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Playing a chopper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longpong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2005 at 7:34am
I looked at Ma Lin when he destroyed Joo See Hyuk at the killerspin game.He did a lot of variation in his game,but of course he's got a tremendous forehand drive one of the best, but in some point he just played very short and with heavy fast pushes and Joo hitting the bottom of the net.But to play good against chopper u allways can study the masters over choopers, in my opponion that is, Ma Lin,Kreanga,Waldner,Samsonov,Boll and a few more...they have quite different strategies of handle a chopper, Waldner,Ma Lin and perhaps Kreanga just crusch them into pieces with their heavy strokes and they find angles so deep that even a wall couldn't catch their attacks,while Boll is going for long rallies with great security in his game(on the long run) he plays the chopper from side to side ,long short and when the chance comes he usually take it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spontaneous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2005 at 7:40am
loops short and consistent. loop to the side ur opponent cant counter attack. Looping short forces ur opponent to return top spin, no spin, or very high backspin shots. Whack the next shot for a winner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longpong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2005 at 3:37pm
I find it easier to return short topspins,maybe thats just individual witch one u prefer as a chopper.I think it's much harder return superfast and spinny loops that Ma Lin type of stroke, short and spinny just makes it easier for the chopper to increase the spin even more and still make a low chop near the net, impossible to kill.but as u where saying vari the loops a lot, for ex, a few short loops then a super hard spinny one,that should give a easy ball to kill, if not as u was saying a short loop again and so on..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingPongPang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/15/2005 at 9:45pm
watch the spin of the ball. loop it with patience. attack when there's not too much spin.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gecko the first Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2005 at 12:08pm
service---->hard fast forehadtopspin---->smash---->tschooo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longpong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/21/2005 at 7:07am
that easy *S* its funny when u read all the tactic sites cause they really assume that the ball ALLWAYS!!! will come back at u very very predictible,,but maybe the chopper will put his chop low, short,near the net deep into to the bh side instead???? then what? sh*t then all the teories didn't work out no more *S*,JUST KIDDING... life isn't allways so easy u know..thank's for a really great forum..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote normal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2005 at 8:27am
Against a chopper it's not as difficult as you think.You will need good controll.You play a backspin service (1) he will chop according to his style you chop back full power (3) preferred with your backhand short on the middle he will have to chop back and now you can finish wit either a powerfull forehand loop or a backhand loop (5) what you have achieved in this setup is to gain control of the spin so he cannot vary it.Because you are now familiar with the amount of spin you can now adjust your loop power to it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2005 at 9:39am
Speed, unpredictable spin and sound form is what is needed to dominate a chopper. The chopper must not be allowed to find a groove, the more unpredictable and stronger your attacks the better. You can not simply overpower a chopper in the conventional sense. Preferably you should loop-drive off the bounce as much as possible and to different areas of the table to maximise speed, unpredictability and consistancy to gain a tempo advantage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YATTP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2005 at 7:53pm
It's quite funny that some people find it so easy to play defenders and have simplistic or naive recipes for everything.
In real life you will find that every defender is different.
There are the super monster spin types that put so much spin in the ball that you simply can't loop the ball aggressively - if you can loop it at all (a "simple" push on a super heavy chop is extremely difficult also). If he has a stong attack also you'll definitely run into problems. In contrast to what was said in this thread, a defender can generate by far more backspin with his forehand than with his backhand. This is the reason why many defenders use long pips on their backhand these days.
There are so many tricks the defenders can come up with like heavy variations in spin, heavy side-underspin which will produce an extrem curve to the side just where you are waiting for your next loop and you find yourself totally mispositioned. If the ball hits the table it will bounce extremely to the side and you are screwed hard.
You simply can't afford to play weak balls against defenders of a certain level. They are waiting for these balls - especially the ones with short pips or anti on the back hand. The defensive game is not weaker than the attacking game - it's just a different approach.

General tips:

1.) Learn to smash against backspin. If you can't hit against backspin, you can't win against a good chopper. This is the only way to beat them. This is what you are waiting for - a slightly higher ball that you can kill.

2.) Vary you game as much as possible. Consistent loops with pretty much the same amount of spin is just perfect prey for a defender. Vary you spin. Vary the hight of the loops. Spinny high loops on his backhand sometimes produce high balls because they aren't easy to chop back low - especially with anti. Vary lenght and try to move him around as much as possible (He'll certainly move you around also :-))

3.) You need to learn how to play good stops against heavy backspin. These balls are essential if you play a good defender.

3.) patience and lots of practice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patmandidily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/15/2005 at 8:31pm

YATTP, there's one huge thing you forgot... how to force choppers to make decisions. As a looper, I am usually given a few options on any ball I get from a chopper. I can loop it, push it, or hit it if it's a high ball close to the net. Basically loopers control the play. However, choppers usually have the easy decision of chopping a ball back.

If you're an allaround good looper and want to force errors out of a chopper, a good strategy is to try to give them balls that they could attack. This is because if a chopper is given a difficult decision between attacking and defending, he often will make the wrong choice. For example, if a chopper gives you a low chop to your forehand, give the chopper a very arced loop. The chopper will usually either attack it poorly or chop it poorly, since very arced loops can have huge variation in spin.

By using this strategy, you can generally force errors more easily out of choppers. As long as a looper doesn't let a defender get into a rhythm, the looper will win by far the majority of the time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YATTP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2005 at 8:27am
This is a good point. However, the defender will try to do exactly the same thing.

You can smash ANY ball that is higher than the net - even if it's a long ball. The spin really doesn't matter if you manage to create enough forward momentum, i.e. hit hard enough with an open blade (90 angle) - the stronger the spin the harder you have to hit. It really depends on the level of play and the particular strengths of the defender. Your high loop strategy is good if you don't play these balls too often and if he is not a good hitter and if he is far away from the table. However, you have to remember that the ball will pick up more rotation each time you loop or he chops. Both strokes will increase the rotation. This is one of the reasons why you   shouldn't base you strategy on long topspin rallies because you waste way too much energy compared to him and there will be a point in the rally where the spin will be too much for you to handle - regardless of your skill. Shetinin (a Russian world class defender in the Bundesliga has beaten Timo Boll on many occasions because Boll bases his game too mucho on topspin and his smash is relatively weak compared to his level of play. Shetinin next to never attacks but he creates a deadly amount of backspin. Other players who don't rely too much on topsspins and play a more smash based game have less problems with him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2005 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by hohenadel hohenadel wrote:

I play regularly against a person who is a chopper. Almost nothing but backhand chops and some forehand chops.

If he's one of those choppers who tries to cover as much of the table with his backhand chop, presumably with long pips, then there are some common tactics you can use. First, serve deep to the backhand long pips, then follow with a loop to the wide forehand. Seems simple, but it's effective if the player's forehand chop is weaker. Players often make the mistake of playing this type of player's "middle" when they are really playing right into the player's backhand chop, which is covering a wider range than other choppers. Second, if at all possible, sidespin loop to the forehand. Choppers who favor one side invariable have less control on the other (usually inverted) side, and can't handle this. Waldner was a master at beating choppers with sidespin loops, and I've seen top players do it to Derek May (former U.S. #1 chopper, 2500+).

-Larry Hodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyberswordsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2005 at 6:21pm
"You can not simply overpower a chopper in the conventional sense."

I disagree. The best chopper in North America, Chris Xu and the best player in North America, Wilson Zhang both hit at the same club as me. Wilson completely overpowers Chris the way no one else can in NA...not even Johnny Huang. Chris can return more of Huangs flat kills than she can Wilson's drives. Chris is good for 2 chops against Wilson....3 if shes lucky....and never a fourth.

It's a good thing to witness in person because you hear all this "slow loop" talk all the time when in reality a dominating drive againt heavey backspin is not such an unreasonable goal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/21/2005 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Cyberswordsman Cyberswordsman wrote:

"You can not simply overpower a chopper in the conventional sense."

I disagree. The best chopper in North America, Chris Xu and the best player in North America, Wilson Zhang both hit at the same club as me. Wilson completely overpowers Chris the way no one else can in NA...not even Johnny Huang. Chris can return more of Huangs flat kills than she can Wilson's drives. Chris is good for 2 chops against Wilson....3 if shes lucky....and never a fourth.

It's a good thing to witness in person because you hear all this "slow loop" talk all the time when in reality a dominating drive againt heavey backspin is not such an unreasonable goal.

Sword

The above works because Wilson is a much higher level player than Chris. If Wilson tried that against a chopper his own level, it wouldn't be as effective as if he played more tactically.
-Larry Hodges
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_Freak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2005 at 2:31am
The only player in the world who can truly overpower a chopper is Kong Linghui, and thats because he has perfect form, timing and incredible talent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2005 at 2:56am
When I play a chopper I find that a mixture of flat drives, moderate loops(top of the bounce), heavy loops (on the fall about table height) and once they're away from the table hard flat pushes works best. (This is assuming that you can get the ball back over the net regularly) The best chopper I play against uses a variety of super spinny chops, light chops, pushes and if you give him enough height super fast topspin drives. He uses mostly his backhand (he has inverted on both sides) and has quick enough reflexes to continually retrieve fast attacks. Points usually are 10 shots each +.

Varying spin, speed and placement of the ball is really the only way to win consistantly against a really good chopper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2005 at 2:57am

To me the first thing to learn in playing a chopper, which people often neglects, is how to conserve energy. In particular, one has to learn how to 'borrow' the backspin in those transitionary, non-killer loops. Once you are able to do that, there will be more room to employ whatever tactics you like

Second, you don't vary your game for the sake of variation. There must be a point in doing so. The ultimate objective is to force your opponents to return a short/high ball which you can loopkill, and you work your game around that. Typically, bringing your opponent back and forth works well. Personally I love the following sequence:

Serve long -> loopkill -> push -> loop high and long -> loop short and low -> loopkill

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote larrytt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/22/2005 at 3:05am
Originally posted by TT_Freak TT_Freak wrote:

The only player in the world who can truly overpower a chopper is Kong Linghui, and thats because he has perfect form, timing and incredible talent.

There is one time where a good player can often overpower a chopper - the first shot after the attacker's serve. When I play a chopper, I usually serve and rip the first ball. If the chopper makes a good return of that shot, I tend to switch to a steady rolling game, looking for chances to either loop-kill or smash. It's pretty effective - I've beaten three choppers over 2400 that way, David Mahibir (Canada's top chopper at the time), Insook Bhushan (former top ten in the world, 11-time U.S. women's singles champion) and Virginia Sung (rated 2476 when I beat her at the New Jersey Open in 1994). If I tried to rip over and over against any of these three, I wouldn't have had a chance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyberswordsman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/24/2005 at 11:26am
Originally posted by TT_Freak TT_Freak wrote:

The only player in the world who can truly overpower a chopper is Kong Linghui, and thats because he has perfect form, timing and incredible talent.


methinks you should add timo to that list of one..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote indy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/13/2005 at 6:34pm
larrytt what drills and tips do you used to pratice more to improve better your game against that kind of chopper players.best regards Miguel
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thaidog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2006 at 2:07pm
When he steps back to hit chop rallies hit it short... make sure he does not get in a postion where he can just sit back a 5 feet from the table and just keep returning your loops with chops. Defensive players hate that. Hit it short then long... make him run!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gaute Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/31/2006 at 2:48pm
Variation, both spin and where you are placing the ball, drag up a lot of spin to his backhand, then short, looong way out to his backhand again, loop out to his fore hand! Only use forehands against choppers, you have really good time to move your feet..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alfie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/16/2006 at 12:22am
I played a very good chopper tonight .....anything I sent him long came back to me with a viscious backspin like I have not seen before.....I was down 2-0 before I got a sweat on.......no matter what I tried I could not loop his chops.......some of the balls basically stopped before my racket got there....I saw the ball coming to my Fh and as I was swinging the ball just seemed to stop.....anyway after the second game I said something needs to change in a hurry so I started giving him pure sidespin medium distance almost bouncing twice on his side and he popped a few up to my FH and slam......then I gave him nospin short that he returned with a weak push then I could control my next shot and I would put it to his BH that for some reason he would not chop from........on his serves I attacked everything winnings some and losing some but in the end I lost 4-2 but if I would have carried on the way I was going it would have lost 4-0 in a hurry.......I think the key is finding a weakness and also giving them no spin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2006 at 3:48am
hmm, one of the best players vs. choppers is Waldner, variationj is his game with careful placements. he lost only to a few choppers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gaute Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2006 at 9:05am
yes.. Shclager is playing well against choppers to...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sluskas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2006 at 9:56am
haha waldner lost to chen xinhua :D 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jc48573 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2006 at 3:05pm
my advice...well according to my style.  i would go for a loop kill most of the time and basically not give him any time to respond or not let him continue to do a lot of chops.  The longer the rallies the more they take advantage of my shots.  i just happen to be good at killing their chops and that seems to work for me.  Or u can be the patient one where u simply loop consistently and look for the perfect time to attack.  the problem w/ loop kill is that it wears u out (and a chance that u will hurt urself), but if u were trained to be a power looper then u will be fine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phrixion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/08/2006 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by larrytt larrytt wrote:

Here's an article I wrote on playing choppers. Hope it helps!
http://www.usatt.org/tip_photo/072301.shtml
-Larry Hodges



Wonderful tips, thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sluskas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/13/2006 at 11:48am
service---->hard fast forehadtopspin---->smash---->tschooohaahahaahh and you hit in net douchebag, because you cannot smash a heavy backspin so easy(or can't) ...............d              o            u           c            h            e             b         a                g       z
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phrixion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/17/2006 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by hohenadel hohenadel wrote:

I play regularly against a person who is a chopper. Almost nothing but backhand chops and some forehand chops. I have a very very hard time playing against this person. I can usually pull out a win but it is quite difficult. I see it to be much harder to play against than a regular topspin loop. Can someone give me some information or some tips on how to play against a chopper like this??? Thanks.



Chopper/defensive players try to make you make the first mistake then take advantage of it. If you take that away and don't make the first mistake against a chopper/defensive style player, then there is more likely a chance you will win the point.
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