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Ma Long's technique

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    Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:41am
Just found this gem!

http://www.bokett.com/tt/dispbbs.asp?boardid=960&id=340563

It includes

1) Ma Long's FH loop-kill against underspin

2) Ma Long's FH loop against half-long serves

3) Ma Long's FH mid-distance counterloop

4) Ma Long's over the table sidespin BH flick

5) Ma Long's traditional BH flick, starting with a fake "push" motion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:07am
Pure gold!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rookies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:10am
Thank you very much!Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:38am
Super awesome pics. Now I just need to learn how to read Chinese so I can understand the details. (Or is that Japanese?) Maybe I first need to learn to distinguish between the two...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skstv2010 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 1:51am
Chinese haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_haru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 2:09am
His weakness is his backhand at middle and middle far table ... Switching to his forehand ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote enky4u Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 3:39am
can you translate it to english?

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustyfo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:18am
awesome, anyone translating this to English would be my personal hero!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:25am
From these pictures seems that he has a pretty much backhand oriented grip. I didn't noticed that till now.

As it was said he is more like a new Kong than a new Liqin.


Edited by vali - 01/06/2011 at 4:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:42am
Woow, this is great, can someone translate pictures?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vassily Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:10am
Nice pics!

I thought Zhang Jike was the new Kong with his BH grip and his crab stance. But I saw in an interview that ZJ personally likes to hit the ball really hard, and they have to keep trying to get him to chill out a bit...

Ma Long is more willing to let the opponent start attacking first, so I suppose in that sense he is more Kong-like.

So it looks like everyone is Kong?

That loop against half-long serves is interesting. Most people tend to go flatter and the shot seems way easier to do with sticky chinese rubber compared to less sticky euro stuff.


Edited by Vassily - 01/06/2011 at 6:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by vali vali wrote:

From these pictures seems that he has a pretty much backhand oriented grip. I didn't noticed that till now.

As it was said he is more like a new Kong than a new Liqin.


No offense, but I think he has neutral grip.  The one who has backhand oriented grip is Zhang Jike.  That is why Ma Long is not as strong in his backhand as Zhang Jike.  But again, his forehand is better than Zhang Jike.  It's just my observation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Just found this gem!

http://www.bokett.com/tt/dispbbs.asp?boardid=960&id=340563

It includes

1) Ma Long's FH loop-kill against underspin

2) Ma Long's FH loop against half-long serves

3) Ma Long's FH mid-distance counterloop

4) Ma Long's over the table sidespin BH flick

5) Ma Long's traditional BH flick, starting with a fake "push" motion.


It is truly a gem.  I just need to learn Chinese to know the details.  It helps to look at the pictures but it would be greatly helpful if someone can translate in English.

But thanks for the post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_haru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by FireHorse FireHorse wrote:

Originally posted by vali vali wrote:

From these pictures seems that he has a pretty much backhand oriented grip. I didn't noticed that till now.

As it was said he is more like a new Kong than a new Liqin.


No offense, but I think he has neutral grip.  The one who has backhand oriented grip is Zhang Jike.  That is why Ma Long is not as strong in his backhand as Zhang Jike.  But again, his forehand is better than Zhang Jike.  It's just my observation.
You are right, his strength is at his FH but his backhand weakness is more towards middle/middle far table. His strength in FH and he used it to compensate for his weakness. So after transition from BH, he will focus on his FH attack...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fructu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 4:18pm
Just amazing, thanks a lotThumbs Up!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pipigrande Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 5:04pm
Simply looking at Ma Long, you would think his FH is better than BH.

Chinese commentators and coaches have said in the past that Ma Long's BH is not his weakness but it is even better than his FH. I'm too lazy to look up the references, so if anyone remember them feel free to post them.

Oh and btw you can't say Long's FH is not as 'strong' as Jikes. Are you talking about power? Consistency? Spin? Placement? ... Ma long FH has something that Jikes doesn't and viceversa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:01pm
To watch Ma long's bh, the 2 last points from 10-10 in the last set to win wang hao in the Asian games.
 
Ma Long's bh is quite good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_haru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:10pm
It is mentioned in the link posted above. Furthermore, knowing his weakness, he will take the initiative to attack during the first 3 strokes as a way to suppress his opponent and at the fourth stroke, he is able to turn from defensive to offensive using some high difficulty technique to counter-loop and gain the initiative. Basically, he like to take the initiative to be the first to attack so that he can control the match. That's his style. Also the link only mention about his weakness at mid and mid-far table for his BH. So his BH and near table is still pretty formidable ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnny89atc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:16pm
Very nice, thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:44pm
When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower,  the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_haru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:49pm
Okay and I m just able to encourage those who understand chinese to help-out in translating the stuff to benefit other shakehand users. It will feel like a wasted effort right? Anyway, what you said is true as well, 'emulate' the top player doesn't make one a top player ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by TT_haru TT_haru wrote:

Okay and I m just able to encourage those who understand chinese to help-out in translating the stuff to benefit other shakehand users. It will feel like a wasted effort right? Anyway, what you said is true as well, 'emulate' the top player doesn't make one a top player ...
 no, emulate, but please prepare your pupils to concentrate on more important things if they are to be successful. The problem is? what is success? Play for USA? Play for China? or just be a local TT star.
 Local TT stars are good, they are actually brilliant, they can propell young people into a world of positive thinking and worth. They can put on their CV that they are US state TT champion at TT, TT may be a minor sport, but being state Champion carries a level of respect in any capacity, surely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PongPong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:33pm
Usually Chinese handshake players use BH close to the table, unable to counter loop from distance using BH but Ma Long can do quality BH counter loops sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hclnnkhg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:41pm
First picture is a description about Ma Long's style(which I am not really concerned aboutTongue) but I translated it with simple English anyway:

Ma Long, the latest men-single winner in Asian games,
has beaten lots of top players in the world. Characteristic of his
game is obvious - very good at initiating attack, fast and firece,
consistent and powerful when he is attacking and counter-attacking
from close to mid table. His footwork is reasonable in mid-table,
also his forehand loop has good arc, speed, power, placement, which
make his technique structure complete.

His backhand from mid to far away from table is relatively weak,
therefore, Ma Long always tries to use forehand to attack after
playing passively on backhand. Furthermore, to avoid his own
weakness, he will initate attack on 3rd ball to put pressure on
opponent, and he will counterloop the 4th ball when receiving.
We can say that Ma Long's offensive mind leads to his active style,
and his forehand has made up for his weaker backhand to an extent.
His backhand is a threat when playing close to the table. Ma Long's
"All-round" offensive technique is a nightmare of every player.

I will keep translating the rest before I fall asleepWink (0044 in UK!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower,  the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play.

You cannot win on only service or touch. Strokes are very important. If you do not have any strokes, you will surely lose the game. A player with simple service and excellent strokes are much better than a player without any strokes. The player without good strokes will make errors on returning long services and the other player will be free to attack. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by hclnnkhg hclnnkhg wrote:

First picture is a description about Ma Long's style(which I am not really concerned aboutTongue) but I translated it with simple English anyway:

Ma Long, the latest men-single winner in Asian games,
has beaten lots of top players in the world. Characteristic of his
game is obvious - very good at initiating attack, fast and firece,
consistent and powerful when he is attacking and counter-attacking
from close to mid table. His footwork is reasonable in mid-table,
also his forehand loop has good arc, speed, power, placement, which
make his technique structure complete.

His backhand from mid to far away from table is relatively weak,
therefore, Ma Long always tries to use forehand to attack after
playing passively on backhand. Furthermore, to avoid his own
weakness, he will initate attack on 3rd ball to put pressure on
opponent, and he will counterloop the 4th ball when receiving.
We can say that Ma Long's offensive mind leads to his active style,
and his forehand has made up for his weaker backhand to an extent.
His backhand is a threat when playing close to the table. Ma Long's
"All-round" offensive technique is a nightmare of every player.

I will keep translating the rest before I fall asleepWink (0044 in UK!)


Awesome, and thank you. I, and others I'm sure, are very grateful for whatever efforts you can put into translation. Clap


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hclnnkhg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

Originally posted by hclnnkhg hclnnkhg wrote:

First picture is a description about Ma Long's style(which I am not really concerned aboutTongue) but I translated it with simple English anyway:

Ma Long, the latest men-single winner in Asian games,
has beaten lots of top players in the world. Characteristic of his
game is obvious - very good at initiating attack, fast and firece,
consistent and powerful when he is attacking and counter-attacking
from close to mid table. His footwork is reasonable in mid-table,
also his forehand loop has good arc, speed, power, placement, which
make his technique structure complete.

His backhand from mid to far away from table is relatively weak,
therefore, Ma Long always tries to use forehand to attack after
playing passively on backhand. Furthermore, to avoid his own
weakness, he will initate attack on 3rd ball to put pressure on
opponent, and he will counterloop the 4th ball when receiving.
We can say that Ma Long's offensive mind leads to his active style,
and his forehand has made up for his weaker backhand to an extent.
His backhand is a threat when playing close to the table. Ma Long's
"All-round" offensive technique is a nightmare of every player.

I will keep translating the rest before I fall asleepWink (0044 in UK!)


Awesome, and thank you. I, and others I'm sure, are very grateful for whatever efforts you can put into translation. Clap




Thank you for your appreciation. Here is the first introduced technique:

Ma Long's forehand powerlooping backspin

(Top yellow box)

Powerlooping backspin is the most common attacking method, and it is
one of the most powerful forehand technique. As it is powerloop, the
advantage of power must be emphasised; pratically, the arc should be
low, the ball should have decent amount of topspin, and with flexible
placement, we can achieve maximum output. But many TT-lovers focus
too much on power, the stroke is too big, which desrupt the harmony
between arm and body, leads to decrease in consistency.

When we are powerlooping, we should focus on controlling the arc and
the placement of the ball, then we increase the power if, and only if
we are consistent. On the other hand, although powerlooping is
powerful, recovering is also important. we should control our swing
and ensure body weight is able, so we can recover quickly.

(Caption in Picture 5)

Right foot is pushing the ground, the body starts to lean forward

(Caption in Picture 6)

Close the bat slightly, keep it stable, hit the lower part of the
mid-top of the ball

Forearm is not moving a lot, use your arm primarily

Left foot steps forward using the force generated when body moves
forward

(Caption in Picture 7)

Close the forearm to make the arc shorter

Left foot pushs the floor to stop the body from hitting the table

(Caption in Picture 8)

Waist should turn enough so power of whole body can be used

(White box in bottom-right corner)

(Red text) Footwork is imporant, find the precise hitting point
before you swing, then makes your stroke bigger

(Black text) These picture shows Ma Long doing the stroke. In picture 1,
when Ma Long moved from backhand corner to forehand corner, he kept
his body very low, his legs were bent, and his upper body was leaning
forward. In picture 2, Ma Long back-swinged when his right foot moved.
There are 2 main points: firstly, the step should not be too small or
too big, so he can hit the ball at the most reasonable point; secondly,
don't back-swing too much before the body is at the position, because
the upper-body should be relaxed; Moreover, it would be easier to deal
with a short ball, net ball or edge ball.

Amateur players' biggest problem is their huge swing, it will only
makes the stroke out of control.

In picture 4, Ma Long started to swing faster after he was in the
right position. His arm was fully stretched. His right foot pushed
the floor to make the body move forward. It is crucial to use the
force during the body is moving forward in a powerloop. Amateur
players also use the power from the twist of the waist, sometimes
they jump up when they hit the ball. It will increase the quality of
the stroke, but this motion has a disadvantage: if the coming
ball is not very fast, or it has a short arc, or anticipation is
not precise enough, then we can't use the power of the coming ball,
therefore consistency and effect of powerlooping will decrease
greatly. So, before we do this storke, we should stand a little bit
away from the table, and we should lean forward when we hit the ball.

(Red text) at the hitting moment, hitting it more forward, close your
forearm, control the arc

(Black text) Theoritically, to increase the speed of ball, we need to
increase the forward force. Although lots of amateur players know
that, but they still have prolems in matches. Firstly, does increasing
forward force means more "hitting" Secondly, does the wrist come in
when we powerloop? and thirdly, how much should we close our forearm?
I believe we can find some answers from the motion of Ma Long.

In picture 5, Ma Long's left foot stepped forward, body leaned forward,
using the power when the body moved forward. His bat was close but
not much. In picture 6, his bat angle was stable, hitting the lower
part of the mid-top of the ball. Brushing is essential, as the ball
comes with backspin, we must overcome it. but when we actually do the
stroke, we can feel more hitting than brushing. Because we need to
generate power/speed, therefore hitting more will give better effect.
Also, portion of brushing depends on the height and the spin of the
coming ball. Usually the backspin is not very strong if it is pushed,
so we don't need to brush a lot. Also, we need to hit the ball at its
highest point, with too much brushing, the ball will go over the table.
In picture 5-6, it was obvious that Ma Long was generating a forward
force, in order to increase the power and speed of the ball.

In picture 4, we can see Ma Long's wrist was moving outwards; in
picture 7 and 9, his wrist was moving inwards, this means he used
wrist. As we hit more than brush in a powerloop, wrist movement is
critical for controlling the arc. The movement should not be too big,
but quick in a sudden, to increase the spin of the ball.

In picture 6-8, Ma Long's forearm movement was obvious. It is mainly
for transmitting power from the body to the ball, and controlling the
length of arc. The forearm movement can be separated into two parts:
at the moment of hitting the ball, the movement was limited, he used
mostly his upper arm; just after hitting the ball, the forearm
movement increased, so forward force was reduced, and the arc was
shortened. This is very important when looping close to the table.

Picture 9-10 shows how Ma Long recovered. His left foot pushed the
floor to stop the body from hitting the table; At the same time his
arm relaxed, but he kept his body relatively tight.

I am going to sleep now, this task will take hours! I will continue tomorrowLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT_haru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 8:54pm
Thumbs Up ,understandable. The translation will take hours, not to mention, sometime it is very difficult to find the exact english phrase to explain what was written in Chinese ...

Edited by TT_haru - 01/06/2011 at 8:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

When are you guys just gonna realise that strokes don't make the player, any world class player in the top 100 has the same firepower,  the looped drive winner is just the hammer that knocks the nail in, the best guy in the world is always than man on top form through other reasons, usually because his total touch/ service, and actually total awareness of top TT play has reached a real peak, its nothing to do with his stroke play.


This has absolutely nothing to do with the thread. It's amazing how you, as an assistant moderator can be so discouraging to people who are genuinely trying to contribute to the forum. If you have so much knowledge and wisdom about TT, why not produce something helpful for other members of this forum, like producing tutorials through video/articles? I am genuinely speechless. Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/06/2011 at 11:05pm
hclnnkhg, thanks for all your efforts!
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