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Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

Originally posted by satthu satthu wrote:

Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

...I think this rubber will best be enjoyed by beginners and intermediate players , maybe females, but I dont think many advanced male players will like it.Petermoo


Some freaking dumb/sexist comments

How dare you!
You are an idiot if you think that its dumb or sexist to think that a rubber is better suited to females than males or a particular level of player.
Its an empirical fact that the female game is different to the male game and the material requirements are different as is the fact that lower level players have different requirements.
I am prepared to put my table tennis qualifications up against yours anytime so tell me your pedigree as a player and academically and lets have an intellectual discussion on this point.
Otherwise I might think its just a dumb comment.
Petermoo



Chill out bro...each of you just have different points of view...Smile
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Originally posted by satthu satthu wrote:



Some freaking dumb/sexist comments
 
 
Just wondering. Do you have to use a snorkel to breath? Most people who have their head where yours is would suffocate.
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Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

Originally posted by satthu satthu wrote:

Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

...I think this rubber will best be enjoyed by beginners and intermediate players , maybe females, but I dont think many advanced male players will like it.Petermoo


Some freaking dumb/sexist comments

How dare you!
You are an idiot if you think that its dumb or sexist to think that a rubber is better suited to females than males or a particular level of player.
Its an empirical fact that the female game is different to the male game and the material requirements are different as is the fact that lower level players have different requirements.
I am prepared to put my table tennis qualifications up against yours anytime so tell me your pedigree as a player and academically and lets have an intellectual discussion on this point.
Otherwise I might think its just a dumb comment.
Petermoo

 
Hi Peter,
 
First, I don't believe you meant anything sexist about your comments.  However, let me comment on why some might construe it as such.
 
In the early 90's ('92 or '93 I think), I watched the U.S. Team Competition in Detroit (this has been duely replaced by the NA Teams in Baltimore).  One top competitor there was Chen Jing.  She had great credentials with her 1988 Olympic WS Gold and she would be the 1993 Worlds WS Finalist losing only to Hyun Jung Hwa.  Among the players she faced was Wang Tao.  Not surprisingly, she could not handle his loops and would block most of them long or pop them up straight in the air.  What surprised me though was she did this as well when facing some loops from U.S. competition.  Here she is, probably the top 5 woman in the world and she's popping up loops from someone who's not even in the top 400 of the world.  Such was the case back then as you may know.
 
Let's fast forward to today.  The majority of women still have the counter-hitting/blocking game but it's now much refined.  They are able to hang with strong male loopers.  Example, the 2007 NA Teams winner in Baltimore was the ECU (East China U.) Women's Team beating top Canadian loopers such as Wilson Zhang and Peter Paul Praedeeban.  In March, Zhang Yining played in a Killerspin tournament beating both top U.S player Mark Hazinski, Lupulesku and Lucjan Blaszcyk (sp).  There are a few reasons why women are now blocking/countering stronger against loop.  Perhaps with the rise of many good female loopers ex. Tamara Boros, Lin Ling, Toth, Struse, Silbereisen etc., they think that they need to practice against strong male loopers thus making them stronger in competition.  Also, maybe the glue ban has reduced the spin enough that the ball is not so "hot" and they can block it and counter softer loops.  As a matter of fact, when I work on my BH block and countering, I use Zhang Yining as an example (except I suck more Smile) because she's so sharp.  
 
So although I think you didn't mean anything with the "female" comment, you can see why saying something along the lines of "Tenergy 64 sucks so it maybe only good for females" it can ruffle some feathers.  Women have worked hard in the past two decades to adapt against strong loopers i.e. men.  Perhaps it would be better to say "Tenergy 64 sucks for the all out looping game but could be better for counter-driving/hitting, such as preferred by the top females."  I do understand you're a player and not a politician (you're not are you?).
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Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

Originally posted by satthu satthu wrote:

Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

...I think this rubber will best be enjoyed by beginners and intermediate players , maybe females, but I dont think many advanced male players will like it.Petermoo


Some freaking dumb/sexist comments

How dare you!
You are an idiot if you think that its dumb or sexist to think that a rubber is better suited to females than males or a particular level of player.
Its an empirical fact that the female game is different to the male game and the material requirements are different as is the fact that lower level players have different requirements.
I am prepared to put my table tennis qualifications up against yours anytime so tell me your pedigree as a player and academically and lets have an intellectual discussion on this point.
Otherwise I might think its just a dumb comment.
Petermoo

 
Hi Peter,
 
First, I don't believe you meant anything sexist about your comments.  However, let me comment on why some might construe it as such.
 
In the early 90's ('92 or '93 I think), I watched the U.S. Team Competition in Detroit (this has been duely replaced by the NA Teams in Baltimore).  One top competitor there was Chen Jing.  She had great credentials with her 1988 Olympic WS Gold and she would be the 1993 Worlds WS Finalist losing only to Hyun Jung Hwa.  Among the players she faced was Wang Tao.  Not surprisingly, she could not handle his loops and would block most of them long or pop them up straight in the air.  What surprised me though was she did this as well when facing some loops from U.S. competition.  Here she is, probably the top 5 woman in the world and she's popping up loops from someone who's not even in the top 400 of the world.  Such was the case back then as you may know.
 
Let's fast forward to today.  The majority of women still have the counter-hitting/blocking game but it's now much refined.  They are able to hang with strong male loopers.  Example, the 2007 NA Teams winner in Baltimore was the ECU (East China U.) Women's Team beating top Canadian loopers such as Wilson Zhang and Peter Paul Praedeeban.  In March, Zhang Yining played in a Killerspin tournament beating both top U.S player Mark Hazinski, Lupulesku and Lucjan Blaszcyk (sp).  There are a few reasons why women are now blocking/countering stronger against loop.  Perhaps with the rise of many good female loopers ex. Tamara Boros, Lin Ling, Toth, Struse, Silbereisen etc., they think that they need to practice against strong male loopers thus making them stronger in competition.  Also, maybe the glue ban has reduced the spin enough that the ball is not so "hot" and they can block it and counter softer loops.  As a matter of fact, when I work on my BH block and countering, I use Zhang Yining as an example (except I suck more Smile) because she's so sharp.  
 
So although I think you didn't mean anything with the "female" comment, you can see why saying something along the lines of "Tenergy 64 sucks so it maybe only good for females" it can ruffle some feathers.  Women have worked hard in the past two decades to adapt against strong loopers i.e. men.  Perhaps it would be better to say "Tenergy 64 sucks for the all out looping game but could be better for counter-driving/hitting, such as preferred by the top females."  I do understand you're a player and not a politician (you're not are you?).
Hey BeaverMd
When i review a rubber, I always try to be as sincere and truthful as possible. I actually get sent a few rubbers from time to time and I put up my findings as a way of sharing the information with people who I consider to be my peers.
Its not likely we will all agreee on any one thing at any time thats too much to ask.
I actually welcome differing points of view to my own as I have realised that even the most highly educated minds can come to opposite conclusions when faced with the same facts.
I find that in the USA especially people are somewhat overburdened by the need to be politically correct all the time. Thats fine but sometimes it prevents people from saying what they honestlt feel.
I remember a couple of years back while training with my national team, the chinese coach took a hit with my bat. Hammond , F2 on Gergeleyand said to me.
"Too easy! too easy! like womans bat!"
They insisted that I try to switch to standard chinese issue H3, Sriver and I tried it out.
For a few weeks I trained with this setup doing multiball and other drills with the team.
It nearly killed me.
I remember one time a television crew came in and filmed me collapsing on the floor from the intense training!
And then I decided to switch back to my womens bat!
I watched with great interest the match with Mark Hazinsky and Zhang Yining a few months back but my memories  of the match are not the same as yours.
I noticed that when Haz powered up his drives Zhang would block off the few good shots Haz made but Zhang just seemed so good at keeping him off balance that she never really had to put out any effort to beat him.
She just seemed so unperturbed and relaxed that the outcome was never in doubt.
My point is not that the womans game is lower,its just different.
Higher/lower depends on the players level not the gender.
 
Petermoo
 
 
 
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Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

Hey BeaverMd
When i review a rubber, I always try to be as sincere and truthful as possible. I actually get sent a few rubbers from time to time and I put up my findings as a way of sharing the information with people who I consider to be my peers.
Its not likely we will all agreee on any one thing at any time thats too much to ask.
I actually welcome differing points of view to my own as I have realised that even the most highly educated minds can come to opposite conclusions when faced with the same facts.
I find that in the USA especially people are somewhat overburdened by the need to be politically correct all the time. Thats fine but sometimes it prevents people from saying what they honestlt feel.
I remember a couple of years back while training with my national team, the chinese coach took a hit with my bat. Hammond , F2 on Gergeleyand said to me.
"Too easy! too easy! like womans bat!"
They insisted that I try to switch to standard chinese issue H3, Sriver and I tried it out.
For a few weeks I trained with this setup doing multiball and other drills with the team.
It nearly killed me.
I remember one time a television crew came in and filmed me collapsing on the floor from the intense training!
And then I decided to switch back to my womens bat!
I watched with great interest the match with Mark Hazinsky and Zhang Yining a few months back but my memories  of the match are not the same as yours.
I noticed that when Haz powered up his drives Zhang would block off the few good shots Haz made but Zhang just seemed so good at keeping him off balance that she never really had to put out any effort to beat him.
She just seemed so unperturbed and relaxed that the outcome was never in doubt.
My point is not that the womans game is lower,its just different.
Higher/lower depends on the players level not the gender.
 
Petermoo
 
 
 
 
Peter, you know your reviews are always welcome and well-respected in this forum.  And if top players like you (and Brian Pace) consider all the clowns in here (including me) your peers, well that's just freakin' awesome.
 
Yes, political correctness can often get out of hand here in the U.S.  It was quite ridiculous maybe a decade ago but things have improved.  I think as long as people are respectful in voicing their opinions, there hasn't been any major problems.
 
That's quite a funny and interesting story about your Chinese coach.  Since I don't use H3, I guess he would call my racket a "women's bat" as well.  Fine by me Smile
 
Regarding Haz vs. Zhang YN, I actually didn't share my thoughts but here they are after watching the match again on youtube.  I think the first game really affected Mark when he lost after being ahead 10-6 or something like that.  This game actually reminded me of when a top woman in the world vs. a top player in the U.S. (usually in the hundreds in world ranking) faced each other.  Lots of loops blocked long or popping straight up the ceiling.  So, it still happens even though women block much better now.  Despite getting powered through in some points, Zhang did a good job and maintained composure in winning the game.
 
2nd game - Mark appeared more focused at the start to make up for the first game mental lapse.  But in his desire to power through Zhang, he misses lots of backhand loops (one of his best shots) by misreading lots of her pushes.  Zhang wins quickly.
 
3rd game - Mark actually got off to a good start 4-0 but Zhang responds with 5 points in a row.  They were tied at 8-8 but Mark was a bit careless with a couple of serve returns and Zhang closed it out.
 
Overall, I think Zhang took advantage with better short game (pushes, serves and serve returns) and Mark wasn't able to just power through her.  Mark did well except for the second game despite losing 3-0.  But you're right, he had good enough power to penetrate her defense.  She just had better control and placement.
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Originally posted by petermoo petermoo wrote:

And then, I tore it off.
Sorry to dissapoint, but to me this Tenergy 64 is a bunch of steaming crap. Butterfly you can go ahead and enjoy my $100, congratulations on a brilliant marketing strategy and best wishes to the poor EJ's who will continue to line up for and try all the Tenergys yet to come from T29, T88 and the best Tenergy of all T77.
I think this rubber will best be enjoyed by beginners and intermediate players , maybe females, but I dont think many advanced male players will like it.
Petermoo
Recently you said that you would choose Tenergy 64 before Hexer and Hexer over baracuda, for the reasons of speed. 
 
Quite a bit of this expert review seemed focussed on the cost of the rubber.  Now that the rubber has become available much cheaper and almost the same price as the top of the range Andro or European rubbers, do you still think it's that bad?
 
 
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haha... good find boz. are you a lawyer by any chance...

but this proves our perceptions change at any level, as we get to explore a rubber and discover its strengths and weaknesses and adapt to that.
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I am honestly curious Debraj.  I think Peter Moo is an excellent player just from the results.  Proof is in the pudding.  I am not trying to start anything here.  I want answers to questions about equipment.

This review really suprised me and I thought it was the most interesting review of tenergy 64 we ever got because it came directly to us at our forum from someone who is the best player in their country.
 
I want final answers about what professionals think.  I am currently sifting through the truth in Jun Mizutani's graphs which have just come out saying the complete opposite.  His graphs however come via butterfly and I don't trust any company or sponsored player.
 
In particular I would like to know about
 
Blocking with tenergy 64
 
Peter moo said it was terrible.  Jun Mizutani said it was the best tenergy.
 
I totally agree with Peter about driving the ball and just wanting that kind of forward trajectory with speed.  But I really think both t64 and  hexer are not made for that at the table. 
 
He also said the spin on serves was great.  Mizutani believes t64 is the worst of the tenergy for serves. 
 
Anyway I am interested in assisting trying to get some more accurate answers about what pros feel about tenergy 64 - Peter Moo is the closest pro that we mortals have a little access to ask questions.
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Aye, my experience with T64 was rather a mixed bag. I must admit that I'm not as good as everyone here but a shot or two made with T64 got approval from guys at the club, up to a point where they never give me a mid distance return. It's out of the world shot once a while like petermoo said but non linearity is there. The ball dipped after landing on the table.

Can we count how many point scoring return of Ma Long's BH to justify this rubber as the best driver?
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hold on what does non linear mean?
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Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

hold on what does non linear mean?


Unstable output. Same stroke but different behavior of the ball in term of speed and spin.
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Peter Moo,
 
do you think tenergy topsheet red has more spin than black?  Because of the composition of the rubber - I mean the ingredients in the rubber or because red is softer or what?
 
Does this apply to all the tenergy and what is your prediction for colour related to the butterfly spin art coming out very soon, since it is meant to be tacky
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I think it is pretty obvioius since this thread first appeared that T05 and T64 are popular for players at a really wide range of levels.  And not just women and intermediate players.
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Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

Peter Moo,
 
do you think tenergy topsheet red has more spin than black?  Because of the composition of the rubber - I mean the ingredients in the rubber or because red is softer or what?
 
Does this apply to all the tenergy and what is your prediction for colour related to the butterfly spin art coming out very soon, since it is meant to be tacky
 
a friend tried the TO5 nat version and is really diferent
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I have T64 red and black on Oscar and can't feel any difference.
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peter moo needs to have another blade.

i show several good players using gergely that they can improve with another blade. Maybe at his local level he does not need more control but he will need it getting the road further.

gergely is a good blade to train as a second blade.
 
i know gergely is a lot of fun and in some local level can even use long serves to third ball attack but this just works to a playing level.
 
gergely is a difficult blade to test rubbers.
 
good player does not mean good equipment advisor. 
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I have t64 on HK655 and it is one mean machine probably the best rubber suited to this blade since Bryce speed FX.
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Hello Bob,
Let me define what I mean when I refer to linearity.
If you graph bat speed versus resultant ball speed for a linear setup you would show them to be in direct proportion i.e (a straight line) a slow shot produces a slow ball, a swing twice as fast produces a ball exactly twice as fast etc.
Non linearity occurs when the resultant ball speed is non intuitive and does not exactly match the effort put into making the stroke.
This is not the same as unstable or unpredictable because over time and with practice with a particular setup, a player gets used to its peculiarites and may even extract advantages from using it.
 
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Originally posted by ejmaster ejmaster wrote:

peter moo needs to have another blade.

i show several good players using gergely that they can improve with another blade. Maybe at his local level he does not need more control but he will need it getting the road further.

gergely is a good blade to train as a second blade.
 
i know gergely is a lot of fun and in some local level can even use long serves to third ball attack but this just works to a playing level.
 
gergely is a difficult blade to test rubbers.
 
good player does not mean good equipment advisor. 
What blade would you recommend?
I have found many other players at many international championships I have played in  using the same blade as myself .
I held Schlagers blade a few years ago and it felt quite similar to mine!
I dont feel that the Gergely blade is particularly difficult for anything and as a matter of fact I have acquired a few trophies in my time (not just local ones) to attest to that.
If a good player is not a good equipment advisor do you think a mediocre player will make a good advisor?
 
Petermoo
 
 
 
 
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Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

Peter Moo,
 
do you think tenergy topsheet red has more spin than black?  Because of the composition of the rubber - I mean the ingredients in the rubber or because red is softer or what?
 
Does this apply to all the tenergy and what is your prediction for colour related to the butterfly spin art coming out very soon, since it is meant to be tacky
 
a friend tried the TO5 nat version and is really diferent
This is just my opinion.
I have been playing with Butterfly equipment for many years.
For most Butterfly rubbers the red is the more dynamic and mechanically grippier. You would have observed over the years most Butterfly contarct players (Klampar, Jonyer. Douglas, Grubba, Boll, Kreanga) would have used the red on thier forehand.
The problem with the Tenergies is that they are so grippy that the red has an enormously exagerated high throw. Players have disovered that the black, being slighly less grippy has a slighly more manageable lower throw and therefore Timo and many others are using the black tenergy on thier forehand.
Disclaimers: I said most Butterfly rubbers not all, there are exceptions.
 
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Originally posted by bozbrisvegas bozbrisvegas wrote:

I am honestly curious Debraj.  I think Peter Moo is an excellent player just from the results.  Proof is in the pudding.  I am not trying to start anything here.  I want answers to questions about equipment.

This review really suprised me and I thought it was the most interesting review of tenergy 64 we ever got because it came directly to us at our forum from someone who is the best player in their country.
 
I want final answers about what professionals think.  I am currently sifting through the truth in Jun Mizutani's graphs which have just come out saying the complete opposite.  His graphs however come via butterfly and I don't trust any company or sponsored player.
 
In particular I would like to know about
 
Blocking with tenergy 64
 
Peter moo said it was terrible.  Jun Mizutani said it was the best tenergy.
 
I totally agree with Peter about driving the ball and just wanting that kind of forward trajectory with speed.  But I really think both t64 and  hexer are not made for that at the table. 
 
He also said the spin on serves was great.  Mizutani believes t64 is the worst of the tenergy for serves. 
 
Anyway I am interested in assisting trying to get some more accurate answers about what pros feel about tenergy 64 - Peter Moo is the closest pro that we mortals have a little access to ask questions.
Hello Bob,
I just finished testing T25 and will share my opinion on that soon.
I just want to clear up a few points you raise here.
All the tenergies serve well because of the highly grippy surface. The topsheet is the same material throughout, just the pimple construcions are different. T25 has the best bite , T05 and 64 are almost identical and are therefore also great serving rubbers.
I think the dificulty I have with blocking with the rubber is due to its non-linear response to incoming speed and spin. I think that its just a characteristic of the spring sponge and yes, I agree that with practice these problems can be overcome, But then, why should you have to?
My brain, after so many years of training works in a certain way, Particularly my reflex actions.
I angle my bat a certain amount for a ball coming in at medium speed and everythings fine. My opponent sends in a slighly faster loop and 'whoa!' the ball flies off because it went into the sponge a little bit deeper than my conditioned response tells me to adjust for.
Petermoo
 
 
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ejmaster View Drop Down
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there are a lot of good players playing with whatever they like from he zhi wen playing with a piece of wood blade to machado somedays with moonbeam then primorac carbon and etc.

But it does not mean those blades were the best to play with.

And for sure gergely is not a good blade to test Tenergy64.
 
conclusions about testing tenergy64 with gergely are just to gergely. I believe chris saying tenergy64 plays awsome in hk655 because it is a softer tenergy matching well with the hard feeling of hk. And the blade changes absolutely the feeling of the rubber.
 
gergely is carbon with a mid feeling between hard and midsoft being stiff not very clear to match. i played gergely and i have seen players with sriver, markv, mark v gps, etc. probably better with tenergy05.
 
peter is playing with gergely but no one in the top 20 is playing with gergely. so following the logic of being succesful players right one should quit gergely. of course not.
 
i am not telling you to quit gergely. I am telling to have another blade.
 
there is no need to be wang liquin to see how much points players in the highest level miss because lack of precision.
 
up to 2,300-2,400 around gergely and schlager carbon are good. In the top 50 there will be some trouble. try to keep a short game with gergely in that level.
 
i know schlager plays sc but this is not the easiest path to go.
 
trying a lot of stuff around a blade usually means feeling something that can be improved. sometimes that something is the blade.
 
 
    
EJ Club.

MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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ejmaster   QUOTE
 
 
 
And for sure gergely is not a good blade to test Tenergy64.
 
conclusions about testing tenergy64 with gergely are just to gergely. I believe chris saying tenergy64 plays awsome in hk655 because it is a softer tenergy matching well with the hard feeling of hk. And the blade changes absolutely the feeling of the rubber.
 
gergely is carbon with a mid feeling between hard and midsoft being stiff not very clear to match. i played gergely and i have seen players with sriver, markv, mark v gps, etc. probably better with tenergy05.
 
peter is playing with gergely but no one in the top 20 is playing with gergely. so following the logic of being right succesful players you should quit gergely. of course not.
 
i am not telling you to quit your gergely. I am telling you to have another blade.
 
there is no need to be wang liquin to see how much points players in the highest level miss because lack of precision.
 
up to 2,300-2,400 around gergely and schlager carbon are good. In the top 50 there will be some trouble. try to keep a short game with gergely in that level.
 
i know schlager plays sc but this is not the easiest path to go.
 
trying a lot of stuff around a blade usually means feeling something that can be improved. sometimes that something is the blade.
 
 
 
+!
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Points: 2609 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/27/2010 at 7:36pm

well chris, i am a mediocre player but really an expert in equipment.

peter moo is better player than me but he is not as expert as i am in equipment.

and the thread was the experts review. so that is why i get in. lol.
 
About the blade, I recommend EJm off.
 
 
EJ Club.

MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Strange enough ej I was going to send you a pm asking you to respond to this thread (expert)
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Originally posted by ejmaster ejmaster wrote:

well chris, i am a mediocre player but really an expert in equipment.

peter moo is better player than me but he is not as expert as i am in equipment.

and the thread was the expert review. so that is why i get in. lol.
Ejmaster you kill me LOL!
Petermoo
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Moo am I Bob?
 
Please Change to Boz next quote thanks if you are referring to me or else I will call you
Pee or something like that.
 
joking
 
Peter would you please answer 1 question, which rubber did you win your last few tournaments with?
Grubba Variant ALL
fh: Hurricane 38 degrees MAX
bh: tensor MAX
Watch me playing TT
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Tenergy 64 does everything well loops well chops well drives well blocks well ....need i go any further

It excells at all the above as well Ha.. HA !!!
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Can any one here tell me about the FX version of Tenergy ? has it been released and if so would you share your findings please.
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going further with the thread,

to handle tenergy it is key the technique.

most people have more trouble with tenergy in fh than in bh. this is because the blade angle.

with tenergy have to hit more perpendicular to the ball so the blade angle must be more open, and let the rubber do the job.

One can realize with the bh the wrist can be opened 90 degrees but with the fh more or less 45�.

to open the blade angle with the fh we can open the hand wrist or just open the blade angle in the hand the same timo boll does keeping the wrist straight forwarding.

have to adapt the stroke technique to use Tenergy. otherwise there is trouble.

 
EJ Club.

MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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