Done with Water Based Glue?

stiltt wrote: jt99sf wrote: wturber wrote: cole_ely wrote: I never switched. If using latex glue, I agree tearmender is better on average. Probably fresher For most sponge rubbers Wanda and I just use Bestine rubber cement - thinned a bit. +100 for RC same here, for the blade only, tearmender for the sponge. "bestine" is the thinner tho; "best test" is the the paper cement.

I have glued 100s of blades and rubbers with Revo #3 normal viscosity glue and have never looked back. 2-3 layers with new rubbers, one if re-attaching a pre-cut rubber. Fantastically easy to remove. I don't like the medium viscosity version as it is too thick though, drying too slowly. 

cole_ely wrote: I never switched. If using latex glue, I agree tearmender is better on average. Probably fresher

+1

plazm wrote: wturber wrote: Once I found Tear Mender, I stopped trying other water based glues. So I can't really comment on the breadth of available glues other than to say I won't spend a lot of money on glue unless I have no choice. I developed good methods using Tear Mender and don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, for gluing OX rubber, I prefer it since it doesn't curl the thin rubber sheets at all. Can you explain more on the method using Tear Mender?

wturber wrote: Once I found Tear Mender, I stopped trying other water based glues. So I can't really comment on the breadth of available glues other than to say I won't spend a lot of money on glue unless I have no choice. I developed good methods using Tear Mender and don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, for gluing OX rubber, I prefer it since it doesn't curl the thin rubber sheets at all.

That's a clip from over an year ago...?  By the way, looks like regular Stiga Attach Glue to me.

I developed good methods using Tear Mender and don't have a problem with it at all. In fact, for gluing OX rubber, I prefer it since it doesn't curl the thin rubber sheets at all.

OK. Mine was BTY Fit Chack. My Petr Korbel was heavily sealed (3 times sealing and sanding). Peeling off the rubbers (T64) was an easy task but it seems that some varnish stuck to the rubber's sponge.

Now peeling off the glue was a bit of pain because it won't roll liked any glue. It just stick to your finger. I will not recommend BTY Fit Chack for those who has no patient in removing it from sponge or blade. Too, for unsealed blade, stay away from this glue. IMO.

wturber wrote: silverhair wrote: Here's the bottom line and my last post on this thread.... Water harms wood.  It doesn't matter if the wood is on a dining room table, floor joists in a home, the wood playing surface in a gymnasium or a table tennis paddle.  Water-based glues contain guess what...  Water.  So the use of water-based glue on a wooden table tennis paddle is bad for the wood. Now you can ignore the facts and keep using water-based glues (and renew your membership to the flat-earth society), or you can face the facts that using the glue screws up your paddle and you can budget the extra money to get new blades more often. Well, the fact that you keep ignoring is that the quantity of damage matters a lot. If I take black 800 grit sandpaper and wipe it across the surface of my blade, the indisputable FACT is that I will damage the wood. This will be evidenced by the wood particles in the sandpaper.  Now did it ruin the blade?  No.  How many strokes with the sandpaper before the blade is ruined? Technically, every time I step on the step of my aluminum ladder, I damage it (aluminum does not have a fatigue limit). But this damage does not ruin the ladder.  Degree matters. I don't have a problem with your continual assertion that any exposure to water damages wood.  Maybe that is correct.  And if so, then 99.99999% of the wood out there is constantly being damaged because it is constantly being exposed to water in some manner.  What I have a problem with is your extrapolation that this damage ruins the blade.  My experience is that it does not.  Now I don't change a rubber on my blade much more frequently than every couple months in normal use.  Though I have a few blades where I've changed the rubber much more frequently because I was trying different rubbers.  I've yet to ruin a blade from water damage.  I've yet to see one even that is even noticeably compromised in some way. It is you who are ignoring facts.  You keep talking about blades being ruined by water, and haven't shown us or pointed us to even one blade so damaged.  The flat earth society is for those people who take ideas on faith and without proof.  It seems to me like you are the one that has been keeping his membership in that club current.

Well said.

silverhair wrote: Here's the bottom line and my last post on this thread.... Water harms wood.  It doesn't matter if the wood is on a dining room table, floor joists in a home, the wood playing surface in a gymnasium or a table tennis paddle.  Water-based glues contain guess what...  Water.  So the use of water-based glue on a wooden table tennis paddle is bad for the wood. Now you can ignore the facts and keep using water-based glues (and renew your membership to the flat-earth society), or you can face the facts that using the glue screws up your paddle and you can budget the extra money to get new blades more often.

Well, the fact that you keep ignoring is that the quantity of damage matters a lot. If I take black 800 grit sandpaper and wipe it across the surface of my blade, the indisputable FACT is that I will damage the wood. This will be evidenced by the wood particles in the sandpaper.  Now did it ruin the blade?  No.  How many strokes with the sandpaper before the blade is ruined?

Technically, every time I step on the step of my aluminum ladder, I damage it (aluminum does not have a fatigue limit). But this damage does not ruin the ladder.  Degree matters.

I don't have a problem with your continual assertion that any exposure to water damages wood.  Maybe that is correct.  And if so, then 99.99999% of the wood out there is constantly being damaged because it is constantly being exposed to water in some manner.  What I have a problem with is your extrapolation that this damage ruins the blade.  My experience is that it does not. 

Now I don't change a rubber on my blade much more frequently than every couple months in normal use.  Though I have a few blades where I've changed the rubber much more frequently because I was trying different rubbers.  I've yet to ruin a blade from water damage.  I've yet to see one even that is even noticeably compromised in some way.

It is you who are ignoring facts.  You keep talking about blades being ruined by water, and haven't shown us or pointed us to even one blade so damaged.  The flat earth society is for those people who take ideas on faith and without proof.  It seems to me like you are the one that has been keeping his membership in that club current.

kelvinyoong wrote: Here is the list of glues and sealers i have used: 1. DHS 15 Water Based Glue. Works well but if you have to apply it fast on the blade or it will get lumpy fast. No issues applying to the sponge. Easy to remove from the blade. Tough to remove from the sponge unless you apply 2 more thick layers and peel it off. 2. Butterfly Free Chack. Is much thinner then the DHS glue so spreading on the sponge and blade is easier. Less chance to have lumps on the blade. Easy to remove from the blade. Hell to remove from the rubber. This is what i call the 'stick them once and use rubber until it wears out' glue. 3. Xiom I-Bond. Easy to apply on blade and sponge. But like the Free Chack, easy to remove from the blade but hell to remove from the sponge. Some one even mentioned before to use water and rub it on the sponge. I tried it and it doesn't work. If you need to reapply the rubber back to the sponge, just put another layer on the blade and sponge. 4. Haifu Blue Whale II Speed Glue. Works like any other VOC glue if you don't speed glue. 1 coat on the blade and 2-3 coats on the rubber. Let it dry and flatten out before sticking together. I use this most of the time now. The thing about water based glues is that you need to wait until it dries completely on the blade and sponge before you stick them. If dried and done correctly, once you remove the rubber, all the glue will be on the sponge. If not you will get some pieces of glue on the blade and some on the rubber. For sealing, i have only used Xiom I-Sure. Works well for me. 2 applications is all that is needed and some sand papering to smooth it out.

Here is the list of glues and sealers i have used:

1. DHS 15 Water Based Glue. Works well but if you have to apply it fast on the blade or it will get lumpy fast. No issues applying to the sponge. Easy to remove from the blade. Tough to remove from the sponge unless you apply 2 more thick layers and peel it off.

2. Butterfly Free Chack. Is much thinner then the DHS glue so spreading on the sponge and blade is easier. Less chance to have lumps on the blade. Easy to remove from the blade. Hell to remove from the rubber. This is what i call the 'stick them once and use rubber until it wears out' glue.

3. Xiom I-Bond. Easy to apply on blade and sponge. But like the Free Chack, easy to remove from the blade but hell to remove from the sponge. Some one even mentioned before to use water and rub it on the sponge. I tried it and it doesn't work. If you need to reapply the rubber back to the sponge, just put another layer on the blade and sponge.

4. Haifu Blue Whale II Speed Glue. Works like any other VOC glue if you don't speed glue. 1 coat on the blade and 2-3 coats on the rubber. Let it dry and flatten out before sticking together. I use this most of the time now.

The thing about water based glues is that you need to wait until it dries completely on the blade and sponge before you stick them. If dried and done correctly, once you remove the rubber, all the glue will be on the sponge. If not you will get some pieces of glue on the blade and some on the rubber.

For sealing, i have only used Xiom I-Sure. Works well for me. 2 applications is all that is needed and some sand papering to smooth it out.

Nice post Rob, I think we share the same sentiment here.
That Andro sealer you sold me (I did buy it from you right??? ) always worked well, I found two coats was the perfect amount. (Of course I tried to avoid the bubbling, but it never materialized into a problem even when I accidentally put too much sealer on and it got "bubbly") Good stuff. I think I like the Andro sealer with Nittaku Finezip (haha the only ones I've tried)

OK, I can;t help but dive in here, I guess I will add something regarding wood and water, especially seeing how wood needs water in the first place to grow:

http://www.globalwood.org/tech/tech_moisture.htm
*While this is for the lumber industry, I can't see why it wouldn't hold true for veneer, especially when you consider the space age glues we have these days...


Seems like there could be a way to determine if the water content inside wood is damaging the blade. Perhaps if one of us took the time to measure the weight of two identical brand blade, with identical weights (within reason of course). Then measured the weights after immediately applying both VOC and water glues, then again after waiting until glues have dried, then again after several weeks in a controlled environment. Then using some math, we could determine if using water glue poses any significant possibility of damaging the wood. The content of water would have to be high enough according to the cited web link.

I am sure someone out there has the means and the knowledge of the scientific method and controlled experiments to make this a reality. Anyway, according to the above link, wood has the ability to take on and release water in a natural measured way, and only when TOO much water (28% MC -- whatever that means) is absorbed can decay start.
Apparently, even "dry" wood has some moisture content and that kinda means that while it is common knowledge that wood should be kept dry, that a bit of moisture might not necessarily mean the end of the world for a table tennis paddle.

Without any timely or cost prohibitive experiments, I personally think that a bit of water based glue that is sufficiently allowed to dry before adhering rubber to the blade poses hardly any negative or adverse effects on a blade. I never experienced any mold, or rotting of wood. In fact, the only time I had a major issue with a beloved blade was from old dried out  VOC based rubber glue that stayed on a blade too long and when removed took had discolored and weakened the top ply and took splinters out. I think you can damage a blade with either if proper care isn't taken. I am not taking 'sides" cause I use both, it just that I think that humans can screw up just about anything, given enough time and resources.

Edit: I don't doubt icontek's issues and don't mean to make light of his problems with his blades, but I have noticed that tearmender users (only from videos I have seen) tend to put the glue on somewhat wet, while other solutions (andro and especially nittaku in my direct experience) need to sufficiently dry before affixing to blade. If this is true, then trapped moisture could seep into blade face... and THAT could be a problem. I think it is more of an application issue with this particular product -- this coming from my limited exposure to the TM camp. Again this is my opinion and not an attempt to say anyone is doing something 'wrong"

Lastly, I tend to agree with the OP regarding all but the first of his reasons (regarding damage-- but I could be wrong obviously) for switching to VOC and I can;t help but wonder if using VOC glue is such  a bad thing? I mean if not abused, it just works so great. Technically, is it illegal to use any type of VOC glues to attach the rubber to the blade?

Not going into the whole water damage thing or reverse anyone's giving up water based glue.

I have used Andro Free with Andro Free Sealer
I would say that the bond was not terrific, no doubt less strong than finezip (below) but never had any serious de-lam during a match or anything. Put it on a friend's blade and glued it up, no problem-- he used it for a year with no problems and when I re-glued his next sheet for him-- no problem peeling or re-gluing. I used up an entire set of sealer and glue and never had an incident.

I have used Nittaku Finezip:
I hated this product at first. I rushed and did not let the glue dry enough the first time and it was a true nightmare...had to clean up glue from rubber and it sucked so bad.
then i learned to let it DRY all the way, til it was completely clear. Some days this took almost 30 minutes due to humidity. After this revelation, no problems. As far as reglueing, forget it. Not the best for changing rubbers all the time or re-gluing. I have had some slight splintering on an unsealed blade and I should mention that it would have been better with a light seal job.

You can still buy old VOC glue in limited quantities or you can use rubber cement and as long as you are just affixing it to the blade and not trying to put like 15 layers thick layers on, it should be OK once the VOCs dissipate.

I use both and they are both good. If you are changing a lot, then use rubber cement or old school VOC glues.  If you just want to affix to blade and then let the rubber wear out, then it is a toss up. You will probably want to seal blade with something if you use water glue. Andro stuff was good, finezip adheres better with more rubber-like properties. Once completely dry, the finezip peels off the rubber once you get a good technique down.
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I just ran out of glue and I am probably going to source some VOC glue if possible. Cole uses best test I think and says it is good. Elmers is kind of thick, but works. PP still stocks some VOC stuff I think. Next year, I will most likely buy some finezip or try other water glue for tournament.

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Maybe we could share which glues are worth using if you feel you must use water based glues.

I would vote for Nittaku Finezip on a lightly (two super thin coats VOC poly sealer) sealed blade