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Long Pips versus Anti Spin

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tommyzai View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/18/2008 at 10:08pm
Which is better to use for:

HITTING
BLOCKING
CHOPPING
SERVING
REVERSAL/DECEPTION
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote melarimsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2008 at 11:02pm
I see people do magic with Anti ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goldfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 12:04am
either you are a chopper or a blocker use long pips.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 1:35am
Originally posted by goldfish goldfish wrote:

either you are a chopper or a blocker use long pips.


I wish I could find an expert who doesn't know me at all to look at me play and recommend what he/she thinks would work best for me. I've gotten great advice from players/friends I trust, but they know me so they're advice might be colored by all I've told them along the way.

Everytime I try Anti or LP I hate them, maybe because I played with the PF4 most of my life. It's very very sticky like flypaper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 1:39am
One thing I never liked about Anti is the weight. It adds more grams than most LP, which often work best OX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 2:07am
Anti is obsolete. There is no way a good player will ever fall for the 'dead' balls' unless they've never played a junk player.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pjotr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 2:09am
LP have more possibilities:
- blocking: anti...always spin reversal; LP, depends...normally spin reversal, but when the ball hits the base (ie fast balls) it reacts more or less as a normal inverted rubber
- attacking: LP are usually faster. Some can even do power loops with it...
- chopping: with LP it is possible to put spin , depending on the stroke. A good anti is so 'slick' that it only reverses spin.
- control: I think anti is easier to control, but the price is: less possibilities.
My advice would be: if you wanna practice to be able to control them and take use of their possibilities: use LP; otherwise use anti.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 2:16am
Everything you talk about refers to spin. There is more to the game than spin. When you talk Seemiller style, it involves drop blocks, change of pace and flat hits.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pjotr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 2:32am
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

Everything you talk about refers to spin. There is more to the game than spin. When you talk Seemiller style, it involves drop blocks, change of pace and flat hits.

I agree...but I thought: why use pips or anti if it's not for the spin variations?
Actually, I might be too 'focused' on it...the possible spin variations is probably what I like most about our game.
For pure hitting, short pips might be an option?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 3:45am
In what way might anti inverted be better than a medium pips out?   Both of them can be pretty fast and hit through spin. Both tend to kill spin as opposed to passing spin through.  What advantages might anti inverted have? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2008 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

In what way might anti inverted be better than a medium pips out?�� Both of them can be pretty fast and hit through spin. Both tend to kill spin as opposed to passing spin through.� What advantages might anti inverted have?�


I don't know, but now you got me thinking! And that is always dangerous and leads to more money spending!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grubbafan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2008 at 3:10pm
There's an exception...Butterfly Super Anti doesn't kill off spin like most Anti rubbers, but reverse the spin. The topsheet is very slippery. Dr Neubauer Gorilla also have spin reversal characteristics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2008 at 4:55pm
grubbafan,
   You are right.  BTY anti is very good at reversing spin. It is also one of the slowest out there. For my game, (Attack) The slow rubbers on the back side are used for drop blocks and spin reversal mostly. Also pushing and serve return. Good servers get their own spin back mirror image.
     I am more interested in REAL slow rubbers on the back side as I can use my inverted on both backhand and forhand without twiddling.
     I am using Peace Keeper right now on the back. It is VERY slow when blocking. Has reversal on hard loops, is easy to return serve with and is the rubber with the most control of any I have tried.
     You can also hit ANY ball that has backspin on it, including serves.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a23096713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2008 at 4:55pm
front my experience with it,
as learning how to use it,
Anti is easier to learn and master with shorter period of time, it varies in brand as well, but comparing with long pip, the flat surface can be easier to learn how to control the shots, where as long pip will bend their pips causing as much confusion for yourself.
 
Moreover, long pip varies between brand (friendship 755 versus Feint Long 2) and would need considerable much longer time to master
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a23096713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2008 at 5:07pm
to contribute more input,
 
Anti
- Hitting is good and controllable except it's tend to be slower than long pip as Anti usuauly come with dead sponge.
- Blocking is better than long pip as Anti kills off the spin & speed much easier with similar reason stated above
- Chopping can be done as well as the long pip without much problem
- Serving with Anti is more effective as opponent doesn't always realize it's from Anti-spin (very useful with combination of normal inverted)
- Reversal/Deception are good, but generally not as good as long pip, but in return, your control is much easier
 
 
Long pips,
- Hitting comes out faster most of the time and hard to lift, hitting for long pip is better with lower degree in control
- Blocking is generally not as well as Anti, could be hard to do. however it could be done easier with OX
- Chopping is no issue, skill dependent
- Serving isn't always a good choice for one who is well understood on long pip characteristic, and hard to confused as it's more obvious when opponent can see it most of the time.
- Reversal/Deception is better as it's very easy to add spin toward incoming balls. It could generate a decend push for some long pip, thus more deception if you can use long pip well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2008 at 7:51pm
a23096713,
     Good input!Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grubbafan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2008 at 1:06am
Hookshot,

I heard Hallmark Mirage has a very slow sponge. I've never tested the rubber, though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MayaV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2008 at 1:10am
is Galaxy Neptune an Anti pips out rubber???

link: http://yinhe1986.cn/english/news/27/2006331163237.htm

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Flashback!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 3:10am

LP's - harder to use but more variation of shots. learning takes awhile

Anti - easiest to use, weaker BH off the table. You can learn how to use in 4 hours with a good coach, push, block, punch, serve return.

Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 02/27/2014 at 3:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 4:57am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:


LP's - harder to use but more variation of shots. learning takes awhile

Anti - easiest to use, weaker BH off the table. You can learn how to use in 4 hours with a good coach, push, block, punch, serve return.


Gee, wish I had access to such good coaches. Ive been playing with anti since frictionless LPs where banned and I still have a lot to learn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 7:55am
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Anti - easiest to use, weaker BH off the table. You can learn how to use in 4 hours with a good coach, push, block, punch, serve return.
That would depend on the type of anti. I agree if you are talking about a classic anti like BTY Super Anti or Yasaka Anti Power. It is not true for completely slick antis such as the Dr. Neubauer (like ABS) or Der Materialspezialist (like Beast) antis. For those you would need at least 6 month to get to the same level as before switching as the are much more difficult to control and it is a completely different game compared to classic anti.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 11:10am
would you say anti is a slower version of sp? cause thats kinda what i am getting the impression of!

Matt; why do you choose to play with anti instead of LPs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 11:55am
+1. Antis have mostly fallen out of favor in favor of LPs. I've been using LPs, but I like the idea of both surfaces being smooth, which makes it harder for the opponent to recognize which side is being used; however, every time I try to make the switch to anti I get frustrated and give up before I figure out how to use it. I have a sheet of Dr. Neubauer Gorilla sitting here in a package. Hmmmm.

Matt, please let me be an echo . . . why do you choose to play with anti instead of LPs?

:-).


Edited by tommyzai - 02/27/2014 at 11:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toprank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 12:55pm
I know a 1900 level anti player and he likes his anti with a thicker sponge and as dead as possible. He uses a seemiller type grip and twiddles a lot. He likes the control of the anti. He'll loop with a regular rubber and then twiddle and loop with the anti, and man that's difficult to deal with. He's more of a Blocker/Looper...not much pure chopping.  Since he's one of the top players in our gym a couple of other guys have adopted anti. They don't play it quite like he does, but I think the difference between LP's and Anti are not as big as you would think.
 
Another advantage of anti is return of serve. I think it's easier than long pips to return difficult serves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Anti - easiest to use, weaker BH off the table. You can learn how to use in 4 hours with a good coach, push, block, punch, serve return.

That would depend on the type of anti. I agree if you are talking about a classic anti like BTY Super Anti or Yasaka Anti Power. It is not true for completely slick antis such as the Dr. Neubauer (like ABS) or Der Materialspezialist (like Beast) antis. For those you would need at least 6 month to get to the same level as before switching as the are much more difficult to control and it is a completely different game compared to classic anti.


I once took a very low level player, let him use a paddle I had with anti-spin on one side, showed him how to use it. After about 45-60 minutes of use, I asked a player rated 1600 to serve his best stuff to him. The anti-spin player was able to return 80% of the serves. I then asked the anti-spin player to use his normal two sided inverted rubber paddle, I asked the higher rated player now to serve to him again, he couldn't return over 20% of the serves without popping them up big or off the table.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 1:56pm
Another advantage of anti, most of the passive returns of your opponent against the anti have predictable less spin so it is easy to attack with a hit or loop with your inverted 4H.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Matt; why do you choose to play with anti instead of LPs?
I only played LP (Feint soft 1.0 and Feint ox) for 2 seasons when I was a junior back in the day in Germany and I was quite succesful with it but that was over when I moved up playing with adults (age >19). I then moved to medium pips when BTY came out with the Magnitude and I changed my style to playing close to the table looping with FH and blocking/hitting with MP. I then did not play at all for 18 years and started to play again 2 years ago in the US with MP (I tried pretty much all MPs on the market plus a few short pips). A little less than a year ago I tried Dr. Neubauer ABS anti more or less just for fun but I liked ti so much that I stayed with it.
The slick Dr. N or Der Materialspezialist antis give you extreme spin reversal like the now banned frictionless LPs (like Dr. N Superblock) used to give you. So if you do a passive block on a topspin loop the ball comes back with extreme underspin; some people say the reversal with a slick anti is even better than with frictionless pips. If you aggressivle push against underspin the ball comes back with topspin and gets a really cool kick off the bounce. So the slick anti works very well against players who use a lot of spin (loop, serve, etc.) however against players with no spin (like hardbat or short pip) it becomes very difficult.
If you want to play close to the table (looping with FH) blocking with your backhand at some level it becomes very difficult to block or return the loops with a legal long pip with friction. At a high level the only way to use long pips is to chop away from the table which is not my game. However, with the slick anti to play a disruptive game at the table but they are not good for chopping away from the table.
 
Originally posted by Toprank Toprank wrote:

Another advantage of anti is return of serve. I think it's easier than long pips to return difficult serves.
Yes, if you get very spinny serve but long no-spin serves are actually quite difficult to return and will obviously come back with no spin which makes them easy to attack.
 
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

would you say anti is a slower version of sp? cause thats kinda what i am getting the impression of!
A classic anti (like BTY Super Anti) might be somewhat similar to a medium pip in that it creates no-spin balls.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 5:45pm
I have been using Grass DtecS LPs for about 2-years. I have been very successful at an intermediate level with 1750 being the highest level player I won games off. In all fairness to myself, I have not played anyone higher than that lately to determine if I could win games, but I suspect NO. I have a lot of trouble playing a combination game against players with old dead rubbers or short pips . . . they do not give me any spin to work with. I tried Dr. N Gorilla one night and it was a disaster. I'm not saying it isn't good; I'm just saying it requires a much different stroke than LPs. I particularly had trouble returning serves. Chop blocking did not work. I would like to try anti again, but I'm just not sure I it will be more effective for me than LPs. Yet, I need to make some changes. It's become clear to me that I will never see 2000 level the way I'm going with LPs on BH.

Edited by tommyzai - 02/27/2014 at 5:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2014 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

I tried Dr. N Gorilla one night and it was a disaster. I'm not saying it isn't good; I'm just saying it requires a much different stroke than LPs. I particularly had trouble returning serves. Chop blocking did not work. I would like to try anti again, but I'm just not sure I it will be more effective for me than LPs. Yet, I need to make some changes. It's become clear to me that I will never see 2000 level the way I'm going with LPs on BH.
Tommy, don't give up yet! Wink
First off all, if you want to try a slick anti do NOT start with Gorilla because it is the most difficult one to play with and most who try it cannot tame it. Start out with a slower one like Dr. N ABS or Der Materialspezialist Beat, both in 1.2. You will also have to adjust your strokes compared to what you have been using with the DTecs. Do not chop block with a slick anti but only to a passive block against a loop. Just hold your paddle there (with the right angle) and let the rubber do its magic. Less is more here! The most difficult part of the slick anti is to find the right angles which takes time as it is different from long pips and somewhat counter intuitive. The more topspin the loop got, the MORE you will have to open your blade. Unfortunately, it will take some time to learn how to play slick anti (say 6 month or so) so you cannot just test it like you would do with just another long pip where you know after a couple of sessions if it is good or if it is not going to work for you.
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