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5 ply vs. 7 ply All-Wood

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doraemon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10/07/2008 at 5:57am
I am quite bewildered here.  I play mostly with 5-ply all-wood and sometimes I play with 7-ply all-wood for fun or testing, but I find one thing:

My loop bites more (has more kick) with 5-ply all-wood !!!  I think my technique is the same but somehow how hard I tried, I could not loop with as much spin as before (using 5-ply).

Is it because of the blade (7-ply has less dwell time and less flexibility)?

Is it possible, let's say Waldner, to generate as much spin with 7-ply as with 5-ply?

Any comments from users of Clipper Wood or Avalox 777 or any other 7-ply All-Wood?

How about the other way around:  Any 7-ply user who experience that his/her loop has more bite, using 5-ply?

Thanks.

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packtim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote packtim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 7:02am
Its not always the case but generally 7 ply is faster.  I think that a lot of the OFF+ all wood blades are 7 ply.  I think as you say its because it has less dwell time and flexibility. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 11:14am
I believe it has more to do with the thickness and speed of the blade than the number of plies. A friend and frequent opponent of mine creates more spin with his 729 whirlwind than his avalox 555 using the same rubbers, with the 7-ply former blade being slower than the 5-ply latter one (and may also have to do with each blade's construction, the details of which I do not know).

A big factor may also be overall stiffness and outer ply wood (and inner ply too). The yasaka balsa for example, although 5-ply and not really thick, is still stiff and hard, and is really difficult to produce big amounts of spin, much less than many 7-ply blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeff(ATTC) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 12:22pm
The reason most 5-ply have more "bite" is because they are generally thinner than 7-plys.  This allows them to flex and sling shot the ball of the blade face.  7-plys are generally thicker and do not flex as much; when the ball hits the blade face it goes right back.

I have two Clipper CR WRBs.  One was a thin 6 mm and the other was 7 mm.  Looping with the 6mm blade had more spin and kick, I can feel the blade flex when I loop; the 7mm has a little more speed but less spin and I cannot feel any flex, the ball goes in then pops back out..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jossix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 12:55pm
I read somewhere that the one ply Hinoki blades although soft are more suited to flat hitting due to lack of spin. Would this be due to the same inflexibility like the 7 plys?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 1:20pm
no carbon?  :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rokphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 2:24pm
I dont find 1 ply hinoki to be lacking in spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 3:08pm
Although the one ply POC i have is pretty heavy at 111gr and probably not representative of the rest out there, I found it great for flat hitting, probably due to the lack of vibration and stability (weight), but also very good and spinny for looping, probably due to the softness of the wood (although I tried it with a 729 SP transcent on the forehand, which could explain a lot). Sounds strange, but that is what I felt. If only it was a bit lighter...! (then of course it would not feel that good!) ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GenomicsKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 3:10pm
Actually 1-ply Hinoki has the best of both worlds: spin and speed and you can emphasize one over another by applying different gears/strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 3:38pm
it's about technique, rubbers and feel. It's not the blades fault.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/07/2008 at 8:31pm
Thanks for all the comments.

Let's get an example based on few blades that I own.  Yasaka Extra is flexible, thus it makes sense for creating more spin.  Korbel is medium in hardness and stiffness, it lacks a bit in spin department compared to Yasaka Extra.  Dicon is medium hard but a bit flexy, it is about as spinny as Korbel.  Now, Persson PowerPlay is about the same thickness as that of Dicon, it is medium soft but stiff (can't feel any flexibility if there are any).

My point is that PowerPlay is about the same thickness with Dicon but it is stiffer (thus create less spin) because:
1.  Dicon's core layer is thicker, PowerPlay is thinner (about half the size of that of Dicon)
2.  Dicon's 2nd layer is very thin, while PowerPlay is much thicker.  I believe this gives the stiffness in the blade.

So construction wise (although you can make a thin 7-ply blade, probably as thin as a 5-ply blade), a 7-ply blade has more probability being stiffer, thus creating less spin.

Back to the topic:
With the stiffer 7-ply (let's say has the same thickness with average 5-ply blade), what can I do to create as much spin as my usual 5-ply?  Should I alter my looping technique?  What I notice is that the extra kick comes from the flexibility of 5-ply blade.  I have a 5-ply blade with very soft surface but quite stiff, it can create good spin but from the less flexibility, it does not "kick" as hard as the more flexible 5-ply.

I am thinking of putting a decent rubbers on my PowerPlay and try again and again until I can have at least similar "bites" in spin, compared to my usual 5-ply.  Do you think it is possible?

On the positive side:
Good thing about 7-ply being stiffer is that it is good in hitting/smashing/blocking aspects.

@Swiffer:  No, I am talking about simple 7-ply all-wood blade, no carbon involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2008 at 12:07am
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:

I am quite bewildered here.  I play mostly with 5-ply all-wood and sometimes I play with 7-ply all-wood for fun or testing, but I find one thing:

My loop bites more (has more kick) with 5-ply all-wood !!!  I think my technique is the same but somehow how hard I tried, I could not loop with as much spin as before (using 5-ply).

Is it because of the blade (7-ply has less dwell time and less flexibility)?

Is it possible, let's say Waldner, to generate as much spin with 7-ply as with 5-ply?

Any comments from users of Clipper Wood or Avalox 777 or any other 7-ply All-Wood?

How about the other way around:  Any 7-ply user who experience that his/her loop has more bite, using 5-ply?

Thanks.
 
 
you think waldner can do things the rest wouldnt be able, but many pros are able to create more dwell  the drawback of 7 ply blades is that you lose touch..players with amazing hard blades get very spinny shots without being stars
 
its easy to say that technique allowss you to create tons of spin, but nobody explains that,
 
even players that are semi pro  play with fast blades
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2008 at 12:09am
[ its odd but with a faster blade like dhs carbon i get more spin than my clipper cr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BKTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2008 at 7:49am
from my experience, it depends on the structure of the blade.

5-ply thin blade (5.4-5.8mm) + a thick core (in proportion to the rest of the layers) offers by far the biggest kick / shape change / second speed, whichever way players describe that power you get from such blades.

thin 7-plys like yasaka offensive / offensive II seems to generate sufficient shape change to match many 5-plys because they are thin + keeping an overall high ratio of vertically shaped veneers (a high proportion is necessary for sufficient shape change). This is because that middle, horizontally laid out middle ply is thin and soft.

thicker 5-plys sacrifice shape change with better 1st speed (rebound speed), making them more suitable for a mix of loop+smash play. the hardness from the surface layer (e.g. YEO) increases rigidity further, reducing ball bite and flex but improving 1st speed.

thicker 7-plys like CL are the most rigid of all. look at them - they have a much higher percentage of horizonally laid out layer. fast, but usually with a flatter trajectory and less flex.

blades with fibre usually reduces flex (esp. fibres that are weaved horizontally and vertically). shape change is reduced to the level of that ply and hence we usually feel less vibration (+ less flex overall). to generate spin from these blades usually require a different looping motion to thin 5-plys.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/08/2008 at 7:57am
waldner can place a rubber in a spoon and still spin the ball LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 729cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 8:09am
Originally posted by BKTT BKTT wrote:


blades with fibre usually reduces flex (esp. fibres that are weaved horizontally and vertically). shape change is reduced to the level of that ply and hence we usually feel less vibration (+ less flex overall). to generate spin from these blades usually require a different looping motion to thin 5-plys.



Is arylate(vecrtan) reducing flex?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 10:53am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

waldner can place a rubber in a spoon and still spin the ball LOL


me too and my little sister too but i would have play china in 2006 unlike waldner
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 8:34pm
@bbkon:

I know that using hard carbon blades such as Primorac Carbon, Schlager Carbon, Sardius, good players still can produce heavy spin.  Some of my friends do.

What I am saying is that, by having more flexibility and softer outer ply, a 5-ply all-wood blade has beneficial properties geared toward producing more spin.  That's why I asked if someone who accustomed to 7-ply can actually produce more spin (of course, sacrificing other aspects of the game) by using a 5-ply, and vice versa (5-ply users can't generate as much spin by using a stiffer 7-ply).

In reference to Waldner, I believe he can use spoon with rubbers to produce spin, but I bet he can't spin as good as with his usual set-up.

Another way of looking at this is as follows:  Given Schumacher who is really fast with a Ferrari, and now must drive a Subaru Impreza (another fast car, but more for a rally race), I bet he still can drive fast, but due to the limitation of Subaru Impreza, he can't drive as fast as he is used to with his Ferrari.

But for now, the problem I'm having is almost solved.  I tried extensively with friends who are willing to help me proving this, and it turns out that I can make as much spin as I can with a 7-ply for fast killer loops, compared to using a 5-ply.  But for slow, high arching loops, I am still struggling.  The way to do it, is that my looping motion has to be modified just a bit, to compensate the loss in flexibility from the stiffer 7-ply.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 8:35pm
By the way, I forgot to thank BKTT for his wonderful comments.  Very informative !!! Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 9:49pm
There isn't much difference, its still wood. The ball doesn't stay on the rubber long enough for the 'spring' to affect it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loop+loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 11:07pm
doraemon, I'm with you on this. I find 5-plies better for looping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/09/2008 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by TT_Freak TT_Freak wrote:

There isn't much difference, its still wood. The ball doesn't stay on the rubber long enough for the 'spring' to affect it. 


I see that you are using Violin that I believe is medium hard (I am not sure about its flexibility).  I suggest you try Yasaka Extra 3D, which is a medium soft blade with great flexibility, due to the 3 cut slots on the neck.  Trust me, in harder swing motion, you can "feel" it flex !!!  And boy, the spin-kick it produces on such shot!!

On the bad side, it is hard to generate a good smash / flat hitting.  This is a looper dream blade, due to the soft and flexible properties that it has.  You can check the review on this blade on DTTW.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2008 at 12:41pm
People also think that the Europeans (includes the German trained Japanese) somehow hit with more spin than the Chinese. It only appears that way because they hit slower and are usually forced to hit 'up' as a result of taking the ball late. Similarly a soft, flexy blade only appears spinnier since the ball it produces is slower. A loopier ball does not always imply a spinnier ball. Spin is always a product of technique and rubber more than anything else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2008 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:

@bbkon:I know that using hard carbon blades such as Primorac Carbon, Schlager Carbon, Sardius, good players still can produce heavy spin.� Some of my friends do.What I am saying is that, by having more flexibility and softer outer ply, a 5-ply all-wood blade has beneficial properties geared toward producing more spin.� That's why I asked if someone who accustomed to 7-ply can actually produce more spin (of course, sacrificing other aspects of the game) by using a 5-ply, and vice versa (5-ply users can't generate as much spin by using a stiffer 7-ply).In reference to Waldner, I believe he can use spoon with rubbers to produce spin, but I bet he can't spin as good as with his usual set-up.Another way of looking at this is as follows:� Given Schumacher who is really fast with a Ferrari, and now must drive a Subaru Impreza (another fast car, but more for a rally race), I bet he still can drive fast, but due to the limitation of Subaru Impreza, he can't drive as fast as he is used to with his Ferrari.But for now, the problem I'm having is almost solved.� I tried extensively with friends who are willing to help me proving this, and it turns out that I can make as much spin as I can with a 7-ply for fast killer loops, compared to using a 5-ply.� But for slow, high arching loops, I am still struggling.� The way to do it, is that my looping motion has to be modified just a bit, to compensate the loss in flexibility from the stiffer 7-ply.


the problem is that not all the 7 ply as that fast or not all the 5 ply like mazunov are flexy, it depends of the material(limba) and the stiffnes and the rubber, sometimes my 7 ply clipper refuses to loop with some rubber and with other rubber will be a sponing machine..

we need a vibration specialist phd enginner to solve or shed some light in this mystery.in another forum there was a chemistry expert that explained some interesting stuff aboout rubbers and "expensive production proceess"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Juniortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2008 at 2:59pm
A big question to do...in "new era" of water glue will be the top offensive players will choose  the racket of 7 ply
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/10/2008 at 10:09pm
If I have to summarize in extreme cases, they will be like as follows (please differentiate between hard vs. soft and flexy vs. stiff):

Feel         Rigidity        Dwell Time     Good for:
Soft         Flexible        Too much       Looping and very spinny shots.  Bad
                                                         for hitting/smashing.
Soft         Stiff              Plenty            Looping and hitting/driving.
Hard        Flexible        Plenty            Looping and hitting/driving.
Hard        Stiff              Much less      Hitting/driving and spinny shots with
                                                         suitable soft sponge rubbers.
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