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ejmaster View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2010 at 8:26pm
Laszlo, you are a terrible liar. official clarifying. 
 
You think someone is going to believe i just asked for a colorful handle in the EJm sn465?. weight, thickness, head shape, head size, plys, weight balance, handle design, and afterwards additional crispness, remanufacturing, etc, etc. were my design requirements, first in the sn465 and then to get the EJm sn465.
 
And then (at least in this forum), you get out your virtuoso. EJm sn465, is better blade than virtuoso.
 
It is simple:
 
Palatinus manufacturing + Palatinus (Laszlo) design = ? blade.
 
Palatinus manufacturing + ejmaster design = good blade.
 
I explained to you several times.
 
 
At present, EJmaster wood has nothing to do with Palatinus anymore.
 
OSP blade line, is Palatinus design.
 
I just gave a tip in a thread. Then you get out in a post with your L, M, S offer. Then, not before. 
 
btwy, the weight change is not more dominant than the head shape (length) to the stiffness in this virtuoso blade. it is not to think, it is to know.
 
I have never talked to R. Palatinus who I think is the Palatinus master. That is why i am refering to Laszlo as Palatinus sometimes.
 
About the handles:
* The ejmaster st, is 29 mm wide and 23 mm thick base and 22 mm thick neck. original design. my design. your design (my first idea was a bengston type), was the failing tbalc st, that i agreed at that time but it was a headache later.
 
* About the FL, based on the Alser, is 26 mm thick base and 22,5 mm thick neck. I asked to test the FL osp shape what is quite similar, because i didn't like the last FL you sent me getting thinner in the middle, instead of linear thickness decreasing from base to neck as in former blades. I explained to you. At the end, the ejmaster FL remains pointing out linear thickness decreasing as the first EJm blades. very good FL handle.
 
EJmaster sn465 handles can not be like osp handles. osp wood handle is very solid and having a nice touch they would add too much weight to a EJm sn465. I know that you do not realize. As many times before, you think an EJm sn465 can have an osp handle. so easy.
 
 
 
 
   


Edited by ejmaster - 08/05/2010 at 11:32pm
EJ Club.

MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2010 at 9:23pm
Really interesting stuff.
But there is so much ESL stuff that I am getting confused.

All I know is that for the little more than the price of another Avalox blade, I got something (the Virtuoso L) that has the best attributes of the 550 (close to table looping, absurd short game control) and the best attributes of the Stiga OC (controllable flat/drives/smashes, powerful loops out to mid distance) all with better feel.

Compared to 550, the flex is not so much that the blade produces "surprises" for the user.
Compared to the OC, the feel and balance are superior.

Oh, and the handle is better than the Stiga Master and Legend FL.

Just my .02 on money well spent.
US1260.RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/05/2010 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Really interesting stuff.
But there is so much ESL stuff that I am getting confused.

All I know is that for the little more than the price of another Avalox blade, I got something (the Virtuoso L) that has the best attributes of the 550 (close to table looping, absurd short game control) and the best attributes of the Stiga OC (controllable flat/drives/smashes, powerful loops out to mid distance) all with better feel.

Compared to 550, the flex is not so much that the blade produces "surprises" for the user.
Compared to the OC, the feel and balance are superior.

Oh, and the handle is better than the Stiga Master and Legend FL.

Just my .02 on money well spent.
 
The thing is that from 0-10, in average virtuoso can be 8,8 (the best one, M or sanded) and a tb alc, mm or tbs or viscaria or a yeo or an acoustic L, can be around 9,4 to a +2,200 player. 


Edited by ejmaster - 08/05/2010 at 11:46pm
EJ Club.

MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 12:03am
Originally posted by PLLsystem PLLsystem wrote:

A sanded Virtuoso L is not the same as factory made M.


Indeed. Beware customizing or even sealing Virtuoso or you will end up with a broken blade like we did here. After having sealed Virtuoso with Andro seal and sanded it away - or due the natural process of maturing, I don't know the real cause, Virtuoso changed its characteristics to ALL, got so powerless that his owner threw it at the floor and broke it.

Probably the first broken Virtuoso.

Love is passion.


Edited by Imago - 08/06/2010 at 12:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 3:34am
Originally posted by ejmaster ejmaster wrote:

Laszlo, you are a terrible liar. official clarifying. 
 
You think someone is going to believe i just asked for a colorful handle in the EJm sn465?. weight, thickness, head shape, head size, plys, weight balance, handle design, and afterwards additional crispness, remanufacturing, etc, etc. were my design requirements, first in the sn465 and then to get the EJm sn465.
 
And then (at least in this forum), you get out your virtuoso. EJm sn465, is better blade than virtuoso.
 
It is simple:
 
Palatinus manufacturing + Palatinus (Laszlo) design = ? blade.
 
Palatinus manufacturing + ejmaster design = good blade.
 
I explained to you several times.
 
 
At present, EJmaster wood has nothing to do with Palatinus anymore.
 
OSP blade line, is Palatinus design.
 
I just gave a tip in a thread. Then you get out in a post with your L, M, S offer. Then, not before. 
 
btwy, the weight change is not more dominant than the head shape (length) to the stiffness in this virtuoso blade. it is not to think, it is to know.
 
I have never talked to R. Palatinus who I think is the Palatinus master. That is why i am refering to Laszlo as Palatinus sometimes.
 
About the handles:
* The ejmaster st, is 29 mm wide and 23 mm thick base and 22 mm thick neck. original design. my design. your design (my first idea was a bengston type), was the failing tbalc st, that i agreed at that time but it was a headache later.
 
* About the FL, based on the Alser, is 26 mm thick base and 22,5 mm thick neck. I asked to test the FL osp shape what is quite similar, because i didn't like the last FL you sent me getting thinner in the middle, instead of linear thickness decreasing from base to neck as in former blades. I explained to you. At the end, the ejmaster FL remains pointing out linear thickness decreasing as the first EJm blades. very good FL handle.
 
EJmaster sn465 handles can not be like osp handles. osp wood handle is very solid and having a nice touch they would add too much weight to a EJm sn465. I know that you do not realize. As many times before, you think an EJm sn465 can have an osp handle. so easy.

LOL What will you say tomorrow? You are Master Palatinus?
Think it over José, what you asked is not designing. Such demands can be revealed and has been continuously being asked by many developing player. We made more than 500 custommade rackets and you will not believe, all of them had demands that we outlined. You dont differ from them. Or they are all designers.. (What do you think about us? Are we living in a box waiting Master José to deliver the solution?) Achieving demands that is designing knowledge. Knowing how to make eg. crispness that is designing. You asked us making so irregular features that proved you havent got a slight idea on designing. You just made puzzles so much that we had to ignore time to time mainly because it was impossible to make a good blade. I am sorry to let you know that here but your sn465 is based on GraemeW's racket and only modifications made that we allowed. As you surely remember I wrote you that you experimented with things that we had been over for 5 years. You can find many similar rackets in our portfolio to sn465. Believe me we had been able to make good rackets before after you ordered.

Anyway what about the 7ply ejm racket that you forced us to let you specify veneers?

BTW. Do you really believe that we read your posts here and run into our workshop to put something together in few days? LOL We really have far better professionals to work with so we dont depend on your idea. (Idea from somebody who state different blade is the best blade week by week? No thanks.) And I tell you we are not that kind who design a blade in few days. We really devote time to design/build something.

About OSP line I have to declare again - as I wrote you many times - we had been working on that before you ordered the first blade. As you wrote you are right I have checked you posted you sanded down 2 days before we revealed S,M,L versions. But DHS revealed it when HK came up. Or Siga made 155 to 160 mm heads in the 70's. So who was the first? Anyway it does not matter. What matters is that Virtuoso S,M,L idea is not based on your idea. It is regular solution. Moreover it is not sure that sanding down any Virutoso L result the same as you succeeded so you proved again that you are not an expert.

@fatt
I am sorry for that inconvenience. Should I ingore ejmasters posts from now?



Edited by PLLsystem - 08/06/2010 at 3:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 4:11am
I,.m still wondering the differences between s,m and l virtuoso. Most cases where a blade is offered in different headsize versions the difference in size and shape is the same as sanding the head down. Is it different here when holding the blades flat to each other how do they compare where the blade runs to the griphalves ? If I would buy one I would first like to know these differences.

If they are different in this the M being wider in the neckas the griphalves being put on 1 mm higher on the lamina I would have a problem with the wider neck as for quick play closer to the table I find a smaller neck area easier to manouvre the blade around.

If you sand the head down of a virtuoso L with 1 or 2 mm there is no way it will not become a worse blade you just need to play it in because it will have to find different frequencies on ballcontact then with the bigger head. The blade and the woods have to find these vibrations (harmonizing in away) and need some time for it to settle as it first adapted to the bigger head it is like as if is false (tonewise comparing musical instrument). But wood (mostly softer woods) are very adaptive in that and it is one of the reasons that a design in headshape is not that important (only for specific type of players, which is a case of preference) the woods adapt because of the plastic properties (mostly the light coloured softer part of the wood where you get an easy dent with a fingernail ).

Having changed the headsize it first will give tension spots in the woodplies like sort a knots that intervene between the player and the ball. Feelwise and energywise, felt as no feeling or more harsh vibration. A few sessions and it is allready much better and with time it would have been as good as any virtuoso I,m near hundred procent certain about that, it,s part of the mystery and beauty of wood.  With the strong elastic type of gluing of these blades  it just can take a little more time to invest in it.

Considering griphalves the woods sure have much influence. Solid wood (one piece) can be good but also a few different layers layers. For instance the borko and palatinus griphalves you can see they have a view different types of woods (with different colours) combined. Stiga handles also have this. These works decorative but at the same time funktional, decoration as with some fancy designs is not the reason for it.
For instance using a softer thin abachi layer on the blade first it can be used with grain perpendicular to the outer veneer adding good stability but allowing the blade to flex inside the handle a little and giving some dampening it adds control for more passive strokes and a dynamic feel for offensive play. The next harder layer with grain lengthwise controls the flex lengthwise, makes the feel to the hand more direkt and gives more power to the blade.

What the best griphalve is depends on the lamina and what (who)  the blade is meant for but it,s always a funktional part of the final result offcourse.


Edited by tompy - 08/06/2010 at 4:22am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 4:16am
Frankly this is simply getting annoying.
I would recommend ejmaster to develop skills that people like Borko ows. Also PLLsystem should not show off such an agressive defense if he is so skilled; if the difference in skills is that much in favor on any side then we should not have such a silly discussion.
It all sounds like a bad middle school play to me.
Ping Pong will do that to many people, including me: sometimes we will act like little kids no matter how old we are; also I see 14 yo young people acting so adult when telling me "when you keep your cool you play better" (it happened today... wow! I felt weird).
Anyway let's write better here and keep our cool.
Thank you for your cooperation.
(I LOVE THAT GAME)
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 4:21am
@tompy: sorry to have posted that  right after you; I am such a slow typist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 4:26am
tnx fatt. you are right.
sorry for that inconvenience guys
from now i will ignore ejmaster posts and trying not to pollute this really good topic



Edited by PLLsystem - 08/06/2010 at 4:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 6:36am
@tompy

We are glad to see you have similar approach to the wood as mysterious material. We absolutely agree with the handle principle. The old Stiga Mellis and Ehrlich rackets are clear examples with their one piece heat-treated beech wood, and we can follow their development how they adjust the handles to their later rackets like offensive wood very-layered handles. It is hard to tell in numbers but we guess around 30% the importance of the handle material and suiting the lamina. (there is another very important factor - I am interested can you find it out Wink )

I have to quote again Master Palatinus since we believe that: "The racket determines playing style an a playing style demands certain racket." And this point we disagree a bit since we consider the shape of the head a bit more important than you described if I understand you well.
In case o S,M,L Virtuoso we kept the base Virtuoso and modified the upper head's arc in order to harmonize the modified length to the base bottom. We left the neck and the handle to keep the original Virtuoso features. I think these modifications take effect. In our principle (9-10 posts above) and experience at pro players longer egg head helps a bit using your torque BH more effectively from mid distance and shorter head provides a bit more close to the table FH advantages. I can imagine that for a developing player or other level players can feel mixed advantages. Anyway it is hard to check as you wrote due to the material since 2 Virtuoso M can differ.

OSP Blades - ospblades.com - oldstiga standard by Palatinus
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tiehwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 12:21pm
whew..
finally dust settled and we have now peace & quiet and let's just focus on the REAL intent of this amazing subject/topic of this amazing (2 me personally) blade. There're a lotta interesting points and counter-points beside those "confrontational" ones.
Dunno abt the feeling of the rest of the Virtuoso owners but I do know myself that when it comes time for me to play this Virtuoso this weekend, I just know I won't stop smiling w/it in my hand and I'd just let my blade do the "talking" for me and the rest of these "Technical" insights...whew..I'll leave them to you all, the blade scientists. Big smile


Edited by tiehwen - 08/07/2010 at 12:12am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 4:32pm
Virtuoso: Pratcice Match and Club Results
 
From the last week
 
-winning about 30% of games (up from 25%) against my training partner who is US200+ points higher and knows my game inside and out and all my serves (the ability to safely apply pressure and then switch into finishing the point).
 
-winning about 35% (up from roughly 25%) against my training partner who is US500+ points higher. He hates my game (i have no right beating him, but i figured out his weaknesses and the virtuoso lets me stay in the point long enough to exploit them).
 
-won my division in league, went undefeated in 7 matches (all players around my lowly rating).
 
More important than the wins, I had much more complete points that had quite a bit of setup, rally for position, and winners. Noticeably fewer unforced errors (2-3) per game to boot.
 
This blade supports my current game.
US1260.RC1042 . OSP Virtuoso AC: PK50 + R42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/06/2010 at 11:56pm
I would like to thank Robert Palatinus for the brilliant work and Laszlo for the great communication - yesterday got my custom-made blade: exactly what specified in the order form down to the last gram and mm. And more - you guys seem to have read my mind as the final product is what I intended it to be but failed to properly describe. This beauty looks so great that I am afraid to play with it. Tongue A real masterpiece!

P.S. Could you please confirm that the blade does not need sealing - the outer ply is not that shiny as Virtuoso's and I am afraid it will splinter.




Edited by Imago - 08/07/2010 at 12:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tiehwen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 1:34am
another happy owner or member of Old Stiga Standard Palatinus blades. Sounds like it's not quite a Virtuoso. What's it? Custom-made exclusively specifically for you, you & you only, eh? Big smile
To be honest, all those "negative" things/posts/threads about OSP blades don't seem to sway/distract other potential owners away from acquiring them.
What a surprising way to promote the OSP blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 4:21am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

More important than the wins, I had much more complete points that had quite a bit of setup, rally for position, and winners. Noticeably fewer unforced errors (2-3) per game to boot. This blade supports my current game.

Thanks for sharing icontek. This is what we intend to support in our philosophy. Improving unforced errors number means longer rallies that means combinations means you can use tactic and wider scale of shots. It is undisputed result. And there is something important in my experience: sometimes that kind of developing doesnt couple with result immediately. But who devote time to explore the blade and train will surely reach this.

I know its a bit mysterious but what icontek wrote is not in our OSP rackets but in his mind. Its mainly brainwork. His blade is just the right equipment that let him achieve what in his head. And the connection between a players mind and blade are footwork and strokes namely body. That is why you cant get away from training with buying the most expensive racket all over the world or the blade belongs to eg. Ma Long.

I also have a tip for those who are ready to do for 'brain development'. I talked many times of Istvan Szabo who was a coach and became a friend of Master Palatinus during his son's coaching. He said that connection between you left and right brain is very important in table tennis. And he had many kind of exercises  to improve that connection. Without boring you I suggest just playing with your left hand (if you are right handed) for 10 minutes at the end of your 1 hour sessions and it will take effect on your native hand performance.

Have a good play :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

P.S. Could you please confirm that the blade does not need sealing - the outer ply is not that shiny as Virtuoso's and I am afraid it will splinter.

After your clubs Andro sealing story we sealed that racket lightly to avoid breaking Big smile
Have a good play.


Edited by PLLsystem - 08/07/2010 at 4:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 4:56am
Originally posted by tompy tompy wrote:

If they are different in this the M being wider in the neckas the griphalves being put on 1 mm higher on the lamina I would have a problem with the wider neck as for quick play closer to the table I find a smaller neck area easier to manouvre the blade around.

I know that Master Palatinus personally prefer the rackets (like my avatar) with neck flexibility instead of head flexibility. It doesnt tremble just give a kick so stability remains and a spring like power added. (Like old Stiga Original, Tony Larsson, Kjell Johansson or some Banda rackets from the old era) Sometimes he goes back to his Original.

We know very good players who also like that stile of rackets eg. Peter Aranyosi (Budesliga trainer, Coach of the Hungarian national Men Team, 2nd place 2006 40yrs senior WC) We made for him an Ehrlich replica 5.7mm with hard Limba outerply, hard handle and he was fond of the sanded neck style of his original Ehrlich. So the result:



Edited by PLLsystem - 08/07/2010 at 4:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jolan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 7:27am
OMG ! Stop it at once ! Mods please, ban PPL right away or my wallet will not resist !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 7:50am
Thanks JC LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 8:09am
First of all I have an engineering background too, so sorry for thatWink it,s another sickness besides tabletennis so just skip my posts if it is boring or irritating  to read which I can imagine........

It depends what is referred to as "the neck"  to me it was meant as the part from approx the balanceline of the blade to where the lamina disappears underneath the griphalves. I see that as an area more then a line or a distinct "anatomic part" of the lamina. In that area from the balance line (approx) down towards the grip the blade gets less stiff when it gets smaller. From where the griphalves start it stiffens again because the griphalves give rigidity.

With this Ehrlich design the stiffness decreases slower as the blade is kept wider at first. The flexibility concentrates in a very shortzone. Obviously that is what for palatinus is the neckarea.

To me compared to the conventional design of these days with this Ehrlich blade the neck is shortened and hence it plays stiffer. I think it works confusing to make distinction between head-flex and neck flex.





Edited by tompy - 08/07/2010 at 9:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 8:18am
My first blade was one of the very early Butterflys handed down from my father which had a square shape, it was a very good flexible blade, so much so that eventually (after it was 15 years old) it clean broke in half just above the handle through the neck. It had never been hit on the table or anything like that, just wore out from flexing so much and fell in half, but 15 years was long enough :)

Edited by nicefrog - 08/07/2010 at 8:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 8:48am
@tompy
There are many old Siga fan I know who consider that line as etalon. They say it must be around or equal to 9.6-9.8mm Smile

@nicefrog
You must be right. That area always shows like you described.

I think it is not by chance that the old Stiga manufactory had their knowledge. As you all surely know Stiga made hunting equipment with archery equipment among them. So they surely had useful knowledge about flexing power and laminated wood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 9:38am
Nicefrog, it broke not because it was more flexible in that zone but because the other parts where all stiff. Imagine a casting road of five meter long. The two meter - thinner - toppart  will break more easy if the other three meter are made stiffer. Allthough material is added the risk at breaking is increased when casting. The top will flex more with same momentum (thus topflexible) but is not more flexible when it is kept unchanged it is ecqually stiff (as resistance against flexing). As a whole the rod is stiffened. Bows the idea works the same strengthening will not always makes it more effective to shoot an arrow faster.

From say (approximate) the etalon where the blade is least stiff the blade stiffens in two directions ; towards the griphalves where the griphalves support the lamina and in opposite direction where the blade gets wider and also the momentum decreases not hard to tell where it flexes the most. And in that I understand the term neck-flexible relative to other parts but as a whole this shape stiffens the blade and makes dwelltime shorter with same lamina. In my earlier posts I just used the word neckarea a bit different that,s all there is to it, I,m not discussing Palatinus knowledge here (I would not dare :-).

A shape as this Ehrlich blade can still be flexible if the lamina is flexible enough  (older blades often had thinner more flexible lamina) then the torsion stabilty increases with this design (it,s good for defensive blades). That,s the most important funktion of this shape.
Just take notice of how the blade gets wider rapidly before the griphalves end. Imagine the griphalves a mm lower on the blade and the whole blade could break with one smash just as the top of the fishing rod. Flexibity can also work out as strength. You just have to look at a tree how it bends with a strong wind. If a tree would not be able to bend it would break.




Edited by tompy - 08/07/2010 at 10:36am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 10:35am

'Neck flexibility is bad. Particularly when it brings torsion momentum. The flexibility must be in the blade head with solidness'. ejmaster blade design concept.

The blade in the avatar is not a good design. I would suggest to change the avatar blade.

When the blade head shape goes to be wider in the neck area, it is good to have wider neck joint area (handle width connection area) what determines sometimes wider handles to support the increased torsion momentum in the neck area. In some blades the design goes to extend the blade head to a lower position to the handle, but this brings more weight (some old dhs blades).

both the blade in the avatar and the elhrick replica blade are not good designs. but they have a lot of glamour. in the elhrick replica blade maybe the handle neck being wider can do something but probably the blade head should go lower to enforce torsion resistance.
 
old standards sometimes are wrong concepts.
 
 


Edited by ejmaster - 08/07/2010 at 11:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 12:12pm
You noticed that it is smaller by a bit and in principle you,re right but for control oriented play and manouvrebility close to table grip variation placing the griphalves relatively low (what it comes down to) is important.
Gripping a bit higher on the blade a player controlling the torsion and flex with indexfinger, thumb etc to the blade is also more effective. Being able to grip higher you get more control and even stability. It,s part of this design. From that (a controlled grip and manouvrability) the design only adds to the stability as it mostly makes the blade wider where it doesn,t intervene with the grip. With a bit cost for the dynamic feel but for some styles thats a positive trade.

This design just disappeared (almost) when they had to make blades thicker because of changes in materials and production. That resulted in less dynamic blades with for a given speed less flex but more stable (the glue era where the rubbers offered a more dynamic feel came in handy for that).
To keep it somewhat dynamic as the thickness added enough stability this design lost it,s funktion.
But as Palatinus works different it still could be an option for some types off play (mostly defensive, control oriented, certainly not for a modern offensive game with fh looping from far distance).

What baffles me a little is that you seem to have not adapted you,re "designs" to how Palatinus works. You mentioned you haven,t even met him. That,s maybe the biggest mistake you can make with designing.
For someone as palatinus design, craftmanship materials is not distinct as with mass-produktion where there is an order starting with a complete design from the head department and then being executed by either a machine or a labour man working as a machine. Working that way is massproduction, labours working like a machine following the design of the "head -department".  Working that way the result is mostly poor.


Edited by tompy - 08/07/2010 at 12:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 3:08pm
Tompy

Pllsystem's avatar and the Ehrlich blade; are both good examples of a well designed allround minus/defensive blade; from the past. There are still a valid design even today, with modern rubbers; as I know two very good players locally, who are still using their Stiga Ehrlich blades; to good effect. 

I've also got some old Barna's that look like Pllsystem's avatar, with Barna orthodox pips and they are fun to play hardbat with.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by Peter C Peter C wrote:

Tompy

Pllsystem's avatar and the Ehrlich blade; are both good examples of a well designed allround minus/defensive blade; from the past. There are still a valid design even today, with modern rubbers; as I know two very good players locally, who are still using their Stiga Ehrlich blades; to good effect. 

I've also got some old Barna's that look like Pllsystem's avatar, with Barna orthodox pips and they are fun to play hardbat with.



 
neck flexibility and torsion momentum is bad to either off, all, defensive or whatever blade you like. And those blades are not an example of good design no matter all or def or off.
 
Hanging around with three legs stories, trying to have a kind of protagonism that it does not come from knowledge. belonging to the group 'i hear bells but do not know where the sound comes from'. 
 
And that you know two very good players, ....
 
I also had Barna blades and they are absolutely out of date to play today and nothing special to value as a very good blade, neither in the past nor in the present.
 
A lot of data and references are unuseful without the right concepts. In this situation it usually happens that someones who are talking thousand of technic words do not learn anything because they wrongly think that they know. At the end, tend to copy without knowing, with a random result.
 


Edited by ejmaster - 08/07/2010 at 6:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tompy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Peter C Peter C wrote:

Tompy

Pllsystem's avatar and the Ehrlich blade; are both good examples of a well designed allround minus/defensive blade; from the past. There are still a valid design even today, with modern rubbers; as I know two very good players locally, who are still using their Stiga Ehrlich blades; to good effect. 

I've also got some old Barna's that look like Pllsystem's avatar, with Barna orthodox pips and they are fun to play hardbat with.



I know, I meant not (or much less) suitable with the way (and materials) how current blades are mass produced.

Blades are a little thicker to compensate for the loss in speed due to the different gluing. It,s hard to explain this if you haven't experienced it in a direct comparison with exactly the same lamina,s but different gluing. Lets say I use an abachi core 3 mm and identical veneers to make two blades 5,5 mm thick each.

For the eye they,re completely identical weight also. But playing it,s different.
One can be all+, relatively quick with a controlled flex, dynamic, crisp but solid feel and getting faster the harder you hit. It adapts by stiffening on high impact. The other blade lacks power on hard hits less responsive to what the player wants and does, less feedback less controlled flex etc.

That,s the type of differences between old-stiga,s and the current ones if stiga wouldn,t have adapted the design (or otherblades from that era) to the materials and process.
Simply thicken the core a few tenths of mm and the control of flex is more or less back, the speed on flat strokes is the same and the torsionstability also. But the dynamics and speed for looping is decreased because the flex lengthwise has decreased with the thicker core where the torsionstiffness only stayed the same.

That difference has to do with the opposed grain direction of the layers in a lamina (plywood). To use that build (design) optimal for torsion stiffness (part of the design of almost all blades) the connection between the veneers has to be strong. For that the type of glue (and the craftmanship) plays a role. With a strong bound the torsionstiffness increases more then the flexing stiffness because five plies is not stiffer then one ply of same thickness but much more stable torsionwise. That proiperty of a laminayou loose when the plies are not well glued. Good flex but at the sametime stable is an objektive quality for a tabletennisblade.

But for a defensive blade the problem is to get it slow, more flex and dynamic is not always controlled enough.

It,s more difficult to build a defensive blade that's solid enough then an off+ one if the way you make it makes every build faster and more lively.
Using different gluing (and stable veneers also) with the for mentioned adaptations that come with it the design has become almost worthless only for some very specific but more or less limited styles.
The toxic series of lkt also uses the idea like this other defensive blades still use it to a certain degree. But the process and materials limits how far you can go.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 6:45pm
@tompy
I see you devoted much time to how laminated wood working. Thanks for sharing. Now maybe it is getting more and more clear why building a racket does not mean taking a good shape and glue together veneers thats name sounds good, put a handle on it and go to play. All the components and processes takes effect to each other. So its not easy to change something or it is rather impossible to change only one thing in its own. eg. that is one of the reason why opt manufacturers making 7ply offensive instead of 5ply with thicker core for achieving a certain aim.

Stiga in the late 70's moved to their bigger factory. The main reason was development of their table tennis production. They increased their production with switching some of their processes to machine made. That was a bigger place that cannot be heated so much that they could the last workroom. For these reason they had to change glue for laminating to meet the new environment. And in our opinion that was one of the the reason that there are no many famous rackets produced from the 80's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/07/2010 at 7:19pm
Here you are some points from 2006 Senior World Cup 40y Final Alan Cook vs Peter Aranyosi
He played there with his 5.6 original Ehrlich.
It doesnt seem defensive LOL nor all minus Wink




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