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j0rnal1sta View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08/22/2013 at 6:56pm
Hello friends.
I'm reading a paper named "A notation analysis of shot characteristics in top-level table tennis players" from Ivan Malagoli (italian researcher). 

He described in his paper a footwork classification for video analysis, but it's difficult for me imagine this classification in practice. 

Please, if you understood them, please post  here a video or picture illustrating it.

Chassè: a side step consisting of sliding laterraly first the foot opposite to the direction of displacement, and then the other foot 

Slide: a side step consisting of first sliding laterally the foot corresponding to the directon of displacement, and then the other foot

Pivot: a turn step consisting of a slide or chassè in which the side movement of the last moving foot is associated to a back movement of it in order to rotate the trunk around a vertical axis (very confuse for me)

Crossover: a wide side step performed by sliding laterraly first the foot opposite to the direction of displacement, and then the other foot. Due to the amplitude of its displacement, the first moved foot runs up the other one before completing the movement. 

These are the footwork types that i have difficult to understand. If you can illustrate them, i will be very grateful. Bye
 


Edited by j0rnal1sta - 08/22/2013 at 7:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 7:18pm
try to look for the killerspin instructional video on youtube. i think the footwork terms you are lookign for are included in that video
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 8:08pm
These are not necessarily standard terms in table tennis, although their meaning seems pretty clear to me.  Can you post a link to the paper?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 8:46pm
If you need explanations about the 1st 2 (chase & slide) let me know.

about the pivot:
I assume a right handed player in what follows.
To picture the pivot, imagine 2 circles on the ground, side to side.
Your feet are at 9 o'clock (left foot) and 3 o'clock (right foot) on the right circle.
You jump to the left circle and you land with your left foot at 11 o'clock and your right foot at 5 o'clock.
You have made a pivot to setup a fh from the bh corner.

Very often the pivot is preceded by a side step where both feet are jumping to the left at the same time.

Here is a wonderful clip to illustrate the pivot (at 1min52 second, pay attention to the Falkenberg drill): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nD04UQiZsyw&t=112

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote V-Griper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 9:12pm
I use these for basic foot work reference. Some of them match the descriptions you gave.















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j0rnal1sta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

These are not necessarily standard terms in table tennis, although their meaning seems pretty clear to me.  Can you post a link to the paper?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23869627 - Link of abstrac. Give me your email and i send the full text.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j0rnal1sta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

If you need explanations about the 1st 2 (chase & slide) let me know.

about the pivot:
I assume a right handed player in what follows.
To picture the pivot, imagine 2 circles on the ground, side to side.
Your feet are at 9 o'clock (left foot) and 3 o'clock (right foot) on the right circle.
You jump to the left circle and you land with your left foot at 11 o'clock and your right foot at 5 o'clock.
You have made a pivot to setup a fh from the bh corner.

Very often the pivot is preceded by a side step where both feet are jumping to the left at the same time.

Here is a wonderful clip to illustrate the pivot (at 1min52 second, pay attention to the Falkenberg drill): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nD04UQiZsyw&t=112


Hello, thanks for posting. I understand your explanation, very good. Thank's for the video too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j0rnal1sta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 10:56pm
Originally posted by V-Griper V-Griper wrote:

I use these for basic foot work reference. Some of them match the descriptions you gave.



Thanks for the videos. I will check them =)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 11:10pm
OK, now I see maybe what you are not understanding because of language.  It was not obvious for even a native English speaker but I think I get it now.  I am not sure I can find video that explains each move by itself, but maybe I can put it in words easier to understand. 

First the terms slide and chasse as the authors of the paper are using them.  

Imagine a right handed player is moving to his left.  In a slide, the player first moves his left foot straight to the left (sliding along the ground if the floor is wood or concrete) and then his right foot follows.  In this move, the body does not rotate.  The player's chest maintains the same angle to the back of the table.  The chasse is the same except that the player pushes off with his right foot first (if he is moving to the left).  Again the body does not rotate.  You can make a slide or a chasse to the left or to the right.  What I described is for a player moving to the left.  You will be able to move farther to the left using a chasse than a slide.  If your floor is modern, like Gerflor, it is hard to slide, but you can still step to the left with your left foot first.  The authors would still use the term "slide" to describe that. 

A pivot happens when the player also rotates his body significantly.  As he moves to his left (using either a slide or a chasse) he also turns his body so that his chest is no longer parallel to the back of the table.  This happens when you move to the left and then hit a forehand (step around and loop) from the backhand side of the table.  With the pivot in that case you end up with your left shoulder being much closer to the table than your right shoulder.  (Again, this assumes right-handed player).

A slide does not let you move very far.  A chasse is necessary to move you farther.  A pivot is needed to move to your left and still hit a forehand (for right handed player).  A right handed player would rarely pivot during a move to the right (and doing that is a bad habit).  The reason is this would put you in position to hit a backhand from the forehand side. 

I hope this helps, and thanks for sending me the paper.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j0rnal1sta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2013 at 11:51pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

OK, now I see maybe what you are not understanding because of language.  It was not obvious for even a native English speaker but I think I get it now.  I am not sure I can find video that explains each move by itself, but maybe I can put it in words easier to understand. 

First the terms slide and chasse as the authors of the paper are using them.  

Imagine a right handed player is moving to his left.  In a slide, the player first moves his left foot straight to the left (sliding along the ground if the floor is wood or concrete) and then his right foot follows.  In this move, the body does not rotate.  The player's chest maintains the same angle to the back of the table.  The chasse is the same except that the player pushes off with his right foot first (if he is moving to the left).  Again the body does not rotate.  You can make a slide or a chasse to the left or to the right.  What I described is for a player moving to the left.  You will be able to move farther to the left using a chasse than a slide.  If your floor is modern, like Gerflor, it is hard to slide, but you can still step to the left with your left foot first.  The authors would still use the term "slide" to describe that. 

A pivot happens when the player also rotates his body significantly.  As he moves to his left (using either a slide or a chasse) he also turns his body so that his chest is no longer parallel to the back of the table.  This happens when you move to the left and then hit a forehand (step around and loop) from the backhand side of the table.  With the pivot in that case you end up with your left shoulder being much closer to the table than your right shoulder.  (Again, this assumes right-handed player).

A slide does not let you move very far.  A chasse is necessary to move you farther.  A pivot is needed to move to your left and still hit a forehand (for right handed player).  A right handed player would rarely pivot during a move to the right (and doing that is a bad habit).  The reason is this would put you in position to hit a backhand from the forehand side. 

I hope this helps, and thanks for sending me the paper.


Thank you very much for the explanation! Before your explanation i had understood only a part of the concepts used by the authors, but now it's clear. I will record some table tennis players doing this footwork categories (maybe i record myself doing it) and post here for your evaluation. 

I am reading english papers a few months with ease, but this part of the article was very difficult. I don't write very well in English,  but reading isn't so hard. Thank you again.

I have other interesting papers, if you want i can send them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2013 at 4:01am
Haha, I use them both all the time and never called them that great stuff. I use the Chasse a lot more in doubles as the ball is hit at the partner a lot.
 
Koreans like to use the term 2 Step a lot for a movement that is something between a slide and a chasse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2013 at 4:05am
Then again, Koreans have different terms for the same stuff that the rest of the English speaking TT community uses.
 
For example, in regular English speaking TT world, a drive is a light topspin shot used primarily for speed and placement to apply pressure or for a rally shot.
 
In Korean TT a drive is a heavy topspin shot that the rest of the English speaking TT world calls a Loop. What we call a Drive, Koreans call it a Hwa if done on FH and if done on BH it is called a Shot (hard O pronounced like Shote).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2013 at 5:29am
isn't the slide also called shuffling? and the chasse soem sort of a baby step side step as what the chinese coach is talking about in the video posted above?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2013 at 6:09am
Yogi, is baby step and half step the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/23/2013 at 11:48am
I have heard many different terms for those moves, and I hadn't heard the terms "slide" and "chasse" before.  So I did some searching and found out that these are technical terms used in choreography (formal language used to describe dance moves).  The term chasse originally comes from ballet terminology.  So, the authors of the paper j0rnal1sta sent me were trying to describe table tennis footwork using technical terms that other experts in physical education and dance would understand.  These terms are used to define a dance in choreography the same way written notes are used to define a piece of music.  So that is why the word "notational" appeared in the title of the paper.  The paper attempted to quantify how often each of these steps were used by high level players during normal play.  I am assuming that the value of this might be in figuring out more efficient ways to train TT footwork.


Edited by Baal - 08/23/2013 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/27/2013 at 10:00am
tony, yes baby step is like the half step
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