited by YoAss - 03/26/2019 at 8:49am
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 8:47am
You are doing the right things, you just aren't trying to play around with the quality of the ball by making minor changes to your stroke and noting the results.   Turn the ball more with the stroke than hit it, even when make contact continue to turn the ball no matter how hard you are hitting it.  Your coach is turning the ball while you are whacking it with more of a set angle.   Both are valid approaches but with different levels of spin and consistency depending on how well you time the ball.

Close to the table, you are going to struggle to time the stroke, the wrist action on the backswing is excessive and needs to be modified to the speed of the incoming ball.  Maybe countering with your coach instead of sa slow multiball feed will give a more realistic outcome.  You should be able to just hold the backswing and then use your feeling to whip the racket forward to get a decent ball.  Excessive power close to the table costs time if it slows down recovery as you will struggle against a block.

When you spin think of your stroke as forming a plane of sorts with the ball. Swinging through that tangential plane is what makes the ball rotate. When you hit the ball with a angle you get some rotation but much more speed, which is what you are doing.  When you turn the ball by making contact but staying in that plane as opposed to just continuing to whack through,  you get more rotation as more of your stroke goes into spin.

By turn the ball, I mean rotate your forearm if that isn't clear.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2019 at 9:03am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 8:55am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Ever since the last match I posted in my progress over time thread, I've been working on improving my backhand. A big problem I have is lack of power on the backhand, often just putting the ball back.

My coaches usually start with me hitting balls further from the table before taking it back close.

I think I found something I like, but I'm not sure if it's the right thing to work on. When I get it right, the speed and power is great. The problem is, I feel like there is no security in the shot. Not because I'm not spinning the ball, but because I'm trying to swing with a 100% relaxed arm and wrist, which produces great acceleration on contact, but is very hard to control.

My coach's demonstration is a lot more tame. Do you guys think I should scrap the feeling I found with these fast balls and try to tame it down like his? Or is it worth continuing down this path to hopefully learn to control the power?

When I took the stroke close to the table, I found it extremely hard to be consistent. My coach suggested not using any wrist, so the later part of the video shows me just hitting the ball without any wrist action. I'm not sure if I should go back to the drawing board to try and achieve the same power without using the wrist? His demonstration there is also extremely fast and much more tame than mine.

What about body usage? Is what I have sufficient? I feel like the ones at the start further from the table lacks any body movement. I've basically just stabilized myself to swing. Arguably, my body is starting the swing, but I don't really see it. Closer to the table I can see more visible body usage.

Help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.



I'll let others comment, but what I learnt recently is that the lower body is a lot stronger than the upper body, therefore for power generation you have to start involving your lower body, overuse of the upper body like what you are doing is likely to lead to injuries imo. There seems to be a lot of variety in the BH on how to do that. 

For me I'm starting to become a huge fan of Fan Zhendong and Harimoto's approach to the BH, it's a very different mechanism to many other players, because they actually push off their playing arm foot for the BH (right leg for righties), there is no "left to right" weight transfer but it's more "forward" because you're pushing off the back foot. Hip rotation is achieved by straightening the back foot (you push with both legs but much more on the back foot). I really like it because you don't need to switch to a more square foot position which compromises the FH, and because you're always pushing off your playing arm side leg (back foot) there is no confusion on weight transfer. Extremely elegant like a Bruce Lee fast punch, initiated from the legs!

When you watch videos, try not to watch the hands, but the feet, knees, hips, waist, shoulders and you'll get a better idea of where the power is coming from. I too was confused when I saw Fan Zhendong simply ripping the ball at will on his BH with minimal arm or wrist movement, it wasn't till recently that I watched his legs and the massive push off force that he was generating that I understood the true source of the power in the stroke. 

Watch the leg movements in both players below carefully...



Edited by blahness - 03/26/2019 at 9:43am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 9:06am
By the way the modified stroke your coach showed you is much better close to the table and possibly overall,  the one with less wrist.   If you could play that girl again or do something transition drills with forehand backhand forehand or backhand forehand backhand you will see why.

In fact If you used that modified backhand as your default for all your backhand strokes and all distances it woul serve you well. Don't over think this. You can always change it later.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/26/2019 at 9:10am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 9:42am
Wow. I never expected so many replies so quickly. Thanks guys.

@YoAss I definitely agree with what you're saying. I think that's the general gist of what needs to happen to apply your body into any shot. I think feeling is something that's hard to see on video. I'll try to describe what I feel. I feel like before the stroke I'm accumulating power to create the swing. That's the feeling I have when I do the swing. It's like you've got a bit of anger building up in you, and then suddenly you just let it out. Is this power from the legs or hips? I can't say for sure. If I had to guess somewhere, I'd say it's from the core. But like, I don't really see it in my body. So maybe I'm not using my body enough? I have small transfers of weight, a little bit of bowing, a little bit of leg/hip? rotation, but it's so little that it's not really visible. Maybe I need more? Hmm. I think I'm thinking to myself now. Okay, back to what you were saying. What do you mean by my body mass moving away at impact? I don't see it, but that does sound wrong.

@NL Thanks. I only had about 10 minutes to practice them, split over 2 6 minute sessions. So I was conscious about small adjustments, but I don't think I had the time to get the feel doing it against a wide range of balls.

My goal is to use this on chance balls instead of playing too passive. It definitely won't be my default stroke. I feel like I had a lot of opportunities to be more aggressive, but just lacked the technique to do so in that match with the girl. I'm trying to find the feeling of a more aggressive stroke for those occasions. And to be honest, if I did get this down, chances are in match play I'll be using a more tamed version since the ball will be less predictable and I won't be in such a good position or attacking such a free ball. I probably don't need to be this aggressive with it, but maybe I can if I get better? A little more impact, taking the ball a little earlier, placing the ball better will probably achieve more with less effort.

Oh, I see what you mean there. Yeah, maybe I am whacking it with the angle a little too much. It'll be even harder to time it to spin it more while doing a swing like that. I guess I could take it back and go for more spin, but the ball will be sooo slow hehe.

And yes, I was wondering what you mean't by turn :)

@blahness Thanks man. Read what I wrote to YoAss above, too. I'm wondering what you think about what I said there, too. I just tried to shadow stroke pushing off with the playing hand foot first and I could do it, but it felt awkward, especially if I was to transition to a forehand right after. I feel like my weight is on the wrong foot. But maybe I'm supposed to in those cases push off my back foot to have a micro movement, which will put the weight back on my playing foot to be able to do a forehand shot? I'll need to play around with this.

Maybe I'm just not there yet, but I still feel like the arm is much more important than the legs. I feel like I'm going to get a lot of discussions out of this, so let me explain before you all roast me hehe. You definitely need to use your lower body to generate the power, but even if you add that, you won't have a stroke unless your arm is doing what it's supposed to be doing. With pure body usage, the arm won't even be in position to hit the ball. You need to create the racket angle, the swing trajectory and the power at contact, which all happens in the arm. I know it starts in the body, and I do try to start all strokes using the body, but in the end the arm, wrist and hand is what delivers it. It's the arm muscles that direct it. So like, I feel like getting the arm movement down is the most important, then adding more body as you go. Also to clarify, I don't mean shoulder when I say arm. So the legs and hips should still be creating the backswing on a forehand stroke, for example, instead of swinging your arm back at the shoulder to get the backswing.

Please don't quote me on this in like a year or two when I'm saying the complete opposite of what I'm saying now :X

@NL Yeah! I was thinking that too. He mentioned taking the ball earlier, so I think his method would work fine with a lot less wrist. And his demonstration shows that. I was trying to take the ball high, as if I was kinda killing a popup. I was thinking more about chance balls when I was practicing it. The slower, higher balls where you have more time and more height to to clear the net with.

Hmm. Lots to think about.


@blahness I'll watch the video now! I wrote my reply before your edit :)
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 9:48am
Hmm. Watching ML and FZD. It's all about strong impacts. I think I'll stop using my wrist so much. The body usage is amazing, but as an amateur player, I don't think I'll ever look like that. But if I'm going for strong impacts, I'll definitely need more body thrust like them.

I still haven't figured out the feeling of strong impacts and consistency. And the moment I take wrist out of the equation, I lose all feeling of speed. Back to the drawing board!
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 9:54am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Hmm. Watching ML and FZD. It's all about strong impacts. I think I'll stop using my wrist so much. The body usage is amazing, but as an amateur player, I don't think I'll ever look like that. But if I'm going for strong impacts, I'll definitely need more body thrust like them.

I still haven't figured out the feeling of strong impacts and consistency. And the moment I take wrist out of the equation, I lose all feeling of speed. Back to the drawing board!

Strong impacts with a turning/spin based approach not the speed based approach you are using.   Speed is overrated when developing consistency but unfortunately it takes adult learners too long to take this to heart.  Just keep a spin based approach and try to improve the contact and timing.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 9:59am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

Hmm. Watching ML and FZD. It's all about strong impacts. I think I'll stop using my wrist so much. The body usage is amazing, but as an amateur player, I don't think I'll ever look like that. But if I'm going for strong impacts, I'll definitely need more body thrust like them.

I still haven't figured out the feeling of strong impacts and consistency. And the moment I take wrist out of the equation, I lose all feeling of speed. Back to the drawing board!

Looking at your backhand, I don't think you have an issue with the arm since you are consistent with it and you can reliably bring the ball to the other side. 

You'll notice that they don't have exaggerated wrist or arm movements. That's because they rely on the push off from the ground. Ma Long is using the German school (Timo, Ovtcharov) of pushing off the ground equally on both legs which makes it very stable. Fan Zhendong and Harimoto pushes off the ground much more on the back leg (as I said it's a very different mechanism and will feel really weird at first, but once you get it it's amazing!) which allows them to be faster in transitioning. Btw with the FZD and  Harimoto method you don't need to transition at all, the weight transfer is always back foot to front foot during the stroke, reverse for the backswing for both FH and BH...

Basically, I'm saying you can't have a strong controlled impact if you don't use the lower body effectively, and then you'll have to overcompensate with the arms which leads to many other issues


Edited by blahness - 03/26/2019 at 10:06am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 10:21am
@NL I think my regular strokes are very spin based, so I'm definitely not trying to do this for even 10% of my strokes. I actually think I'm pretty tame in that aspect of not going for too much speed before spin. Or maybe I only think I am, and I really need to do it more. Hmm. This was for those times I needed a little more power. I wouldn't be trying to rally like that hehe. I think I'll do what you're saying though, and just try to increase spin and power on my regular stroke, which is generally a more spinny stroke.

@blahness Hmm, I can't get the movement feeling natural going back foot first. This is reminding me of a demonstration one of the other coaches did in terms of weight transfer a few months ago. I couldn't get it right, and I feel like now it was something like this, where he starting the stroke with his weight on the opposite foot of what I would have. It was extremely awkward and unnatural to try.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 10:31am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

@NL I think my regular strokes are very spin based, so I'm definitely not trying to do this for even 10% of my strokes. I actually think I'm pretty tame in that aspect of not going for too much speed before spin. Or maybe I only think I am, and I really need to do it more. Hmm. This was for those times I needed a little more power. I wouldn't be trying to rally like that hehe. I think I'll do what you're saying though, and just try to increase spin and power on my regular stroke, which is generally a more spinny stroke.

@blahness Hmm, I can't get the movement feeling natural going back foot first. This is reminding me of a demonstration one of the other coaches did in terms of weight transfer a few months ago. I couldn't get it right, and I feel like now it was something like this, where he starting the stroke with his weight on the opposite foot of what I would have. It was extremely awkward and unnatural to try.

Spin can be an ambiguous term.   I hear people tell me watchingmy videos that I don't spin the ball because my balls are mostly fast,  but my practice partners will tell you that no matter how hard I hit the ball, they always try to get a racket on it because there is enough spin to make a block no matter how hard or fast it looks.  In other words I don't know how to hit the ball hard and flat.

What people are really telling you is that you do to much thin brush spin.  You can still spin with thicker contact.  Maybe your rubber is too soft for it to feel right, but that is what you should be trying to do. Just use your regular stroke, change the start and finish point and make thicker contact with the ball.  Hitting the ball past good players is hard, just work on improving the quality of your base stroke. in fact that is the goal of backhands away from the table when you start out.  Not to hit with power per se, but to develop the power of your backhand form while maintaining the spin.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 10:34am

The weight transfer thing is not a priority you are currently using your hips a little.  If you want to learn it, just using your hips in a circle.  Since you are a lefty, go left to right on a backswing and right to left on the forward swing. But it isn't the biggest deal in the world and may not feel that different from what you ate doing now.  You are hitting the bll to hard for it to be powered by the arm primarily.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 10:38am
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

@NL I think my regular strokes are very spin based, so I'm definitely not trying to do this for even 10% of my strokes. I actually think I'm pretty tame in that aspect of not going for too much speed before spin. Or maybe I only think I am, and I really need to do it more. Hmm. This was for those times I needed a little more power. I wouldn't be trying to rally like that hehe. I think I'll do what you're saying though, and just try to increase spin and power on my regular stroke, which is generally a more spinny stroke.

@blahness Hmm, I can't get the movement feeling natural going back foot first. This is reminding me of a demonstration one of the other coaches did in terms of weight transfer a few months ago. I couldn't get it right, and I feel like now it was something like this, where he starting the stroke with his weight on the opposite foot of what I would have. It was extremely awkward and unnatural to try.

I was the same as you initially, it was completely mind boggling...it took me about two weeks to feel comfortable with it, but now I'm feeling all the advantages of this method in terms of transition speed. That said I noticed I can reprogram my brain much faster than the average person so your mileage may vary...

There's a lot of variation in the BH weight transfer. There's people who do it the Kreanga/ZJK way of going from nonplayingarm side foot to playingarm side foot, the Ma Long/Timo Boll/Ovtcharov/Samsonov way of using both legs equally, and the newer FZD/Harimoto way of pushing off more from the back foot to front foot. I would say all are viable options but eventually all of them utilises their lower bodies very effectively...

Edit: My point being that whichever method you choose, you still need to use your legs to push off the ground to generate serious power (since that's what you were looking for), the arm only strokes you were using is simply not capable of generating power even remotely close to a leg driven stroke....


Edited by blahness - 03/26/2019 at 11:05am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

@NL I think my regular strokes are very spin based, so I'm definitely not trying to do this for even 10% of my strokes. I actually think I'm pretty tame in that aspect of not going for too much speed before spin. Or maybe I only think I am, and I really need to do it more. Hmm. This was for those times I needed a little more power. I wouldn't be trying to rally like that hehe. I think I'll do what you're saying though, and just try to increase spin and power on my regular stroke, which is generally a more spinny stroke.

@blahness Hmm, I can't get the movement feeling natural going back foot first. This is reminding me of a demonstration one of the other coaches did in terms of weight transfer a few months ago. I couldn't get it right, and I feel like now it was something like this, where he starting the stroke with his weight on the opposite foot of what I would have. It was extremely awkward and unnatural to try.

I was the same as you initially, it was completely mind boggling...it took me about two weeks to feel comfortable with it, but now I'm feeling all the advantages of this method in terms of transition speed. That said I noticed I can reprogram my brain much faster than the average person so your mileage may vary...

There's a lot of variation in the BH weight transfer. There's people who do it the Kreanga/ZJK way of going from nonplayingarm side foot to playingarm side foot, the Ma Long/Timo Boll/Ovtcharov/Samsonov way of using both legs equally, and the newer FZD/Harimoto way of pushing off more from the back foot to front foot. I would say all are viable options but eventually all of them utilises their lower bodies very effectively...

Edit: My point being that whichever method you choose, you still need to use your legs to push off the ground to generate serious power (since that's what you were looking for), the arm only strokes you were using is simply not capable of generating power even remotely close to a leg driven stroke....

If you look at yourself on video,  you may be surprised to see that what you are doing is not that different from what he is doing.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
balldance View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member


Joined: 01/28/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote balldance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2019 at 3:02pm
I wouldn't call this fast backhand drive. I would call it powerful backhand drive instead. Fast BH drive to me should be the fast compact BH stroke close to the table like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIBwZ5ndOI4

You are doing well, mickd. I didn't think you could do powerful BH shots like those in the videos. Looks promising. The biggest difference from your stroke and your coach's stroke is that you didn't hit the ball forward enough. I think that's probably why you find it hard to generate speed. Your arm/bat swings from right to left more than forward and while it seems you already try to hit the ball hard with thick contact, it doesn't have enough "forward" power (sorry for my bad english :D).

If you look carefully at your coach's stroke, that bat may go to his right side after follow-through but before contact, at the contact and right after contact, the bat (especially the head of the bat) will mainly swing forward. If you swing forward with a relaxed arm and hit the ball with thick contact, you don't even need to try too hard to generate speed and that might mean the stroke is more tame like what you describe. And I think you probably hit the ball a little too far from your body, which reduce your power and also make you contact the ball from right to left instead of hitting it forward.

Your body didn't look too fluid yet but don't worry, just fix one thing at a time. When you can hit the ball right, your body and arm will be more relaxed and it'd be easier to work on other flaws. As you can see, your coach demonstrated his BH shots without much body power/movement, I'm pretty sure he will use more of his body power when he's serious but you can see it's not obligatory to produce a pretty powerful BH shot.


Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/27/2019 at 12:55am
+1 balldance...

Good pick up, I would second this and offer this video by Li Sun on the BH (I assume you can understand Mandarin?) which was very succinct and helpful as always. The other tip I found very useful (not from this video  but another one) was to feel that you're actively controlling the ball at the back of your palm (in FH it's opposite , you want to feel the ball in your palm). But in any case, a strong forward impact on the ball is the key, and you definitely want to use your lower body to create that impact. Other important components are not to contact the ball on the side but on the back to maximise forward impact, and the elbow has to move forward just like a punch. 



Edited by blahness - 03/27/2019 at 1:07am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/27/2019 at 4:24am
To illustrate the Harimoto/Fan Zhendong mechanism of pushing off the backfoot, I would like to show this video, it's been my inspiration :




-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
mickd View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 04/27/2014
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 1231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2019 at 1:25am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Spin can be an ambiguous term.   I hear people tell me watchingmy videos that I don't spin the ball because my balls are mostly fast,  but my practice partners will tell you that no matter how hard I hit the ball, they always try to get a racket on it because there is enough spin to make a block no matter how hard or fast it looks.  In other words I don't know how to hit the ball hard and flat.

What people are really telling you is that you do to much thin brush spin.  You can still spin with thicker contact.  Maybe your rubber is too soft for it to feel right, but that is what you should be trying to do. Just use your regular stroke, change the start and finish point and make thicker contact with the ball.  Hitting the ball past good players is hard, just work on improving the quality of your base stroke. in fact that is the goal of backhands away from the table when you start out.  Not to hit with power per se, but to develop the power of your backhand form while maintaining the spin.

Thanks NL. I like this post. I do have a similar problem being unable to hit hard and flat. A lot of practice has been going into getting a thicker contact. I'll work on it and hopefully have something good to share in the near future. Smile

Originally posted by balldance balldance wrote:

I wouldn't call this fast backhand drive. I would call it powerful backhand drive instead. Fast BH drive to me should be the fast compact BH stroke close to the table like this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIBwZ5ndOI4

You are doing well, mickd. I didn't think you could do powerful BH shots like those in the videos. Looks promising. The biggest difference from your stroke and your coach's stroke is that you didn't hit the ball forward enough. I think that's probably why you find it hard to generate speed. Your arm/bat swings from right to left more than forward and while it seems you already try to hit the ball hard with thick contact, it doesn't have enough "forward" power (sorry for my bad english :D). 

If you look carefully at your coach's stroke, that bat may go to his right side after follow-through but before contact, at the contact and right after contact, the bat (especially the head of the bat) will mainly swing forward. If you swing forward with a relaxed arm and hit the ball with thick contact, you don't even need to try too hard to generate speed and that might mean the stroke is more tame like what you describe. And I think you probably hit the ball a little too far from your body, which reduce your power and also make you contact the ball from right to left instead of hitting it forward. 

...

Thanks balldance. I DEFINITELY didn't think I could hit those balls, too. My coach asked me to get more thick contact and well, those balls just started appearing. I think your choice of wording is better, sorry about that!!

It's interesting you mention about hitting forward. I've had a lot of conflicting advice from the coaches about it. Just to clarify, they all want me to hit forward more close to the table. One of them is saying that I need to contact the ball further in front of my body since I'm being jammed, which is why I brush up too much. The other one is saying I need to contact the ball closer to my body, since too far forward and you lose the ability to generate power. That said, I'm interpreting hitting the ball more in front of my body as taking the ball earlier in the bounce, say as the ball is still rising.

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

+1 balldance...

Good pick up, I would second this and offer this video by Li Sun on the BH (I assume you can understand Mandarin?) which was very succinct and helpful as always. The other tip I found very useful (not from this video  but another one) was to feel that you're actively controlling the ball at the back of your palm (in FH it's opposite , you want to feel the ball in your palm). But in any case, a strong forward impact on the ball is the key, and you definitely want to use your lower body to create that impact. Other important components are not to contact the ball on the side but on the back to maximise forward impact, and the elbow has to move forward just like a punch. 

Thanks blahness. Yep, I know some mandarin. I've also seen that video before, but it was good to see it again! I definitely agree that table tennis seems to be moving towards that style of play. The question remains is that, should people like me, and other intermediate amateur players, be playing like this from the get go? Is that the best way to improve? Or is it more important to get the feeling of brushing, learning to be consistent with a slow ball, going more from down to up? Of course, this is more for against underspin balls like the ones in that video. Is there a level I should first aim for before pushing for a stroke like that? Food for thought? Smile

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

To illustrate the Harimoto/Fan Zhendong mechanism of pushing off the backfoot, I would like to show this video, it's been my inspiration :

Interesting video to see, thanks! The first thought I had was that it looks like his back leg in all those punches is the opposite to his hitting hand. If I was to take a backhand stance (playing hand leg forward), I would also be starting the weight transfer from my back leg. So what's happening is that I'm taking a forehand stance, which puts my playing leg behind my other leg.

What ends up happening is that if I'm going cross court, I end up transferring weight from my front leg into my back leg with the forehand stance doing backhands. If I was to go down the line using my body to direct it, I'll probably have my weight on my back leg, pushing my weight onto my front leg since I'm going down the line, and I want the force going forward instead of to the left (cross court for a left hander). If I was going down the line by using my arm and racket angle to redirect the ball by contacting more towards the inside of the ball, I'll probably be using the same weight transfer as going cross court.

I'm not sure if that makes sense. If not, please let me know and I'll clarify. Also, I'm curious what others think about that. Cheers!
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2019 at 3:53am
Tbh with the BH there's way too much variety in strokes especially around the weight transfer, hip rotation and arm movement that can all work well ... I'm simply sharing my thoughts about a unique idea that Harimoto and Fan Zhendong are using, and I just recently switched to, it is definitely not a recommendation, there are pros and cons to each method... There's a player who raises his elbow to or above his shoulders each time he hits a BH and it still works for him lol.... I'm still in the process of transitioning and it's not the easiest process!

The biggest changes I would say is that you need to increase the impact force you have on the ball, and these would come from two sources, which is the unsquatting from the legs as well as the forearm moving more forward. 
It's about having a larger range of movement in the forward/backward direction between the backswing and the stroke (if you look at Li Sun video he makes it quite clear). For the backswing you need to take your forearm  back before you can launch it forward. There is a forward movement of the elbow....it is not a "fixed point"!

Also if you're impacting the ball harder it doesn't mean you don't spin the ball. The two are not mutually exclusive...in fact a larger impact will probably increase the spin on the ball if you maintain  the same spin based contact (the higher the normal force, the higher the frictional force and thus the higher the tangential force that can be transmitted to the ball which leads to increased spin)


Edited by blahness - 03/29/2019 at 4:25am
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
SmackDAT View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/01/2012
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SmackDAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2019 at 8:23am
You could benefit by micro engaging your core and legs. Hard to explain but you should engage in a very subtle manner, that's gives you all the power
Zhang Jike ALC AN (88g)
Tenergy 05 Hard (2.1, B)
Tenergy 19 (2.1, R)
https://goo.gl/bFWoxW
Back to Top
blahness View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 10/18/2009
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 5443
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2019 at 7:20pm
Originally posted by SmackDAT SmackDAT wrote:

You could benefit by micro engaging your core and legs. Hard to explain but you should engage in a very subtle manner, that's gives you all the power

Agreed, you don't even need all that much from the unsquatting, just the connection of that movement to the ball.... But for starters a bigger movement is necessary to build in the mechanism into the brain I feel...
-------
Viscaria
FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.