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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravefest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 4:52am
Originally posted by gjairmy gjairmy wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.

I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.


Despite their lack of fundamentals, there is no need to insult anyone. There is a chinese saying that goes something along the lines of...if you lose to someone because of lack of skills, then don't complain". And get this...there are no shortcuts in life.

If you, or me, or anyone loses consistently to a particular style..then it just means that we are slow at adapting, and quick adaptation/adjustment is an essential skill in table tennis...if u don't have that skill and they beat you fair and square then don't whine about it. Learn their style and overcome it...if u can't then u know that you are limited in skills (and this alone should motivate u to improve your table tennis basics)


Well, if you didn't understand my point, let me rephrase:

I've tested out long pips.  They are easy to use.  I win against players who are much much much better than I am when I use long pips.  I don't deserve those wins because they don't take any skill/practice.

If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.

And by the way, it would seem with the ban of frictionless long pips by the ITTF, the governing body of table tennis would seem to agree with me to a limited extent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 5:19am
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I've tested out long pips.  They are easy to use.  I win against players who are much much much better than I am when I use long pips.



that is highly debatable. How high in rating are the players? because playing long pips at a high level is extremely difficult, given the top players knowing how to play against them.

bogeyhunter can vouch for that.

to say they are easy to use is ignorant because of the disillusional wins you seem to easily attain.  its a lot harder to train for long pips due to its predictability and players taking advantage of it.

have you seen the video chen longcan vs boggan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jyfC6EaBfA

Just because the style of play doesnt display exuberant footwork of a ryu seung min or a ma long doesnt mean its cheap or lacks the fundamentals.

if a number of long pip users choose to play pips for short term gain, its your job to beat them silly and tell them so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 6:45am
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.

I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.


All I can say is that you have never tried to play that style yourself, it is not as easy as it looks, and maybe you have never played against an effective player with that style either.  I play a completely different style myself but I have a lot of respect for people who are effective blockers with LP and they scare the hell out of me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 9:21am
The hard bat players of the early 1960's said the same things about Reverse sponge loopers, ie it was all about the equipment rather than the skill of the player, the ironic thing is, it is the heavy use of spin by modern players that has made spinless pips successful, all of the spin in a rally originating from reverse rubber, the reason that lower level player are not successful against this style is because they really don't understand what is going on and cannot relate what comes back to them off the LP's to their previous shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 9:35am
great point APW6, you come very well equipped with a logical and rational direction. Wish i had the brains to express these key ideas in a more straightforward and intelligent manner
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 10:54am
Thanks theman, I am really bothered lately that the sport is losing its diversity and is gradually being eroded down skillwise. I know there is a fine balance, the ITTF wish the game to be seen as more of an athletic spectacle for sure to take the game at the top level  further away from the 'basement' culture, but it is a very fine line, and banning a layer of the gap (spinless pips) has done nothing exept narrow down the diversity of styles further. Not many or none world top 100 men playing with spinless, so no real threat to the top players, even if there was, the ITTF should put more trust in the ability for players/coaches to accept a challenge and sort any innovations of equipment out themselves, they always have done in the past, its what makes the sport more interesting. When LP's first appeared in the 1970's many players struggled to read them, but the first European to work them out was Stellan Bengtson, and what that shouts out loudly to me, it that he was a master of TT craft and ability, I want more Stellan Bengtsons who stick out, not more clones who do not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:


If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.
 
Cheap? Fairness?
 
This is someone has never read Sirlin's playing to win, otherwise he would understand and recognize scrub mentality.
 
 
The first step to evolving past the scrub phase is acknowledging it.
 
As a low level player, I realize that I am such, but enjoy the challenge of figuring out my opponents game.
 
It's part of what makes TT interesting, year after year, and opponent after opponent. If the game is reduced to a simple "whoever attacks first wins", the quality of gameplay and overall luster of the sport declines.
 
In the frictionless days, having an opponent act as a backboard to my loops was actually very interesting, and a great "classroom experience". It was an opportunity to learn (i came to better understand how much spin i was creating with each stroke).
 
So if you make the claim that frictionless rubber is "cheap", it simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of spin more than anything else.
 
Your voice echoes the oft-heard chorus of low to mid level intermediate players (usually in the US1400-1800 range) who can generate powerful spinny attacks to finish the point against other inverted players, but frequently have minimal understanding of overall strategies against different styles.
 
And in closing, I would still rather play against someone with traditional frictionless pips than the popular "treated" varieties (the ones with spinless tops, and sticky pip sides) because at my level, true frictionless behavior is far more comprehensible; I acknowledge that I lack the technique and the understanding to deal with the variability of treated pips. Re-Legalizing them would present a great stepping stone to further my understanding of the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pipigrande Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:


If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.
 
Cheap? Fairness?
 
This is someone has never read Sirlin's playing to win, otherwise he would understand and recognize scrub mentality.
 
....

And in closing, I would still rather play against someone with traditional frictionless pips than the popular "treated" varieties (the ones with spinless tops, and sticky pip sides) because at my level, true frictionless behavior is far more comprehensible; I acknowledge that I lack the technique and the understanding to deal with the variability of treated pips. Re-Legalizing them would present a great stepping stone to further my understanding of the game.


Excellent post, my friend. I see your TT journey will be very fun. I hope you keep enjoying TT till the day you can't move your arms/legs LOL

People around you are lucky to have such an open-minded/willing-to-learn-attitude player to play with. Thumbs up Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.


This is a very common belief in the lower levels, nothing strange with that. At the lowest levels, my guess is that any one who picks up a sheet of LP will win as neither of the players understand enough about spin to figure out what is going on.

How ever, once you are passed the beginners level, you will figure out how to play against this kind of players and unless they develop their game, you will crush them with ease.

This is when the LP player have to make his decision, either to give up0 his call for LP and return to double inverted, or, begin to practice more and figure out how to deal with those capable of playing against LP.

Those who decides to stick with LP are truly dedicated players and deserves your respect, since they have to put in a lot of effort to hold their own at a higher level. I'm not talking about pro level here, cause as soon as you have passed the beginner stadium, the LP can become a liability to you, so they need to work with them comes pretty quick.

While saying this, I'm willingly admitting that I don't enjoy watching the style, I don't enjoy playing it and I sure don't enjoy playing against it, but I respect those who have dedicated their practice to become good at this style. I gave it a go early on, but moved away from it pretty quick since I didn't have the patience to learn how to use it at the intermediate level, so now I'm more of a modern defender, a style I enjoy much more and a style that have allowed me to gain some levels as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/28/2010 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:



How ever, once you are passed the beginners level, you will figure out how to play against this kind of players and unless they develop their game, you will crush them with ease.



I have traveled a lot in China (my wife is Chinese and a pretty good player) and I have encountered there some of the strangest and most effective LP players imaginable, almost all penholders, and what they all have in common in addition to the usual things you expect is very effective attacks with the LP.  Believe me, you are going to have to be very far past the beginners level to deal with these players, who were amateur players but who would have ratings in the 2400 range in the US.  One I remember with particular horror was a female penholder, former Sichuan province team player probably about 30 years old, she would mostly use the LP during the point, but had an inverted RPB that was really spinny.  She could twiddle on serves, subtly hiding the point of contact (illegally but I was too polite to mention this) so that you couldn't see until the last possible instant which side she was serving with.  I have never seen any other penholder do that.    But mostly she used the LP side and would block and push very very very low and pretty much wherever she wanted and as soon as you hit the ball a little too high anywhere in the middle 65% of the table, THWACK!!!!  Or she would punch the thing with her backhand and it would corkscrew in some strange trajectory.  Then you would have to deal with this diabolical weird flat hit directed someplace uncomfortable. Her returns of serve were really really good.  Another thing she could do was move you from side to side relentlessly and by side I mean a few cm from the white line every time.  I am a decent enough player, but I had no answer to any of this.  When I could get hold of one to loop I won the point.  Hardly ever was allowed to do any of the things I do well.  And yet, someone like Schlager would make her look as bad as he did Pushblocker, which is NOT meant to be a swipe at Pushblocker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 4:34am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.


This is a very common belief in the lower levels, nothing strange with that. At the lowest levels, my guess is that any one who picks up a sheet of LP will win as neither of the players understand enough about spin to figure out what is going on.

How ever, once you are passed the beginners level, you will figure out how to play against this kind of players and unless they develop their game, you will crush them with ease.

This is when the LP player have to make his decision, either to give up0 his call for LP and return to double inverted, or, begin to practice more and figure out how to deal with those capable of playing against LP.


 A really good point speedplay for most players, unless touring China like BaalLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 5:00am
Baal, I'm sure she was impressive, but I'm also sure she have been working with her pips, learning how to cover up for some of the weaknesses that pips have and this is my point, to get to the next level with pips, you need to work as hard as you would with inverted. Unfortunately, since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.
 
Yup.
 
You also mention how much hard work is required. We have a player (US1600+) who switched to a deceptive medium pips with 1.0mm sponge on his backhand (for service return reasons and to add texture to his close to the table counterattacking game) about two years ago.
 
While his medium pips aren't quite long pips, the playing properties are very similar to a hitting long pip (there's some "reversal", he can smash with it, and the pips also have some grip against harder hit balls due to the sponge and pip sides)
 
What I noticed:
The medium pips gave him a bump against certain players (against serves and loops)
The medium pips made him weaker by removing the sort of topspin counterattacks he previously had (especially against people with strong pushes and placement tactics).
 
But two years into it, the pips are still as much of a liability as a strength. I was lucky enough to "figure out" some of the properties of his rubber and game early on (on slower balls, the pips he uses allow spin to pass through, and on faster balls, his rubber produces knuckleballs). Armed with that understanding, I've been able to beat him approximately 50% of the time (in both casual and tournament play).
 
Note that I am not claiming to be playing at his level (he regularly upsets US1800-1900 players who play a two winged loop or service and third ball game) - but I have figured out how to exploit his equipment choice and chosen appropriate tactics against them; something that many of his higher rated opponents have seemingly failed to do.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Baal, I'm sure she was impressive, but I'm also sure she have been working with her pips, learning how to cover up for some of the weaknesses that pips have and this is my point, to get to the next level with pips, you need to work as hard as you would with inverted. Unfortunately, since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.


Speedplay, you are right about everything, I agree completely.  I actually asked her why she started using LP and she laughed and told me that her coach thought her style was so ugly as a kid that he couldn't stand to look at it, so he brought her a paddle with LP and inverted on it and started to coach her this way.  She said it made her mad so she worked hard.  Even with all that effort there were some liabilities in her style, I was just not good enough to exploit them, but someone in the 2500-2600 range would have no problem.  Still, nobody can be as good as she is with ANY rubber without working hard.  My point is that if someone has done that, and has really learned to play with LP, they are really really tough.  People are as good as they are, and it makes no sense to attribute  to equipment what is really a result of hard work and talent.  It is possible to be really really good with LP and not be a chopper, like Deng Yaping. But you better be talented and work hard. I agree with Speedplay that slapping on a sheet of LP can get you from 1300 to 1700 quicker than many other things you can do.  After that, not so easy, and a 2200 LP player may look really awkward and if you are anywhere in that same rating level you better be prepared for a mentally exhausting battle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

.. since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.


This is very true, and players like this are really easy to beat, but I suppose they would be with inverted too.  But the inverted player at that same level would find the LP player very difficult.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

.. since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.
This is very true, and players like this are really easy to beat, but I suppose they would be with inverted too.  But the inverted player at that same level would find the LP player very difficult.


I played my last tournament with long pips on my backhand and it didn't help me beat anyone I wouldn't have already beat. I played a guy in groups that I played in a rating event earlier and between the events we hit around and I explained the fundamentals of how to deal with long pips and its effects because he had never seen it before and he did much better the second time around though I still won. But long pips didnt help me beat anyone I wouldn't have already beaten and was a hindrance to me due to my only having used them for 2 months against some people. But above say, 1250 or so, people aren't really phased by long pips, you just have to read the spin and pay attention more...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 2:51pm
Long pips should not be used as one's main weapon... Rather, it should be viewed as a blunt instrument to be used in combination with a sharp and powerful weapon... Sort of like your shield to your sword.  Many choose to use two swords in a gladiator fight, but a few like us prefer not too.  Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/29/2010 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Originally posted by kenneyy88 kenneyy88 wrote:

Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

I'm the 2nd highest rated non attacking long pips blocker in the country and the 6th highest rated long pips blocker including offensive blockers who use their forehand a lot.
Who are the other 5 long pip blockers? John Wetzler..., richard mcafee?,

 

Richard McAfee is one spot below me...

 

Here's the top 10 list

 

Sakda Timsuwan (2432)(WA) (looper who mixes in lp blocks)Rob Van Lier (2397) (CA) (looper/attacker who mixes in lp blocks)John Mark Wetzler (2386)(PA) (chop-blocker with a big forehand)Li, Zhi-Ming (2306) (MI) (penhold long pips blocker)Robert Shahnazari (2230)(CA) (pushblocker who attacks with the pips and also forehand)Olivier Mader (2207)(FL) (non attacking pushblocker - backhand oriented)Richard McAfee (2198)(CO) (allround long pips blocker/hitter/attacker)Peter Chen (2180)(CA) (penhold long pips blocker)William Lin (2143)(CA) (offensive long pips blocker and short pips hitter - twiddles) 

Dickie Flieisher (approx. 2307) is not on the list as his game is mainly a long pips attacking and not blocking game. He does block but he usually attacks.. This list only includes players whose main stroke on the backhand is their push/block.. His style is basically a short pips style using medium pips..
Don't forget Rocky Wang, currently USATT 2381.
BBC Ghost, TSP Spinpips RED, Talon OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nightcrawler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 1:18am
pretty cool, i was surprised. The poor american guy, Schlager wasn't even moving lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bravefest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:


If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.
 
Cheap? Fairness?
 
This is someone has never read Sirlin's playing to win, otherwise he would understand and recognize scrub mentality.
 
 
The first step to evolving past the scrub phase is acknowledging it.
 
As a low level player, I realize that I am such, but enjoy the challenge of figuring out my opponents game.
 
It's part of what makes TT interesting, year after year, and opponent after opponent. If the game is reduced to a simple "whoever attacks first wins", the quality of gameplay and overall luster of the sport declines.
 
In the frictionless days, having an opponent act as a backboard to my loops was actually very interesting, and a great "classroom experience". It was an opportunity to learn (i came to better understand how much spin i was creating with each stroke).
 
So if you make the claim that frictionless rubber is "cheap", it simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of spin more than anything else.
 
Your voice echoes the oft-heard chorus of low to mid level intermediate players (usually in the US1400-1800 range) who can generate powerful spinny attacks to finish the point against other inverted players, but frequently have minimal understanding of overall strategies against different styles.
 
And in closing, I would still rather play against someone with traditional frictionless pips than the popular "treated" varieties (the ones with spinless tops, and sticky pip sides) because at my level, true frictionless behavior is far more comprehensible; I acknowledge that I lack the technique and the understanding to deal with the variability of treated pips. Re-Legalizing them would present a great stepping stone to further my understanding of the game.


Well congrats on receiving the IDIOT AWARD for not understanding any part of what I said.

I specifically pointed out that long pips are not cheap at world class level, and I would be perfectly willing to admit they are a disadvantage at that stage.  At the level of the casual player, on the other hand, long pips are considered cheap by many who play with and against them. 

If your opinion is: "anyone who beats me in a table tennis match is better than I am in every aspect of the game" - well, it's your right to have that mindset.

My opinion is that players at a low level can and very often do use long pips to compensate for not learning correct technique. 

Is the guy playing against WS in the video a good player?  If he has a 2300 rating, then yes, he probably is.  On the other hand, his form looks worse than two players (1900 and 2000) I saw recently going head to head.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:


If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.
 
Cheap? Fairness?
 
This is someone has never read Sirlin's playing to win, otherwise he would understand and recognize scrub mentality.
 
 
The first step to evolving past the scrub phase is acknowledging it.
 
As a low level player, I realize that I am such, but enjoy the challenge of figuring out my opponents game.
 
It's part of what makes TT interesting, year after year, and opponent after opponent. If the game is reduced to a simple "whoever attacks first wins", the quality of gameplay and overall luster of the sport declines.
 
In the frictionless days, having an opponent act as a backboard to my loops was actually very interesting, and a great "classroom experience". It was an opportunity to learn (i came to better understand how much spin i was creating with each stroke).
 
So if you make the claim that frictionless rubber is "cheap", it simply demonstrates your lack of understanding of spin more than anything else.
 
Your voice echoes the oft-heard chorus of low to mid level intermediate players (usually in the US1400-1800 range) who can generate powerful spinny attacks to finish the point against other inverted players, but frequently have minimal understanding of overall strategies against different styles.
 
And in closing, I would still rather play against someone with traditional frictionless pips than the popular "treated" varieties (the ones with spinless tops, and sticky pip sides) because at my level, true frictionless behavior is far more comprehensible; I acknowledge that I lack the technique and the understanding to deal with the variability of treated pips. Re-Legalizing them would present a great stepping stone to further my understanding of the game.


Well congrats on receiving the IDIOT AWARD for not understanding any part of what I said.

I specifically pointed out that long pips are not cheap at world class level, and I would be perfectly willing to admit they are a disadvantage at that stage.  At the level of the casual player, on the other hand, long pips are considered cheap by many who play with and against them. 

If your opinion is: "anyone who beats me in a table tennis match is better than I am in every aspect of the game" - well, it's your right to have that mindset.

My opinion is that players at a low level can and very often do use long pips to compensate for not learning correct technique. 

Is the guy playing against WS in the video a good player?  If he has a 2300 rating, then yes, he probably is.  On the other hand, his form looks worse than two players (1900 and 2000) I saw recently going head to head.


"That guy" has a 2215 rating and will be adjusted upwards after his recent performance at Cary Cup.  And yes, he is a "good" player.

Some lower level players do use long pips to mask their weaknesses and try to get some undeserved wins.  The same can be said of countless barely-above-basement-level players who rely on spinny serves, spinny pushes and spinny loops to get most of their points against garage players.  That's not the fault of the rubber they chose to use.  It's the player's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr.ChubbToMaTo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 6:32pm
Yes I agree!
Hope ya all starts to play with Yellow Candles in your shorts, just like Xang Jing from afrika. Oh yea, he got lots of crazy ideeas. Maybe thats why he is so good?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:


Well congrats on receiving the IDIOT AWARD for not understanding any part of what I said.I specifically pointed out that long pips are not cheap at world class level, and I would be perfectly willing to admit they are a disadvantage at that stage.  At the level of the casual player, on the other hand, long pips are considered cheap by many who play with and against them.  If your opinion is: "anyone who beats me in a table tennis match is better than I am in every aspect of the game" - well, it's your right to have that mindset.My opinion is that players at a low level can and very often do use long pips to compensate for not learning correct technique.  Is the guy playing against WS in the video a good player?  If he has a 2300 rating, then yes, he probably is.  On the other hand, his form looks worse than two players (1900 and 2000) I saw recently going head to head.


The Idiot award, is that the one handed out by last years winner?

I mean, with a line like this:

"anyone who beats me in a table tennis match is better than I am in every aspect of the game"

it sounds possible, cause when was it said that the winner needed to be better in every aspect of the game? You might be better then me stroke by stroke, but using a horrible tactic and loss. If so, then I'm the better player, it is a simple as that.

I fail to understand why so many people are concerned with what their opponents use. Focus on your own equipment and learn how to handle it to it's best and let other use what they think suits them the best. If you are the better player, you will win regardless of what they use.

The one exception here is at the very early beginners stage were LP (and not only frictionless, but all LP) might give a small advantage to the user, but that is probably more because the LP player is focusing on keeping the ball on the table, while the double inverted player tries to play like he is Wang Liqin him self, mindlessly attacking everything, strikes him self out of the game and then blame the opponents pips.

Frictionless pips are the easiest to play against, because the lack the element of surprise. Sure, I can still lose to players using it, but not because they use them, but because they are better players then I am.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2010 at 7:35pm
The one exception here is at the very early beginners stage were LP (and not only frictionless, but all LP) might give a small advantage to the user, but that is probably more because the LP player is focusing on keeping the ball on the table, while the double inverted player tries to play like he is Wang Liqin him self, mindlessly attacking everything, strikes him self out of the game and then blame the opponents pips.


Bingo!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2010 at 12:30am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

The one exception here is at the very early beginners stage were LP (and not only frictionless, but all LP) might give a small advantage to the user, but that is probably more because the LP player is focusing on keeping the ball on the table, while the double inverted player tries to play like he is Wang Liqin him self, mindlessly attacking everything, strikes him self out of the game and then blame the opponents pips.


Bingo!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2010 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by nathanso nathanso wrote:

Don't forget Rocky Wang, currently USATT 2381.[/QUOTE]
 
Rocky is playing short pips, at least when I played him at the Cary Cup.. That was a close match...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2010 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

Originally posted by gjairmy gjairmy wrote:

Originally posted by bravefest bravefest wrote:

I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.

I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.


Despite their lack of fundamentals, there is no need to insult anyone. There is a chinese saying that goes something along the lines of...if you lose to someone because of lack of skills, then don't complain". And get this...there are no shortcuts in life.

If you, or me, or anyone loses consistently to a particular style..then it just means that we are slow at adapting, and quick adaptation/adjustment is an essential skill in table tennis...if u don't have that skill and they beat you fair and square then don't whine about it. Learn their style and overcome it...if u can't then u know that you are limited in skills (and this alone should motivate u to improve your table tennis basics)


Well, if you didn't understand my point, let me rephrase:

I've tested out long pips.  They are easy to use.  I win against players who are much much much better than I am when I use long pips.  I don't deserve those wins because they don't take any skill/practice.

If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.

And by the way, it would seem with the ban of frictionless long pips by the ITTF, the governing body of table tennis would seem to agree with me to a limited extent.
Long pips will help you to get to a certain level faster but they are actually a handicap once you reach a certain level.. There's only a handful of long pips blocker at the table above 2200 level.. If you think that you can play 2200 level by blocking with long pips on the backhand, I'd like to see that... Again, there is no doubt that pips help you at LOWER levels but after a certain level, the rubber is not going to win you anything as players know exactly what the rubber does and are not surprised by it..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2010 at 3:10pm
Not to mention that even against not-so-high rated players who use SP or hard-sponged rubbers, LPs do not cause that much confusion and therefore a 2100-2200 rated LP player might find himself losing to a 1900-2000 inverted or SP player simply because the other guy is not bothered by LP deception factor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2010 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Not to mention that even against not-so-high rated players who use SP or hard-sponged rubbers, LPs do not cause that much confusion and therefore a 2100-2200 rated LP player might find himself losing to a 1900-2000 inverted or SP player simply because the other guy is not bothered by LP deception factor.


The highest rated regular at my club is a 2100 rated combination user, plays away from the table with long pips and tenergy on a fast blade using location and twiddling. He's been more or less at the same level though for the last 10+ years though even though he plays more than any other person at the club and doesn't really have and weaknesses in his game. A 2000 level strong looper beats him more times than not because he reads the spin well and isn't fooled by anything. I have little doubt he'd fare better against higher people with inverted on both sides, however it keeps him at this same level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2010 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Not to mention that even against not-so-high rated players who use SP or hard-sponged rubbers, LPs do not cause that much confusion and therefore a 2100-2200 rated LP player might find himself losing to a 1900-2000 inverted or SP player simply because the other guy is not bothered by LP deception factor.


The highest rated regular at my club is a 2100 rated combination user, plays away from the table with long pips and tenergy on a fast blade using location and twiddling. He's been more or less at the same level though for the last 10+ years though even though he plays more than any other person at the club and doesn't really have and weaknesses in his game. A 2000 level strong looper beats him more times than not because he reads the spin well and isn't fooled by anything. I have little doubt he'd fare better against higher people with inverted on both sides, however it keeps him at this same level.


True. If your guy can counterloop more or less anything then he can overpower the LP deception as well, I guess.

I am just saying that having really hard-sponged rubbers (not that a lot of people play with those) helps a lot. When I used to play with Reactor Tornado (which is the hardest-sponged rubber I ever used, must be around 44-45 DHS scale), I had LP/anti players ask me after the game smth along the lines "how come you didn't care whether I used my inverted side or LP side, it didn't seem to have any effect on your strokes".
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