|
|
Hard Rubber More Spin? |
Post Reply | Page 123 8> |
Author | ||
wanhao
Super Member Joined: 07/14/2014 Location: south east asia Status: Offline Points: 122 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 11/21/2015 at 7:09am |
|
Use as hard as one can handle it..its like bowling..use as heavier as one can handle it..
|
||
Sponsored Links | ||
HowToPlayChineseLoop
Super Member Joined: 02/06/2012 Location: 0 Status: Offline Points: 266 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
thank you speedplay and roundrobin :)
|
||
Imago
Premier Member Joined: 07/19/2009 Location: Sofia Status: Offline Points: 5897 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
By hard rubber you understand hard topsheet or hard sponge?
|
||
bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
it would be correct for short pips too?
|
||
bbkon
Premier Member Joined: 04/19/2005 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 7260 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
now we know why t05 is so spinny and t05fx doesnt
|
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
DHS Tin ARC 3
Thickness = 2.1mm
Soft = 35 degrees
Medium = 37 degrees
This was a good testing experience. This provided me a good understanding of the soft and medium hard rubbers.
For an average player, the loops are more consistent using "Soft". Relatively, more advanced skill is needed using "Medium" to create good spin. I loop with good spin in using "Soft". For "medium", not all loops have good spin but then relatively there are more speed. Relatively, there is less power for the middle distance shots for "Soft".
I played better using "soft" in doubles. To me, at my level in doubles, placement is more important than power.
Because those are the same brand of rubbers with the same attributes and the difference is only 2 degrees of hardness, adaptation does not take long.
|
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Thanks for the update. Would you mind sharing the thickness and if possible the hardness?
|
||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
To answer the question on the throw difference between the soft rubber and medium hard rubber, I tested using soft Tin Arc 3 on Stiga Ebenholz V and medium hard Tin Arc 3 on HRT Ebenholz V. (Stiga and HRT have similar attributes but Stiga generates more kick to the spin. The feel of the blade is very similar.) My partner and I did not observe any significant difference in the throw between the soft and medium hard rubbers.
|
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
That'd be great. Did you by any chance test the two rubbers on the same blade and on two different blades?
|
||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I think my focus was to attempt to answer the question in this thread so I was focusing on the spin and then detected the lack of speed of the soft rubber. Perhaps when I have a chance I’ll test the throw with the medium hard rubber on my HRT Ebenholz V and soft rubber on Stiga Ebenholz V. |
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
That's an interesting observation. It appears the eyes are more adept at perceiving speed and depth than elevation.
|
||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I was not paying attention to the throw between the medium hard and soft rubbers. Apparently the difference was not significant enough for me to have noticed. |
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Assuming you have them at same thickness, does the difference in hardness have any pronounced effect on throw?
|
||
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The Shakehander,
Actually I agree with you. I am not getting any younger too.
Now that I’ve tried both the medium hard and soft rubber of the same kind, I am actually torn between medium hard and soft. I like the power loop when I use the hard medium but I also like the easy to use soft rubber near or on top of the table. I can definitely see the advantage of medium hard rubber. I think I lost one match last night because of the lack of power of the soft rubber. I’ve also found that soft rubber to be more suitable for me for the doubles game last night. |
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
The Shakehander
Gold Member Joined: 09/24/2008 Status: Offline Points: 1517 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Loop40mm you missed one and i mean no disrespect to anyone but it's very true.
When you're old even with X-years of competitive experience soft sponge keeps you in the game at the table, medium hard sponge if at the table is now mid distance basically *again no disrespect as i am in that catergory* "Old farts"
Edited by The Shakehander - 11/13/2012 at 12:01pm |
||
Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Last Friday I read through 7 pages of this thread “Hard Rubber More Spin?” The reason I looked up this thread is that I’ve been using medium hard rubber of DHS Tin Arc 3 for a year and inadvertently I have a piece of soft rubber of the same kind. I gained some knowledge and experience from using the two different degrees of hardness of the same kind of rubber. After reading this thread, and after playing with the two kinds of soft/hard rubbers, here are some key points from the thread and from my experience. They are not new to many of you but I’d like to list them here.
Conclusion: Medium hard rubber can generate that power loop better than soft rubber. Soft rubber produces the feeling of a lot of spin but less speed. With a simple stroke close to the table, soft rubber produces more spin. For a power loop, which one has more spin? I don’t know. I am inclined to say the soft rubber has more spin. The medium hard rubber produces that additional kick(speed) to the spin and thus a more powerful loop. |
||
Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
||
mercuur
Super Member Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Dwelltime is not only from hardness of the sponge. Ever used a 729 fx blue sponge or something like that ? The lack of resilience/quickness as a downside offers a good dwelltime as an upside for spin (much less for flathits offcourse) compared with other sponges in same hardness. All the heavy chinese sponges meant for fh are designed to offer long dwelltime.
Advantage is that a minimal tangential motion to the ball allready starts to tension the pimples of the topsheet. Tangential to the blade the hardness of the sponge funtions as pre-tension for the topsheet(pimples) while the sponge stays thick and offers more momentum / leverage due to more distance between topsheet and blade. A soft sponge rubber the sponge gets thinner during ballcontact and the effective - dynamic - thickness is a lot less. This thickness means that even if the sponge is harder the topsheet can still stretch/move tangential to the blade more then when it thins out because the distance between the ball and the wood stays bigger. The longer bow shoots further idea. But thickness of the rubberbase on the topsheet also makes much diference maybe because of similar reason. Comparing inspirit quattro UL with Inspirit quattro standard there is a huge difference in spinabbillity. More spin with the standard version especially for fh because of the more powerfull stroke. Less penetration into the sponge making the sponge thinner and better use of the elasticity of solid topsheetrubber instead of - less elastic - spongerubber. With tuner the sponge of such a rubber becomes softer but also the pores of the rubber become more closed when the spongematerial takes the tuning substance in. This increases the resistance against compression or compensates the softness similar as inflating a tire or balloon does. The resitance against tangential motion of the topsheet to the blade is not so much limited by this and the softness prevales for that. More speed more spin thus but different then from a less dense sponge. Edited by mercuur - 04/22/2011 at 2:28am |
||
bluebucket
Platinum Member Joined: 02/20/2011 Location: 16 Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Don't forget how the pimple size and spacing effects the way a rubber plays and the way it reaches it's limits. T05, T64, T25. Red Diamond/Black Power. H3 and H2 are all identical rubbers with identical sponges other than that but all play much different to their siblings in just about every way
|
||
racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Can someone with a background in dynamics, mechanics of materials, and material science enlighten us on the following:
The premise for all questions and assumptions that follow is that all relevant parameters of the incoming ball, the swing, and the blade are kept constant. 1. What parameters do we need to describe fully and predict the behavior of a rubber? Are the following sufficient:
3. Can we boil down the variables that ultimately determine the amount of spin produced to the following:
5. Which variables in Question 3 are coupled? 6. Qualitatively, how are the variables in Question 3 functions of the parameters in Question 1? 7. Once the sponge bottoms out, how, qualitatively, are the variables in Question 3 affected? Are these questions valid? Does predicting the behavior of a rubber need to be this involved or is there a simplification, like a rule of thumb? If not, perhaps all the previous discussions/arguments have been in vain, as it's likely there are few, if any, on this forum who can correctly answer these questions. |
||
pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
How can that be? The harder the rubber the faster ( less time ) the ball will have to stop because it doesn't penetrate as far. Now the harder rubber must accelerate the ball to the same speed as a softer rubber but do it in a shorter distance. Again the acceleration of the harder rubber must be faster and take less time because it has less distance to accelerate in. |
||
mercuur
Super Member Joined: 01/06/2004 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
QUOTE=gatorling]This is my take on this entire subject.
The biggest difference between a hard rubber and a soft rubber is dwell time - and that's pretty much it. Don't forget we're comparing hard vs soft, not tacky vs grippy, or tensioned vs non tensioned. [/QUOTE] Not comparing dwelltime either. A hard sponge hurricane has more dwelltime then many softer sponge rubbers. Many chinese customers start with a topsheet and a blade then choose the sponge for dwelltime and hardness to match. With a more resillient sponge and a less resillient sponge both same hardness the more resillient sponge has less dwell. In practice you do this for other purposes then only the most spin but one could do it for spin also. Then for a chinese topsheet I think I would opt for a harder sponge but with offering some good dwelltime (meaning a slower sponge). But I could start testing different hardness for different types of sponge with different resilience with same blade and topsheet. For the different types no doubt I find different hardness for the sponge as optimal but for each type an optimal hardness. Then I have the spongetypes tuned for spin and harder or softer I will loose spin. Then I can look between the two types of sponge. The more resilient softer sponge maybe offers more spin but I also compared different resilience then. I,m pretty sure for many strokes the less resilient sponge has more spin though. The topsheet is sorta tensioned more by the hardness of the sponge and my experience is that I can manage much more spin then. The viscosity of the tacky topsheets becomes negative when the deformation is to much but also when the dwell is to short due to high resilience technical it doesn,t work out for my technicque. |
||
pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Why can you swing much faster with hard rubbers that soft rubbers? I contend that if you are going for maximum spin you will simply brush the ball and not bottom out the rubber. Barely brushing the ball will result in the highest paddle speed tangential to the ball and the most spin. Edited by pnachtwey - 04/21/2011 at 5:05pm |
||
TheRobot99
Silver Member Joined: 10/21/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 915 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
|
||
Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias
Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38 PTTC VP - 2011-12 |
||
king_pong
Silver Member Joined: 06/29/2010 Location: Minneapolis Status: Offline Points: 871 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
+1 Couldn't have said it better myself. That's gospel. |
||
roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
More control if you play a high speed game, yes. Soft rubbers tend to "bottom out" during hard exchanges and actually lose some control. |
||
hookumsnivy
Gold Member Joined: 11/04/2010 Location: Syracuse, NY Status: Offline Points: 1599 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I've never heard anyone say hard rubbers offer much more control. More speed and spin make sense to me, but soft rubbers definitely have more control.
|
||
gatorling
Super Member Joined: 06/09/2010 Location: Florida, USA Status: Offline Points: 381 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
This is my take on this entire subject.
The biggest difference between a hard rubber and a soft rubber is dwell time - and that's pretty much it. Don't forget we're comparing hard vs soft, not tacky vs grippy, or tensioned vs non tensioned. When talking about spin shots like a loop or top spin: Hard rubber would require a brushing stroke with fast paddle speed. A stroke that drives the ball into the sponge will not work well. The ball will slightly sink into the sponge and then pop out before much spin can be generated. When talking about generating spin you typically want the ball to make NON-SLIPPING contact with the rubber for as long as possible at the highest possible speed. Since a ball will not sink into a hard rubber a very tacky top sheet is used to prevent the ball from slipping. The end result is a very linear ball speed - you get what you put into your stroke. The sponge does not engage much so the speed curve looks more like a line and less like a geometric function. Soft rubber - since the ball can sink deeper into the sponge and stay there for longer you can hit more with your strokes. You are depending on the force of the ball exerted against the rubber + the slight increase of contact area to prevent the ball from slipping. This will make it easier for you to have less perfect technique as you do not have to perfectly brush the ball everytime you want to create spin. So which has more spin? I would say hard rubbers - I simply think you can really open up and swing much faster and the faster your bat speed the more RPM the ball achieves. Another noteworth benefit of hard rubbers is that it would be easier to generate spin with pushes. Even with a soft sponge, you try to brush when you push - and in this case the hard rubber would dominate (not to mention that it'll be easier to drop shots with a hard rubber.) All in all - I think hard rubbers offer much more control and possibly offer more spin than soft rubbers. But this is all assuming that you are a very high level player and I say that 80% of the players out there should just stick with soft rubbers. If you're just starting out I would recommend Dawei Inspirits - they cost just $12 a top sheet and will be more than sufficient until you reach a 1500-1600 USATT rating level. All of this is coming from someone who can't handle hard rubbers. I use 2.0PME FH, 2.0 Inspirit Quattro UL on my BH (planning on switching it so the faster rubber is on my BH). |
||
seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yeah, Ma Long probably needs a harder rubber than mine to maximize spin. :) I wonder though if the rubbers used by chinese pros, after taking into account the softening produced by boosters, are really harder than 41 deg. |
||
pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
|
||
viktorovich
Super Member Joined: 04/08/2009 Status: Offline Points: 294 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
@seguso
It at your speed of movement of a racket.
|
||
TheRobot99
Silver Member Joined: 10/21/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 915 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
This is a bit off topic, but one reason Thor's is so difficult to block because of the total momentum on the ball: linear and angular. It's not too hard to deal with a fast ball (linear) or a medium speed ball with fairly heavy spin. Dealing with a full body shot from Thor's is what is a killer. Those loops are low, fast, and loaded with spin. I'd have to say part of it is the soft grippy/tacky topsheet for the spin and the sponge for the spin. The other reason Thor's is a pain to play against is the trajectory of it's loops. Some opening loops I've done were still on the rise half a foot from the end of the table only to have the topspin drop the ball on the baseline. Very few people expect it to hit the table (including me thinking I've missed the table lol). Other times (even when the loop is just over the net) the spin on the ball causes to bounce lower than what is expected. Only try Thor's if you're looking to be highly aggressive on a particular wing. To be back on topic, very nice post seguso. I liked the range on sponge hardness. I think a softer blade would allow for a harder sponge to be used. Edited by TheRobot99 - 04/19/2011 at 4:55am |
||
Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias
Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38 PTTC VP - 2011-12 |
||
Post Reply | Page 123 8> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |