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1 ply Hinoki Blades

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 10:11am
nice? ..Sorry didn't mean to be rude.. But it is a genuine question, i can't assume from the answer that s/he uses 7ply before. That's why i am verifying..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Pongz Pongz wrote:

Have you used 7ply before?


If your 7-p-ly is very stiff (almost no flex) then I am pretty sure it blocks good as well. The main advantage of 1-ply blades in blocking is their absence of flex. Combine that with softness of Hinoki and you get very good short game as well. If the blade is thick enough you get the attacking power - so almost everything you need (except good flex which helps with looping) is in one nice package.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 10:43am
Why are stiffer blades harder to loop with? Is it purely about dwell time?
 
I thought flexy blades had some merits when it came to blocking given the vibrations and feedback the blocker gets.


Edited by NextLevel - 10/02/2012 at 10:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 10:48am
Thanks JimT that clarify few things for me..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caballero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 11:40am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Why are stiffer blades harder to loop with? Is it purely about dwell time?
 
I thought flexy blades had some merits when it came to blocking given the vibrations and feedback the blocker gets.

I second this question. Would like to read what JimT has to say about this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by caballero caballero wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Why are stiffer blades harder to loop with? Is it purely about dwell time?
 
I thought flexy blades had some merits when it came to blocking given the vibrations and feedback the blocker gets.

I second this question. Would like to read what JimT has to say about this. 


Stiff blade has NO catapult therefore when you loop there is no help from the blade in that aspect. Also if your blade is relatively thin (which is usually the case with regular flexy blades, you cannot really expect 8 or 9 mm blade to be flexible, not to mention 1-ply) then its flex helps somewhat with the dwell time as the bend of the blade keeps the ball a little longer on the rubber - the ball even while moving along or being just off the surface of the rubber is being "enveloped" by the slightly concave surface of the blade (as a result of the impact it is still being non-flat for a few micro-seconds).

That's why if you want to loop with 1P blade you need to choose your rubbers properly - I always advised MAX thickness on FH (or at least 2.0 mm) and not super hard sponge; or if it's hard then it better be somewhat sticky as well. If you are playing close to the table then the rubber can be soft, but if you are using it from all points then too soft a rubber might bottom out and fail you when executing an aggressive attack from, say, 10 feet away.

About blocks: flexy blades are not relatively great at blocking. Notice that I am not saying they are bad - that depends on your individual ability. If you learned how to handle blocks and how to follow the ball with your flexy blade when blocking - more power to you. But the fact is that non-flex blades (all thick 1Ps are very stiff of course) are way more linear and thus there is no need to adjust the stroke from simply putting the blade in front of the ball (at proper angle, of course!).

Flex of the blade (and/or vibration) adds some non-linear component to the bounce of the ball - and that complicates things. Thick (non-vibration) non-flexy blades with less sensitive rubbers (like SP or hard topsheet rubbers) therefore are really the best choice for blocks. It doesn't have to be a 1P blade - my Galaxy W-1 blade (6.3 mm) has some flex but not a lot of it, zero vibration, and therefore is better at blocking than all other "thin" blades I have tried (and that's like 30 of them).

Some people will say "look I am playing with my flexy XYZ blade and it's great at blocking so your theory is bunk". My answer is "but have you really tried to play same rubbers with adjusted technique on thick non-vibration blades?". If you make claims you need to have done some comparisons. Otherwise it's like saying "pizza is the best food on Earth because it's the best stuff I have ever eaten in my native little hamlet of Nowhere, Montana" (no offense to great state of Montana, I just used them as a place which is not generally famous for having huge diversity in local cuisine).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/02/2012 at 4:29pm
Excellent explanation, JimT.   

I have more difficulty in blocking using 5 ply blades such as P500 but I blocks better using Korbel like blades but even better using 7 ply.

JimT, I ordered American Hinoki WRC 9mm. Do you think rubbers like Galaxy Sun, H3 neo match fine with WRC?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caballero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 3:00am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

 
Stiff blade has NO catapult therefore when you loop there is no help from the blade in that aspect. Also if your blade is relatively thin (which is usually the case with regular flexy blades, you cannot really expect 8 or 9 mm blade to be flexible, not to mention 1-ply) then its flex helps somewhat with the dwell time as the bend of the blade keeps the ball a little longer on the rubber - the ball even while moving along or being just off the surface of the rubber is being "enveloped" by the slightly concave surface of the blade (as a result of the impact it is still being non-flat for a few micro-seconds).

That's why if you want to loop with 1P blade you need to choose your rubbers properly - I always advised MAX thickness on FH (or at least 2.0 mm) and not super hard sponge; or if it's hard then it better be somewhat sticky as well. If you are playing close to the table then the rubber can be soft, but if you are using it from all points then too soft a rubber might bottom out and fail you when executing an aggressive attack from, say, 10 feet away.

About blocks: flexy blades are not relatively great at blocking. Notice that I am not saying they are bad - that depends on your individual ability. If you learned how to handle blocks and how to follow the ball with your flexy blade when blocking - more power to you. But the fact is that non-flex blades (all thick 1Ps are very stiff of course) are way more linear and thus there is no need to adjust the stroke from simply putting the blade in front of the ball (at proper angle, of course!).

Flex of the blade (and/or vibration) adds some non-linear component to the bounce of the ball - and that complicates things. Thick (non-vibration) non-flexy blades with less sensitive rubbers (like SP or hard topsheet rubbers) therefore are really the best choice for blocks. It doesn't have to be a 1P blade - my Galaxy W-1 blade (6.3 mm) has some flex but not a lot of it, zero vibration, and therefore is better at blocking than all other "thin" blades I have tried (and that's like 30 of them).

Some people will say "look I am playing with my flexy XYZ blade and it's great at blocking so your theory is bunk". My answer is "but have you really tried to play same rubbers with adjusted technique on thick non-vibration blades?". If you make claims you need to have done some comparisons. Otherwise it's like saying "pizza is the best food on Earth because it's the best stuff I have ever eaten in my native little hamlet of Nowhere, Montana" (no offense to great state of Montana, I just used them as a place which is not generally famous for having huge diversity in local cuisine).

JimT, this is such a good answer that I am saving it in my "database of blade knowledge." Tongue And yes, I am offended by your reference to Montana not having the best pizza. After all, you have not been at my hamlet yet and tried the local's Greek pizzeria here. It is undoubtedly the best!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomas.gt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 8:41am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


Stiff blade has NO catapult therefore when you loop there is no help from the blade in that aspect. Also if your blade is relatively thin (which is usually the case with regular flexy blades, you cannot really expect 8 or 9 mm blade to be flexible, not to mention 1-ply) then its flex helps somewhat with the dwell time as the bend of the blade keeps the ball a little longer on the rubber - the ball even while moving along or being just off the surface of the rubber is being "enveloped" by the slightly concave surface of the blade (as a result of the impact it is still being non-flat for a few micro-seconds).

Wouldn't say so. Stiff blades do have catapult, coming from deformation of the layers, when ball sinks into the plies of the blade. Then generally thick core of the blade compresses and when it naturally expands, accelerate the ball, thus the catapult effect. Flexible blades combines this effect with 'bending' effect together.
1ply hinoki blades have enormous catapult effect as the ball sinks into the wooden layer. Therefore it is very important, how much the hinoki wood is hard/soft. Soft hinoki wood helps a lot when you loop. It is still stiff and precise, but keeps the ball on the blade and in the rubber for longer time, giving higher arc and easier loops. Some butterfly senkohs are made from young and soft hinoki wood and these blades may provide the easiest loops. On the other hand, they keep the ball too long, so when you need to play direct/flat hits, it becomes annoying, because it still produces some unwanted arc.
For 1ply hinoki blades, it is valid that the material and its hardness determines, how the blade is good for looping
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

That's why if you want to loop with 1P blade you need to choose your rubbers properly - I always advised MAX thickness on FH (or at least 2.0 mm) and not super hard sponge; or if it's hard then it better be somewhat sticky as well. If you are playing close to the table then the rubber can be soft, but if you are using it from all points then too soft a rubber might bottom out and fail you when executing an aggressive attack from, say, 10 feet away.

Well, my results/endings are the same, but the reason for them is not that simple as you mentioned ;)
The catapult of the hinoki blade and the hardness of the rubber must be in harmony. Too soft rubber make the blade wild (suddenly, when the ball reaches the blade itself), so does the very hard rubber. Medium rubbers 'borrow' the catapult effect from the blade, the dynamics is transferred from hinoki to the rubber, making the bat more predictable and harmonizing. The result is quite surprising, because thicker rubbers are more controlable on 1ply hinoki blades than thin rubbers, which is the opposite of what is being thought. Thick rubbers just reduces the wildness and extreme catapult of the blade, making it more controlable.
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


About blocks: flexy blades are not relatively great at blocking. Notice that I am not saying they are bad - that depends on your individual ability. If you learned how to handle blocks and how to follow the ball with your flexy blade when blocking - more power to you. But the fact is that non-flex blades (all thick 1Ps are very stiff of course) are way more linear and thus there is no need to adjust the stroke from simply putting the blade in front of the ball (at proper angle, of course!).

Flex of the blade (and/or vibration) adds some non-linear component to the bounce of the ball - and that complicates things. Thick (non-vibration) non-flexy blades with less sensitive rubbers (like SP or hard topsheet rubbers) therefore are really the best choice for blocks. It doesn't have to be a 1P blade - my Galaxy W-1 blade (6.3 mm) has some flex but not a lot of it, zero vibration, and therefore is better at blocking than all other "thin" blades I have tried (and that's like 30 of them).

Some people will say "look I am playing with my flexy XYZ blade and it's great at blocking so your theory is bunk". My answer is "but have you really tried to play same rubbers with adjusted technique on thick non-vibration blades?". If you make claims you need to have done some comparisons. Otherwise it's like saying "pizza is the best food on Earth because it's the best stuff I have ever eaten in my native little hamlet of Nowhere, Montana" (no offense to great state of Montana, I just used them as a place which is not generally famous for having huge diversity in local cuisine).
I would not say that 1ply hinoki blades are the greatest for blocking. They have too much catapult effect in them and the faster the loop, the harder to put the ball on the table.
 
1ply hinoki blades are so specific, that comparing them to other blades is useless. They have both advantages and disadvantages. And also, every blade is different, depending on the material used.
 
Oh and one more thing: 1ply thick blades are worse for looping because of their thickness, esp.above the table
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 9:02am
so if 1 ply does not have advantage in looping and blocking, what are the strong points of 1 ply? speed or flat kill?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Pongz Pongz wrote:

so if 1 ply does not have advantage in looping and blocking, what are the strong points of 1 ply? speed or flat kill?


Well, tomas.gt has his own opinion about 1Ps not being great in blocking but it contradicts vast majority of 1P players on the market. So I wouldn't be worried about that being your case.

Also - when we say catapult for the blade then it doesn't refer to that tiny (in comparison) "catapult" effect produced by the wood repulsing the ball by the virtue of elasticity of the wood (that is, the wood "caves under" the force of the impact and then restores to being flat, thus pushing the ball back). Catapult in TT (for blades) refers almost exclusively to the blade flexing and un-flexing during the stroke. The one that tomas.gt describes has nothing to do with flex/stiffness, it is dependent rather on the qualities of the outer wood layer, type of wood used.

Once again, strong points of 1P blades are:

a) blocking
b) short game especially on FH
c) having many gears, being versatile in almost all strokes
d) flat game like block-push, fishing, flat attacks, smashes

weak points

a) looping (to a degree; also depends on the rubbers used)
b) BH game over the table (due to thickness of the blade it is less comfortable to flip on BH)
c) some extra bounce on BH, that's why I do not recommend using very bouncy tensors on BH with 1P or fast SPs like max thickness 802-40 for instance.

And of course it is all only from my experience, and as they say "mileage may vary".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W0LovePP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 11:37am
I have a Darker speed90. It is powerful, close to table smash, and away from the table loopig.
However, it is very hard to do a close to table push, both fh and bh. I tried 1.0 mm rubber on back hand side. It still does the same.
It should be an awesome weapon if you are an attacker from both sides.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by W0LovePP W0LovePP wrote:

I have a Darker speed90. It is powerful, close to table smash, and away from the table loopig.
However, it is very hard to do a close to table push, both fh and bh. I tried 1.0 mm rubber on back hand side. It still does the same.
It should be an awesome weapon if you are an attacker from both sides.
 


Have you played it more than 1-2 sessions? It really does require 2 weeks of getting used too, believe me. But after that you don't want to go back to thin blades Big smile
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Yes, I played with it for quite a while.
 
The main problem is that pushing rises high. I strugled with finding the right rubber for the backhand side. If anyone has found the perfect backhand rubber to sovle the backhand pushes, Darker Speed90 is a perfect blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/03/2012 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by W0LovePP W0LovePP wrote:

Yes, I played with it for quite a while.
 
The main problem is that pushing rises high. I strugled with finding the right rubber for the backhand side. If anyone has found the perfect backhand rubber to sovle the backhand pushes, Darker Speed90 is a perfect blade.


It might be the problem in your grip. The problem of thick blades is that when you hold it at the same angle (same grip) as thin blades then on BH its angle deviates a bit from regular (with respect to the plane of the table); basically it is a bot more horizontal than it should be so it pushes the ball more in the up direction than it should.

So it really demands some adjustment in the grip. It played quite OK for me after this adjustment with rather standard BH rubbers (like Palio Blitz 2.0 and GD Karate Hard and some others)
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Originally posted by W0LovePP W0LovePP wrote:

Yes, I played with it for quite a while.
 
The main problem is that pushing rises high. I strugled with finding the right rubber for the backhand side. If anyone has found the perfect backhand rubber to sovle the backhand pushes, Darker Speed90 is a perfect blade.


As JimT said you can use a slower rubber for your Backhand which should help with your overall backhand push and general play. I'd also recommend possibly a slower tacky rubber on the backhand which will help with your pushing. And spinnier backhand loops.

I'm currently also using a Darker Speed 90 shake hand and am loving it.
I was previously using a American Hinoki WRC 10mm (which has now become my backup blade), but find the Darker Speed 90 to have better feel / feedback and is slightly slower then the WRC 10mm.
Which is better for me as I am not at the skill level to be able to take advantage of the extra speed...

Try a slower rubber and let us know what you think.
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Thanks JimT for your explanation.. looking forward to try 1st ever 1 ply WRC 9mm... Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2012 at 8:13pm
I received my American Hinoki WRC 9.0mm 81gr... It is beautiful and play superbly... I played twice

I would say WRC is at least as fast as Sardius or Joola Kool.. it is good to know that we can have the same kind of speed without the need of carbon...

Compare to my usual 7ply Yasaka Extra Special, WRC is noticably faster, similar crispiness, solid in smashing... so in terms of attacking, I found myself comfortable...

However, for my style, I like YES better than WRC in blocking... Not only YES is more consistent (maybe because it is slower and I am still not used to WRC).. but I found also WRC produces different kind of blocked balls... for passive blocks, I feel the ball slow down a lot... I am sure it will work for others but it kind of messed up my rthym for my style.. I am trying to play like the women style, close table left right...

Could one of the 'Guru' share some light? What should I do if want to play like the women style but using WRC? Is my only option to do active block?

Thanks       
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2012 at 8:18pm
For all the 1-ply fans out there, I have a 1ply cpen (darker jspeed 90) available for sale.  Check the link in my signature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maktime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2012 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by Pongz Pongz wrote:

I received my American Hinoki WRC 9.0mm 81gr... It is beautiful and play superbly... I played twice

I would say WRC is at least as fast as Sardius or Joola Kool.. it is good to know that we can have the same kind of speed without the need of carbon...

Compare to my usual 7ply Yasaka Extra Special, WRC is noticably faster, similar crispiness, solid in smashing... so in terms of attacking, I found myself comfortable...

However, for my style, I like YES better than WRC in blocking... Not only YES is more consistent (maybe because it is slower and I am still not used to WRC).. but I found also WRC produces different kind of blocked balls... for passive blocks, I feel the ball slow down a lot... I am sure it will work for others but it kind of messed up my rthym for my style.. I am trying to play like the women style, close table left right...

Could one of the 'Guru' share some light? What should I do if want to play like the women style but using WRC? Is my only option to do active block?

Thanks       


Glad that you got a WRC blade from Kevin at American Hinoki.
He definitely makes great blades!

How do you generally block? do you block early? off the bounce / on the early rise?
Depending on what kind of shot is coming at you can still do a passive block.
I do both passive and active blocks to mess up the opponents timing.
If you block off the bounce / early the ball will go back quite quick as you're using your opponents force / power...

And I also play quit close to the table as well with some mid distance power looping and chopping in the mix every now and then.

Hope that helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/25/2012 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by maktime maktime wrote:

Originally posted by Pongz Pongz wrote:

I received my American Hinoki WRC 9.0mm 81gr... It is beautiful and play superbly... I played twice

I would say WRC is at least as fast as Sardius or Joola Kool.. it is good to know that we can have the same kind of speed without the need of carbon...

Compare to my usual 7ply Yasaka Extra Special, WRC is noticably faster, similar crispiness, solid in smashing... so in terms of attacking, I found myself comfortable...

However, for my style, I like YES better than WRC in blocking... Not only YES is more consistent (maybe because it is slower and I am still not used to WRC).. but I found also WRC produces different kind of blocked balls... for passive blocks, I feel the ball slow down a lot... I am sure it will work for others but it kind of messed up my rthym for my style.. I am trying to play like the women style, close table left right...

Could one of the 'Guru' share some light? What should I do if want to play like the women style but using WRC? Is my only option to do active block?

Thanks       


Glad that you got a WRC blade from Kevin at American Hinoki.
He definitely makes great blades!

How do you generally block? do you block early? off the bounce / on the early rise?
Depending on what kind of shot is coming at you can still do a passive block.
I do both passive and active blocks to mess up the opponents timing.
If you block off the bounce / early the ball will go back quite quick as you're using your opponents force / power...

And I also play quit close to the table as well with some mid distance power looping and chopping in the mix every now and then.

Hope that helps.

Thanks maktime.. I think I blocked most of the ball on the rise...  if I have time, normally I counter drive.. however if I am out of position or against strong loop or strong smash, I tend to do passive block... because it is slowing down, there is ample time for the opponent to do strong attack again...

With my 7 ply, the blocked ball from passive still rebound very quickly... just in and out... giving less time for my opponent to attack again... 

I'll pay more attention whether I can do more block earlier... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/26/2012 at 9:52am
1 ply H blades got very good feeling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2012 at 11:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tiehwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2012 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

http://www.ping-pong.tw/product_info.php?products_id=3140
Anyone tried one of these yet?
I'm waiting to see you dipping in there  first. Big smile
I got an old Taipei buddy who's now there visiting his old mommy. He kept asking me b4 he left whether I need anything, esp. pingpong stuffs, he said this Tony's place & the other 2 which don't do shipping are known to him, yet he's not a t/t equip. knowledgeable..So, I said that's ok o buddy, go enjoy ur trip not to worry about my t/t stuffs....


Edited by tiehwen - 10/27/2012 at 12:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2012 at 12:46pm
I got one on the way LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tiehwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2012 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by jpenmaster jpenmaster wrote:

I got one on the way LOL
LOL? Only 1? nah....at least couple, I'd guess...Big smile
Jpen > DEF Shkhnd > Cpen then back to Jpen again? Jack of all trades, eh? What? You still have time to venture out to shop & play? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpenmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2012 at 1:22pm
LOL i don't think there is anything i haven't tried. I always have a few jpens though.
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