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    Posted: 03/26/2021 at 6:48am
Practiced with a semi-pro player today... What really struck me is that they don't necessarily hit the ball that hard (I think some amateurs can probably hit the ball as hard as them), but the consistency and spin that they produce is on a completely different level. I was struggling af to block any of the harder topspins because of the sheer amount of spin - close to uncontrollable. The advice he gave was also to focus on getting into position, hitting well and producing a lot of spin in the shots, and try to not make a mistake ie land everything. He also mentioned that to get a lot of spin you have to wrap around the ball, not with the wrist but with the forearm pronation/supination. He also mentions that the wrist should be relatively straight for consistency. The other thing was to use more of the left arm pulling to the side to aid power production on the BH to increase speed of recovery.

It is really fun to practice with him coz the balls go super fast and spinny and he pretty much seldom misses at all. I feel like my reflexes already increased significantly after practicing with him haha...



Edited by blahness - 03/26/2021 at 7:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 11:26am
it's their technique but also their equipment.
a semi-pro will have that viscaria with new dignics 05 both sides.
a casual player will have a primorac with old rozena both sides (in the best case).


Edited by astaroyd - 03/26/2021 at 12:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 1:31pm
C'mon Blah, out with it! Which rubber setup did he convince you to try...

And astar, I'm not sure that's true. I've known plenty of terrible players with high end butterfly blades and brand new shiny rubbers... still couldn't spin a ball even one full rotation!

I've always tried to focus more on spin than speed, if only for consistency's sake. I find if you're too slow and you can't control the ball height, people will just try to slap the top spins back. So it actually takes quite a bit of skill to do slower, spinny loops while ensuring the trajectory stays low over the net and bounces long on the table. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 2:03pm
yes, you need spiny equipment and good technique to produce high spin.
but good players can control any spin.
if you watch high level matches they never win points just with spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

yes, you need spiny equipment and good technique to produce high spin.
but good players can control any spin.
if you watch high level matches they never win points just with spin.

He's a ex Chinese state player of some sort, uses blue sponge hurricane on FH and 37 deg H3 on BH. He had the spinniest loops on both wings that I've ever seen, and he pretty much never misses, and the trajectory is all really low. It's a bit of a ZJK style, chiquita with BH and then go into the topspin rally and keep looping after that. Even the chiquita had some ridiculous spin on it that was a nightmare to control. 

Of course he has plenty of power on both wings but he converts the majority of that into spin...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

yes, you need spiny equipment and good technique to produce high spin.
but good players can control any spin.
if you watch high level matches they never win points just with spin.

He's a ex Chinese state player of some sort, uses blue sponge hurricane on FH and 37 deg H3 on BH. He had the spinniest loops on both wings that I've ever seen, and he pretty much never misses, and the trajectory is all really low. It's a bit of a ZJK style, chiquita with BH and then go into the topspin rally and keep looping after that. Even the chiquita had some ridiculous spin on it that was a nightmare to control. 

Of course he has plenty of power on both wings but he converts the majority of that into spin...

If play with him everyday, you will adjust to his spin as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

C'mon Blah, out with it! Which rubber setup did he convince you to try...

And astar, I'm not sure that's true. I've known plenty of terrible players with high end butterfly blades and brand new shiny rubbers... still couldn't spin a ball even one full rotation!

I've always tried to focus more on spin than speed, if only for consistency's sake. I find if you're too slow and you can't control the ball height, people will just try to slap the top spins back. So it actually takes quite a bit of skill to do slower, spinny loops while ensuring the trajectory stays low over the net and bounces long on the table. 

Once you get to his level of spin and trajectory control, there's just no way to slap the topspin. The topspin makes it dip hard post bounce and you simply do not have a clear line of sight to the net. You could get lucky and slap it in, but have an accuracy rate of like 10%...

 The most you can do is placement blocking tbh. I block with a slight countertopspin movement and wrap around the ball in general which helps with control, so after a while I was able to block quite stably and give him a good workout too haha. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 5:02pm
I asked him about my strokes etc and he is saying it looks good but I obviously lack practice which is why the timing and feeling and footwork is bad LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 5:10pm
so why is such a high level player playing in a normal club with medium level players?

Edited by astaroyd - 03/26/2021 at 5:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

so why is such a high level player playing in a normal club with medium level players?
No idea haha, I'll take what I can get Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

so why is such a high level player playing in a normal club with medium level players?

Medium level? Your generosity is strong! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote obesechopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

C'mon Blah, out with it! Which rubber setup did he convince you to try...

And astar, I'm not sure that's true. I've known plenty of terrible players with high end butterfly blades and brand new shiny rubbers... still couldn't spin a ball even one full rotation!

I've always tried to focus more on spin than speed, if only for consistency's sake. I find if you're too slow and you can't control the ball height, people will just try to slap the top spins back. So it actually takes quite a bit of skill to do slower, spinny loops while ensuring the trajectory stays low over the net and bounces long on the table. 

Once you get to his level of spin and trajectory control, there's just no way to slap the topspin. The topspin makes it dip hard post bounce and you simply do not have a clear line of sight to the net. You could get lucky and slap it in, but have an accuracy rate of like 10%...

 The most you can do is placement blocking tbh. I block with a slight countertopspin movement and wrap around the ball in general which helps with control, so after a while I was able to block quite stably and give him a good workout too haha. 

Counter drive or counter loop. I remember watching kanak and lily practice in person, and what surprised me the most was just how low all of their shots were over the net. One was doing attacks and the other active blocks, but the speed was quite fast. If that's the height you're talking about, I can see why they have to counter loop the incoming attacks! Difficult to slap for sure, but angled blocks would be possible borrowing the incoming power. Like oh sang eun for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

so why is such a high level player playing in a normal club with medium level players?

Medium level? Your generosity is strong! LOL

Lol yeah I think if he's in the US he's gonna be one of those untouchable 2500-2600 players... Compared to him we are all just scrubs lmao
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/26/2021 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by obesechopper obesechopper wrote:

C'mon Blah, out with it! Which rubber setup did he convince you to try...

And astar, I'm not sure that's true. I've known plenty of terrible players with high end butterfly blades and brand new shiny rubbers... still couldn't spin a ball even one full rotation!

I've always tried to focus more on spin than speed, if only for consistency's sake. I find if you're too slow and you can't control the ball height, people will just try to slap the top spins back. So it actually takes quite a bit of skill to do slower, spinny loops while ensuring the trajectory stays low over the net and bounces long on the table. 

Once you get to his level of spin and trajectory control, there's just no way to slap the topspin. The topspin makes it dip hard post bounce and you simply do not have a clear line of sight to the net. You could get lucky and slap it in, but have an accuracy rate of like 10%...

 The most you can do is placement blocking tbh. I block with a slight countertopspin movement and wrap around the ball in general which helps with control, so after a while I was able to block quite stably and give him a good workout too haha. 

Counter drive or counter loop. I remember watching kanak and lily practice in person, and what surprised me the most was just how low all of their shots were over the net. One was doing attacks and the other active blocks, but the speed was quite fast. If that's the height you're talking about, I can see why they have to counter loop the incoming attacks! Difficult to slap for sure, but angled blocks would be possible borrowing the incoming power. Like oh sang eun for example.

Even when blocking you have to be on your toes and use your body to control the ball without much backswing, and wrap around the ball to ride out the spin. I learnt a bit watching Dan block against Ovtcharov. If you don't do any of these it'll be impossible to keep the loops on the table because they're just that spinny lol...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2021 at 10:14am
Quality practice is priceless honestly.  

Not so good for the player thats 500 or 700 points better haha 😂 but having someone turn up of that level creates a real buzz in a small level non pro club.. Its kind of them to show that willing to hit with people for a while. 

Every loop and idea can be sponged cracking job. 👍👍👍👍

Have you found out where he played yet btw or his name? 

Nice blah. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2021 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by ghostzen ghostzen wrote:

Quality practice is priceless honestly.  

Not so good for the player thats 500 or 700 points better haha 😂 but having someone turn up of that level creates a real buzz in a small level non pro club.. Its kind of them to show that willing to hit with people for a while. 

Every loop and idea can be sponged cracking job. 👍👍👍👍

Have you found out where he played yet btw or his name? 

Nice blah. 

Yeah he probably can play with the pros here Big smile

But yeah, it's a very rare opportunity to witness a real master of the sport at close range. I learnt a great deal just watching and observing him. 

He seems like a private person so I'll probably skip that part....but he's won some regional competitions back in China. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2021 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

it's their technique but also their equipment.
a semi-pro will have that viscaria with new dignics 05 both sides.
a casual player will have a primorac with old rozena both sides (in the best case).

Plenty of casual players are using ZLC and Dignics 05. And although BTY gear like Dignics and Tenergy produce MORE spin from poor mechanics than their competitors, they don't magically give those casual players the ability to produce monstrous and powerful spin.

I think as well, that since the plastic ball, big spin is now not just about having the technique and touch, but also a level of physicality to produce significant power. Power is easily observable in how hard the ball rips or dives when it lands on the opponent side. I suspect that the faster you hit the ball, the more spin you need to get an equal effect on the dive.

In any event, some equipment is more demanding to play with but also will produce greater effect in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

But did you ever notice that most players fall into the trap of ever "faster and spinnier" equipment to help them get an edge against regular opponents?


Edited by icontek - 03/29/2021 at 10:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/30/2021 at 1:03am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

it's their technique but also their equipment.
a semi-pro will have that viscaria with new dignics 05 both sides.
a casual player will have a primorac with old rozena both sides (in the best case).

Plenty of casual players are using ZLC and Dignics 05. And although BTY gear like Dignics and Tenergy produce MORE spin from poor mechanics than their competitors, they don't magically give those casual players the ability to produce monstrous and powerful spin.

I think as well, that since the plastic ball, big spin is now not just about having the technique and touch, but also a level of physicality to produce significant power. Power is easily observable in how hard the ball rips or dives when it lands on the opponent side. I suspect that the faster you hit the ball, the more spin you need to get an equal effect on the dive.

In any event, some equipment is more demanding to play with but also will produce greater effect in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

But did you ever notice that most players fall into the trap of ever "faster and spinnier" equipment to help them get an edge against regular opponents?

It's a double edged sword in general, the spinnier a rubber is, the more spin sensitive it is, and you need even more skills to properly control it, especially in terms of reading and adjusting to incoming spin. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maur1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2021 at 11:16pm
I had an interesting discussion about the spin to power ratio with my coach. I watched him practice the other day and his balls had a sharp crack sound and they had huge speed along with high spin.

He explained that the sound is what you hear in the training halls of the pros but not in any usual club play.

I actually managed to make a few balls have a similar crack sound when I had perfect body mechanics supporting a very fast swing along with perfect arm timing on my backhand.

These balls were the fastest highest spin backhand balls i had ever done in my life.

I do not think it has anything to do with the type of rubbers at all. According to my coach its all about using your body correctly to support a fast swing that allows a lot of spin along with a high level of power.



Edited by maur1010 - 04/01/2021 at 11:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robin.w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2021 at 1:09am
the crack sound only comes when the ball fully penetrate the sponge and impact on the blade so the wood, carbon fiber, and the core ply work together to generate speed and spin .There’s Chinese word to describe this “透板”.  There is a joke about this, “ no matter how expensive is your blade,if you can’t “透板”,you are just playing with sponge and wasting money.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2021 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Robin.w Robin.w wrote:

the crack sound only comes when the ball fully penetrate the sponge and impact on the blade so the wood, carbon fiber, and the core ply work together to generate speed and spin .There’s Chinese word to describe this “透板”.  There is a joke about this, “ no matter how expensive is your blade,if you can’t “透板”,you are just playing with sponge and wasting money.”

For me I think if I'm bottoming out rubbers consistently its leading to a loss of control which means I need a harder rubber. This is why it's difficult to play with soft rubbers on the FH for most players with good body mechanics. 


Edited by blahness - 04/03/2021 at 8:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2021 at 7:56am
Originally posted by maur1010 maur1010 wrote:

I had an interesting discussion about the spin to power ratio with my coach. I watched him practice the other day and his balls had a sharp crack sound and they had huge speed along with high spin.

He explained that the sound is what you hear in the training halls of the pros but not in any usual club play.

I actually managed to make a few balls have a similar crack sound when I had perfect body mechanics supporting a very fast swing along with perfect arm timing on my backhand.

These balls were the fastest highest spin backhand balls i had ever done in my life.

I do not think it has anything to do with the type of rubbers at all. According to my coach its all about using your body correctly to support a fast swing that allows a lot of spin along with a high level of power.


I have only experienced the crack sound with carbon blades so I always thought is the sound when the carbon are engaged. However I feel like the results is mixed sometimes, sometimes it feels like I bottomed out the sponge and it produce a low quality loop. Either way I do not like the sound much... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maur1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/06/2021 at 10:09pm
I feel you need very high arm speed so you can get the crack sound along with high spin.

Most of us non pro players have a lower arm speed so if we get the crack it has low spin so the ball is low quality and usually goes long.
My coach keeps enforcing the correct body movement is critical and telling me the timing of the forward swing is also critical.
The delay of the body moving in one direction with the arm moving in the opposite direction before the forward action is a huge key.
So in the backhand the body is rising as the bat is still going back. Then the bat has to catch up with the body like a whip. So this results in a high speed arm action.

One can actually delay the backswing to increase this whip action. This is what I have been working on in my lessons.



Edited by maur1010 - 04/06/2021 at 10:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 12:24am
Originally posted by maur1010 maur1010 wrote:

I feel you need very high arm speed so you can get the crack sound along with high spin.

Most of us non pro players have a lower arm speed so if we get the crack it has low spin so the ball is low quality and usually goes long.
My coach keeps enforcing the correct body movement is critical and telling me the timing of the forward swing is also critical.
The delay of the body moving in one direction with the arm moving in the opposite direction before the forward action is a huge key.
So in the backhand the body is rising as the bat is still going back. Then the bat has to catch up with the body like a whip. So this results in a high speed arm action.

One can actually delay the backswing to increase this whip action. This is what I have been working on in my lessons.


I tried the jerky whippy strokes before, I feel like it's more unstable and  potentially injurious than the ones where the arm is completely in sync with the body rotation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 4:59am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:

it's their technique but also their equipment.
a semi-pro will have that viscaria with new dignics 05 both sides.
a casual player will have a primorac with old rozena both sides (in the best case).

Plenty of casual players are using ZLC and Dignics 05. And although BTY gear like Dignics and Tenergy produce MORE spin from poor mechanics than their competitors, they don't magically give those casual players the ability to produce monstrous and powerful spin.

I think as well, that since the plastic ball, big spin is now not just about having the technique and touch, but also a level of physicality to produce significant power. Power is easily observable in how hard the ball rips or dives when it lands on the opponent side. I suspect that the faster you hit the ball, the more spin you need to get an equal effect on the dive.

In any event, some equipment is more demanding to play with but also will produce greater effect in the hands of someone who knows how to use it.

But did you ever notice that most players fall into the trap of ever "faster and spinnier" equipment to help them get an edge against regular opponents?

not really.
from what I've seen most players don't use very fast equipment.
for example "primorac carbon" I've seen very few people using it.
also tenergy, let alone dignics... they don't seem to be that popular in the normal club scene (probably because of the price).


Edited by astaroyd - 04/07/2021 at 5:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 8:39am
Originally posted by maur1010 maur1010 wrote:

I feel you need very high arm speed so you can get the crack sound along with high spin.

Most of us non pro players have a lower arm speed so if we get the crack it has low spin so the ball is low quality and usually goes long.
My coach keeps enforcing the correct body movement is critical and telling me the timing of the forward swing is also critical.
The delay of the body moving in one direction with the arm moving in the opposite direction before the forward action is a huge key.
So in the backhand the body is rising as the bat is still going back. Then the bat has to catch up with the body like a whip. So this results in a high speed arm action.

One can actually delay the backswing to increase this whip action. This is what I have been working on in my lessons.


This video of Harimoto is a demonstration of the subtle treachery that the sport holds.  That backhand is Tenergy 05, for sure.  It has spring sponge (maybe with boosting?) that is ejecting the ball forward in the context of superb technique for the rubber being used, a springing forward of which this specific equipment is, of some degree, the source.

This matching of technique to equipment receives insufficient attention.  Whereas it is in a prominent position within the Chinese coaching system, its status recedes to much lower attention elsewhere. 

Thanks.
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icontek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:



not really.
from what I've seen most players don't use very fast equipment.
for example "primorac carbon" I've seen very few people using it.
also tenergy, let alone dignics... they don't seem to be that popular in the normal club scene (probably because of the price).

Ah. Where are you? Each time I've gone to a major metropolitan area of play (NYC, NJ, Boston, SanFran) most players use BTY products (ALC and Tenergy) at the average club level. 

Playing in rural areas, I see a little more diversity, but again, fewer players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote astaroyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2021 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by astaroyd astaroyd wrote:



not really.
from what I've seen most players don't use very fast equipment.
for example "primorac carbon" I've seen very few people using it.
also tenergy, let alone dignics... they don't seem to be that popular in the normal club scene (probably because of the price).

Ah. Where are you? Each time I've gone to a major metropolitan area of play (NYC, NJ, Boston, SanFran) most players use BTY products (ALC and Tenergy) at the average club level. 

Playing in rural areas, I see a little more diversity, but again, fewer players.

not in usa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maur1010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2021 at 1:34am
''I tried the jerky whippy strokes before, I feel like it's more unstable and  potentially injurious than the ones where the arm is completely in sync with the body rotation. ''

I do not agree with this comment. The more your body supports your arm movement, the more relaxed your arm can be.  The stroke when I get the correct mechanics feels supper smooth, effortless and powerful.

To me the word jerky implies incorrect stroke technique.

Show me a pro with jerky stokes?

If your arm is in sync with your body you need to use more effort in your arm. I feel this could lead to more injuries not less as there is more muscle tension in the arm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2021 at 2:05am
Originally posted by maur1010 maur1010 wrote:

''I tried the jerky whippy strokes before, I feel like it's more unstable and  potentially injurious than the ones where the arm is completely in sync with the body rotation. ''

I do not agree with this comment. The more your body supports your arm movement, the more relaxed your arm can be.  The stroke when I get the correct mechanics feels supper smooth, effortless and powerful.

To me the word jerky implies incorrect stroke technique.

Show me a pro with jerky stokes?

If your arm is in sync with your body you need to use more effort in your arm. I feel this could lead to more injuries not less as there is more muscle tension in the arm.
Michael Maze, Timo Boll, and a few others have quite jerky strokes. Arm being in sync with the body rotation is a key tenet of the CNT FH though. It forces you to loosen and reduce the contribution from the arm, and power through from the weight transfer in the legs. A whippier acceleration implies much more action happening in the arm.  
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