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1952 Invention of Sponge

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by sweetstrike sweetstrike wrote:

I'm just wondering if the 4.0 mm total thickness rule and the no sponge-only rule were not enacted, what would the equipment industry look like today? Maybe we will have 1 cm thick tensor sponges without topsheet. Imagine the diversity in the game.


I don't think that you have thought this thru.

Diversity of materials in no way Encourages growth of the tnumber of players.

If anything, the diversity of modern equipment acts as a barrier to new players. In my time playing tt witnessed loads of players fail to successfully transition groom basement to club.

The diversity of modern equipment directly influences the range and type of spins that players must learn to cope with... Greater diversity increases the learning curve and actually marginalizes the sport from would be players.

I recently played against an aspiring defender. Using anALL+ paddle and control rubbers I was forced to loop four to five times to win the point, it was grueling but fun. The next match, I used my virtuoso and H3 and could suddenly hit through him and create loops with enough soon to cause errors from his game.

Imagine if the H3 were tuned... More diversity...

For defenders to be viable, and the sport to
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 4:37pm
continued....

Grow, we would be better served by my strict equipment rules that reduce the material diversity...

If an easier transition were available for basement to club play the sport would grow faster.

Unlike regular tennis where oversize rackets and longer necks and composites all combined to make recreational play easier, many of the manufacturers' "advancements"have done little to make play easier*




*there have been some commercially unsuccessful tubers like joola ICU that make play easier.

Round robin it's right that hardbat + sandpaper splits that potential playerbase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 5:19pm
This 'documentary' is racist too.  How about a mention of Koji or Joo when they're crying about the lack of rallies...and why does a 'Western' player need to beat the Chinese for a sport to be good?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

this full documentary is a propaganda piece about how sponge ruined the tt game....

...it's basically an hour of marty reisman crying about how 'he was the best player who's ever played the game' but will never get that credit because sponge came out and 'over athleticized' the sport

....reisman actually says in the documentary (i'm paraphrasing but only slightly), "the sponge allowed the less talented players to rise to the top while the ultra talented hardbat champions were eliminated from competition altogether"


EDIT

I also forgot to mention that reisman says, 'he was so amazing with a sponged rubber that it just wasn't fun to play with it because he was too good'.

That guy is a huge asshole.  I'm glad sponge came out when it did so he never got a chance to be the best player in the world - he's only a legend in his own mind.


I agree with this completely. I am old enough that as a junior I had to listen to a pile of old guys complain about how sponge ruined their game, usually after I had beaten them.  I am also old enough to also have played Houshang Bazorgzadeh a number of times when he was good and so know that a really good hardbat player was nothing other than a really good player, period.  He didn't complain about playing against inverted and could tear through lots of people in the top echelons of North American table tennis (and before that in the world).  He could attack very effectively.  Other than him, most of those old guys couldn't move at all so it's no wonder they couldn't cope. This was at a time when the fastest thing available in the US was my old Alser blade with Mark V.  Of course, a lot of those old guys (then) are younger than I am now.   I can still move (well at least compared to what they could do) because that's the what you have to do to play our SPORT now, so I do what it takes to stay mobile.  It ain't bowling.  At a certain point you have to take off weight, go to the gym, etc.

And yes, Marty Reisman was a complete jerk when you saw him first hand.  Also, when you think about it, how devastating could a simple piece of sponge have been from a purely equipment point of view?  The Japanese guy was world champion because he was good.





Edited by Baal - 12/10/2011 at 6:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 7:02pm
I also wonder how Deng Yaping would feel about doing those interviews if she had known the documentary would be based on winning because of an equipment advantage and not on skill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 9:02pm
Quote from Boggan's History of US Table Tennis

Said our own Pauline Robinson, holding her nose, as it were:

“…you should have seen the reaction of the spectators…when the horrible sponge against sponge, Flisberg and Ogimura, match was played. The entire match lasted 18 minutes for four games, including the five-minute rest, and was strictly a serve-and-hit-one-ball-for-the-point game. Sponge against regular rubber is bad enough, but sponge against sponge!!! UGH! That’s what will happen if it isn’t banned…” (Newsletter, Apr., 1955).



UGH, indeed - what a horrible sport our table tennis is nowadays... Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2011 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Quote from Boggan's History of US Table Tennis

Said our own Pauline Robinson, holding her nose, as it were:

“…you should have seen the reaction of the spectators…when the horrible sponge against sponge, Flisberg and Ogimura, match was played. The entire match lasted 18 minutes for four games, including the five-minute rest, and was strictly a serve-and-hit-one-ball-for-the-point game. Sponge against regular rubber is bad enough, but sponge against sponge!!! UGH! That’s what will happen if it isn’t banned…” (Newsletter, Apr., 1955).



UGH, indeed - what a horrible sport our table tennis is nowadays... Wink


Well, she's pretty accurate on the modern 3rd ball attacks. I wonder what she'd say about all the crazy looping, though.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ikaros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 12:01am

I play table tennis and harbat from time to time and my humble opinion is that table tennis needs so much more skill trying to figuring spins. you need more athleticism, better technique ,timing,body balance,hardcore training you have to be fit to reach higher level and above all that you have to be mentally strong to defeat your opponent. I'm not trying to disrespect harbat or anything like that I'm just saying that the way we play now is totally diferent as it was played back then.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 12:23am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Quote from Boggan's History of US Table Tennis

Said our own Pauline Robinson, holding her nose, as it were:

“…you should have seen the reaction of the spectators…when the horrible sponge against sponge, Flisberg and Ogimura, match was played. The entire match lasted 18 minutes for four games, including the five-minute rest, and was strictly a serve-and-hit-one-ball-for-the-point game. Sponge against regular rubber is bad enough, but sponge against sponge!!! UGH! That’s what will happen if it isn’t banned…” (Newsletter, Apr., 1955).



UGH, indeed - what a horrible sport our table tennis is nowadays... Wink

if they would have had adham  they would jump off the roof
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 12:32am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Quote from Boggan's History of US Table Tennis

Said our own Pauline Robinson, holding her nose, as it were:

“…you should have seen the reaction of the spectators…when the horrible sponge against sponge, Flisberg and Ogimura, match was played. The entire match lasted 18 minutes for four games, including the five-minute rest, and was strictly a serve-and-hit-one-ball-for-the-point game. Sponge against regular rubber is bad enough, but sponge against sponge!!! UGH! That’s what will happen if it isn’t banned…” (Newsletter, Apr., 1955).



UGH, indeed - what a horrible sport our table tennis is nowadays... Wink


So in 55 years since this was written, all of the coaching, development, training and fitness improvements mean that rallies now last, on average, a whopping 1 to 2 more balls than they did at the advent of sponge.

Isn't progress wonderful? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 1:22am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Quote from Boggan's History of US Table Tennis

Said our own Pauline Robinson, holding her nose, as it were:

“…you should have seen the reaction of the spectators…when the horrible sponge against sponge, Flisberg and Ogimura, match was played. The entire match lasted 18 minutes for four games, including the five-minute rest, and was strictly a serve-and-hit-one-ball-for-the-point game. Sponge against regular rubber is bad enough, but sponge against sponge!!! UGH! That’s what will happen if it isn’t banned…” (Newsletter, Apr., 1955).



UGH, indeed - what a horrible sport our table tennis is nowadays... Wink


So in 55 years since this was written, all of the coaching, development, training and fitness improvements mean that rallies now last, on average, a whopping 1 to 2 more balls than they did at the advent of sponge.

Isn't progress wonderful? Wink


I want to see the average length of Joo Se Hyuk's rallies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 1:58am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:


I want to see the average length of Joo Se Hyuk's rallies.


And how many top players are choppers?

Once Joo switches to attack mode, the point ends pretty quickly - one way or the other.


Edited by wturber - 12/11/2011 at 2:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 2:08am
Originally posted by ikaros ikaros wrote:

I play table tennis and harbat from time to time and my humble opinion is that table tennis needs so much more skill trying to figuring spins. you need more athleticism, better technique ,timing,body balance,hardcore training you have to be fit to reach higher level and above all that you have to be mentally strong to defeat your opponent. I'm not trying to disrespect harbat or anything like that I'm just saying that the way we play now is totally diferent as it was played back then.



Hardbat today would almost surely not be played like hardbat in the '50s.  Basketball, football, tennis, even track and field looks different than it did over 50 years ago.  Hardbat would be no different. 

This topic gets debated from time to time and there is no answer because there are no modern, elite hardbat players who have committed ten or more years of their lives from when they were pre-teen until they were young adults trying to become the best possible hardbat players in the world.  We have no concrete examples for comparison.  We can only make our best reasonable estimates and those estimates are typically significantly biased by our own limited experiences.

My personal opinion is that modern hardbat would be tremendously demanding from a physical standpoint - and probably especially in terms of stamina.  I don't play hardbat from time to time, I play it all the time. I think it's been two and a half years since I went full-time hardbat.  From where I sit, I have to be more fit, more athletic and more multi-dimensional in my play than the sponge-wielding competitors whom I play against.  I need to be able to attack close and far, to block effectively, to chop, and to be able to switch from offense to defense and back quickly as even when I'm able to launch a strong attack, a well placed racket at the right angle is pretty much all that is needed to send my attack back at me with lots of pace and topspin.  I can counterloop against sponge for a stroke or two.  But this is ultimately a losing matchup with hardbat against sponge and if the rally goes beyond two or so counterloops, I typically have to switch to defense and hope to regain the initiative.  This kind of need to more frequently have to "switch gears" is what makes hardbat more fun IMO.  I think it also would ultimately make it more fun to watch when played at a high level.




Edited by wturber - 12/11/2011 at 2:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 2:57am
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by ikaros ikaros wrote:

I play table tennis and harbat from time to time and my humble opinion is that table tennis needs so much more skill trying to figuring spins. you need more athleticism, better technique ,timing,body balance,hardcore training you have to be fit to reach higher level and above all that you have to be mentally strong to defeat your opponent. I'm not trying to disrespect harbat or anything like that I'm just saying that the way we play now is totally diferent as it was played back then.



Hardbat today would almost surely not be played like hardbat in the '50s.  Basketball, football, tennis, even track and field looks different than it did over 50 years ago.  Hardbat would be no different. 

This topic gets debated from time to time and there is no answer because there are no modern, elite hardbat players who have committed ten or more years of their lives from when they were pre-teen until they were young adults trying to become the best possible hardbat players in the world.  We have no concrete examples for comparison.  We can only make our best reasonable estimates and those estimates are typically significantly biased by our own limited experiences.

My personal opinion is that modern hardbat would be tremendously demanding from a physical standpoint - and probably especially in terms of stamina.  I don't play hardbat from time to time, I play it all the time. I think it's been two and a half years since I went full-time hardbat.  From where I sit, I have to be more fit, more athletic and more multi-dimensional in my play than the sponge-wielding competitors whom I play against.  I need to be able to attack close and far, to block effectively, to chop, and to be able to switch from offense to defense and back quickly as even when I'm able to launch a strong attack, a well placed racket at the right angle is pretty much all that is needed to send my attack back at me with lots of pace and topspin.  I can counterloop against sponge for a stroke or two.  But this is ultimately a losing matchup with hardbat against sponge and if the rally goes beyond two or so counterloops, I typically have to switch to defense and hope to regain the initiative.  This kind of need to more frequently have to "switch gears" is what makes hardbat more fun IMO.  I think it also would ultimately make it more fun to watch when played at a high level.




My feeling is a true world-class hardbat player today (men's top 20 level) will have to be faster with superior footwork and physical conditioning than his top-20 peers.  The reason is he will have no choice but chop the ball on the drop, because of the hardbat's lack of proper energy absorption.  This will force the hardbat player to move away from the table faster than regular choppers to get into position to contain top-20 players' 3rd ball attacks... And the even harder part is once this player was able to chop the ball back successfully from far back, he will be at mercy of his opponent's skills in the forms of well-placed drop shots and more Thor's Hammer forehands from the likes of Ma Long, Ma Lin and Wang Liqin. 

A match between two top-20 hardbatters will look remarkably similar to that between Joo Se Hyuk and Wang Xi, imho:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oICkn7Ws2pI


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 9:39am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:


I want to see the average length of Joo Se Hyuk's rallies.


In the top 10,000 players, I would suspect that for every Joo there are at least 99 attackers.

As much as I like Joo's play, the 1% does not represent the sport.

So if you have the time, please compare the closest match from the Baltimore videos (semis? 3-2?) , and count average length of rally (strokes) and overall length of match and confirm that my wry comment was accurate.

I'm guessing somewhere between 3-4 strokes including the serve.

p.s. thanks for the Joo/Xi match, I forgot how much I enjoyed that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 11:56am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Originally posted by roar roar wrote:


I want to see the average length of Joo Se Hyuk's rallies.


In the top 10,000 players, I would suspect that for every Joo there are at least 99 attackers.

As much as I like Joo's play, the 1% does not represent the sport.

So if you have the time, please compare the closest match from the Baltimore videos (semis? 3-2?) , and count average length of rally (strokes) and overall length of match and confirm that my wry comment was accurate.

I'm guessing somewhere between 3-4 strokes including the serve.

p.s. thanks for the Joo/Xi match, I forgot how much I enjoyed that.

I'm not sure that hardbat rallies are any longer. It's not just inverted rubbers that have caused shorter rallies. The modern game is a lot more aggressive and athletic.

Count the number of strokes here:



or here:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 1:46pm
Is modern hardhat played like that because these players have grown up with sponge and modern third balk mentality?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:



So in 55 years since this was written, all of the coaching, development, training and fitness improvements mean that rallies now last, on average, a whopping 1 to 2 more balls than they did at the advent of sponge.

Isn't progress wonderful? Wink


Yes, the rallies are at least 50% longer now Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Is modern hardhat played like that because these players have grown up with sponge and modern third balk mentality?


Or they're just playing in a way that helps them win?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:

Is modern hardhat played like that because these players have grown up with sponge and modern third balk mentality?


Or they're just playing in a way that helps them win?

Exactly. I think a lot of the nostalgia for the classic hardbat game is focused too much on the "hardbat" aspect and ignores the "classic" aspect. 

In other words, modern table tennis favors aggressive, athletic play regardless what you put on your blade. Even if sponge rubber had never been approved, these players are using strokes more effective than what you saw six decades ago - strokes that favor a shorter rally.

That's not to say that playing hardbat doesn't have its own benefits, but to suggest that all of the ills of the modern game is due to sponge rubber is a mistake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 3:24pm
I was making the point that they're comparing a defensive player to an aggressive player in the hardbat era and then comparing two aggressive players in the modern era.  If you want to be fair, you should compare to the defensive players of the day or compare aggressive players from both eras.

I'll bet two aggressive players back in the day had short rallies as well, defensive was just more prevalent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 5:52pm
Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

 

I'm not sure that hardbat rallies are any longer. It's not just inverted rubbers that have caused shorter rallies. The modern game is a lot more aggressive and athletic.

Count the number of strokes here:


Which of those players is even close to being an elite hardbat player in the same sense as a world top 50 player?  Trevor is a top U.S. Hardbat player, but he spent probably less than 10% of his time training for hardbat.  Noel is a full time hardbat player, but he is merely a very good amateur player.  He isn't even close to being an elite level athlete.

The example really demonstrates very little about how many strokes we'd have if elite players played hardbat.  Take a look at this match.  Ofcourse it doesn't prove that rallies will be long either.  Right now, the length of rallies has more to do with player choice and preference than anything else.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

 

Exactly. I think a lot of the nostalgia for the classic hardbat game is focused too much on the "hardbat" aspect and ignores the "classic" aspect. 

In other words, modern table tennis favors aggressive, athletic play regardless what you put on your blade. Even if sponge rubber had never been approved, these players are using strokes more effective than what you saw six decades ago - strokes that favor a shorter rally.


I agree that the game would be played more athletically and more aggressively.  But the reduced spin would keep the offense from being overpowering.  In fact, it may have been necessary to introduce rubbers with more spin in order to keep balance as defenses became more athletic and better able to run down the hardest drives.

Also, be careful about what you label is more or less effective.  Some of the classic forehands are devastatingly powerful.  That said, I think the strokes would have evolved to include many of the strokes we see in modern sponge play as well.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:


That's not to say that playing hardbat doesn't have its own benefits, but to suggest that all of the ills of the modern game is due to sponge rubber is a mistake.


Well, the claim is that it introduced substantial ills.  It doesn't matter if it was all the ills or not.  Some people have suggested that the optimal balance wouldn't be hardbat, but would be short pips with limited sponge.  Keep in mind that it is the super high amount of spin that inverted can deliver that brought us long pips, anti-spin and combination rackets.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:


I'll bet two aggressive players back in the day had short rallies as well, defensive was just more prevalent.


And that's the point.  The equipment made it possible for defensive play to be on equal or near equal footing.  Today's inverted makes that very difficult and that's the complaint - the vast majority of matches have short points, are dominated by strong topspin and jockeying to avoid strong topspin from your opponent.  Well, that and tricky serves with lots of spin.  That's why you can watch an entire match and only have a handful of interesting rallies and many more one, two or three stroke rallies.

Some people think the serves and the occasional spectacular topspin rallies make it all worth it.  I think it makes the game harder to approach both from a player and viewer standpoint.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 6:40pm

Marty Reisman was favourite in 1952 and lost. He's a proud guy, and like all of us at times, has tried to explain his unexpected loss with whatever excuse is most handy. Repeat it often enough and people will actually believe it.

Sponge was being used even at international level long before the fifties. Prior to 1952 it was on the upsurge in Europe. The Austrian Open was won by a sponge player. The England team had at least one player (Charlie Dawes) who played internationally with sponge in the 1930's. The Europeans lost to a Japanese and signalled the end of European/American domination of the sport. They introduced new styles of play and more importantly, superior coaching methods. Not the backroom amateur stuff that Reisman et al were brought up on. This tournament showed that whatever the US players were doing was now totally irrelevant and they went from the top to the wilderness which they still occupy. The Asians and Japanese takeover of TT I think is what really irks the Europeans. The fact that it occurred at the same time as HB was being overtaken, has given them a ready excuse ever since.

Sponge in the fifties was basically craap and should be ignored as it only lasted until 1959 when the sandwich rubber was authorised. So if you want to talk about modern sponge play, you should start at around 1960 or mid-sixties when it really started to take hold at amateur level.

 

As to modern Hardbat, there still are loads of Chinese PH with pips out and very thin sponge. Ok, the sponge makes a significant difference but take it away and their game would not change significantly, I think. So one can say that Jiang Jialing and his style is what the modern HB PH player would look like.

 I maybe wrong but I think England’s Denis Neale used pips out with very thin sponge and got as high as world top 30 in the 70’s

 

Here he is much later at hardbat. Ok, he's much older and heavier but the style has not changed that much.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Marty Reisman was favourite in 1952 and lost. He's a proud guy, and like all of us at times, has tried to explain his unexpected loss with whatever excuse is most handy. Repeat it often enough and people will actually believe it.

Sponge was being used even at international level long before the fifties. Prior to 1952 it was on the upsurge in Europe. The Austrian Open was won by a sponge player. The England team had at least one player (Charlie Dawes) who played internationally with sponge in the 1930's.

Yes.  I think I mentioned previously in this thread that sponge was not new in 1952.  The main difference was that it was used to win a world championship.  Further, while not new, it was still unusual.

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

The Europeans lost to a Japanese and signalled the end of European/American domination of the sport. They introduced new styles of play and more importantly, superior coaching methods. Not the backroom amateur stuff that Reisman et al were brought up on. This tournament showed that whatever the US players were doing was now totally irrelevant and they went from the top to the wilderness which they still occupy.

I dunno.  I recently finished reading Ogimura's biography and his training was very much backroom self-taught stuff.  In fact, he was going against the Japanese orthodoxy and developed his own 51% philosophy of relentless attack.  Maybe later the Japanese became more systematic. 

Shortly after the 1952 worlds, Bergman and I think Leach toured Japan and routinely routed their top players including Satoh. Things did not turn quite as quickly as you explain.  The fifties were a time of great turmoil with much debate about what equipment should be allowed.[/quote]

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

The Asians and Japanese takeover of TT I think is what really irks the Europeans. The fact that it occurred at the same time as HB was being overtaken, has given them a ready excuse ever since.

Sponge in the fifties was basically craap and should be ignored as it only lasted until 1959 when the sandwich rubber was authorised. So if you want to talk about modern sponge play, you should start at around 1960 or mid-sixties when it really started to take hold at amateur level.

 

I agree.  The sponge that they used might be as thick as 1cm and it is very unclear what this rubber was like.  Maybe it had more spin potential than sandwich?  I don't know.  The 4mm sandwich was considered a compromise between the no-sponge and thick sponge advocates.

Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:


As to modern Hardbat, there still are loads of Chinese PH with pips out and very thin sponge. Ok, the sponge makes a significant difference but take it away and their game would not change significantly, I think. So one can say that Jiang Jialing and his style is what the modern HB PH player would look like.

I maybe wrong but I think England’s Denis Neale used pips out with very thin sponge and got as high as world top 30 in the 70’s


That might be true if he was playing a field of players using equipment like he was using.  I'm quite sure that the fact that I play against inverted most of the time influences my style of play with hardbat. I could be wrong, but I don't think that there are very many pips out Chinese players who are world class these days.

BTW, Reisman won his last U.S. Open playing with short pips with sponge.  My understanding is that this was the last time he played any kind of significant match with sponge.  It is also worth noting that his contemporary Dick Miles switched over to sponge quite successfully.




Edited by wturber - 12/11/2011 at 7:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 7:59pm
Regarding pips out. I was trying to videolise (like that oneSmile) the answer to the question about what a modern world class hardbat playerbwould like. Denis and Jiang were the closest I could get. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 10:03pm
Call me crazy but I suspect that technology in the form of grippy and tacky topsheets sandwiched on a2mm sponge that is loaded with who knows what produces far more spin and speed than 1950s 1 cm pillows.

Either that or the manufacturers have really been pulling our legs about all these advancements ")
The 4mm rule it's a legacy of a time when sponge tech could only do so much within that constraint.


On the subject of diversity, the topspin arms race led us to LPs with funny sponges and pips that have different friction top and side... All with the intent of allowing the user to manipulate spin in a way that's not only counterintuitive to viewers but also the majority of active players.

It's only if sponge was seen a counter to the expedite rule, it looks like the ITTF finally got something right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 11:12pm
Originally posted by wturber wturber wrote:

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

 

Exactly. I think a lot of the nostalgia for the classic hardbat game is focused too much on the "hardbat" aspect and ignores the "classic" aspect. 

In other words, modern table tennis favors aggressive, athletic play regardless what you put on your blade. Even if sponge rubber had never been approved, these players are using strokes more effective than what you saw six decades ago - strokes that favor a shorter rally.


I agree that the game would be played more athletically and more aggressively.  But the reduced spin would keep the offense from being overpowering.  In fact, it may have been necessary to introduce rubbers with more spin in order to keep balance as defenses became more athletic and better able to run down the hardest drives.

Also, be careful about what you label is more or less effective.  Some of the classic forehands are devastatingly powerful.  That said, I think the strokes would have evolved to include many of the strokes we see in modern sponge play as well.


Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

 
That's not to say that playing hardbat doesn't have its own benefits, but to suggest that all of the ills of the modern game is due to sponge rubber is a mistake.


Well, the claim is that it introduced substantial ills.  It doesn't matter if it was all the ills or not.  Some people have suggested that the optimal balance wouldn't be hardbat, but would be short pips with limited sponge.  Keep in mind that it is the super high amount of spin that inverted can deliver that brought us long pips, anti-spin and combination rackets.


I think we're both splitting hairs to a certain extent. Whether "all" or "substantial" ills, I believe that the claim is false. (I also don't mean to claim that classic strokes are "ineffective", but I do find it very difficult to argue that strokes from six decades ago are more effective.)

With hardbat or with limited sponge, I still think the offensive, short rally game would dominate and with such ills as others describe (e.g., "short rallies", "no defensive players", "no fun to watch", etc.)

As you note, spin is a double-edged sword - it's necessary for modern defense. Modern defenders (e.g., Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao, etc.) rely on spin reversal. 

If you think back to the change to the 40mm ball, it actually seemed to hurt defenders. Although the ball moved slower (as with hardbat), the spin also decreased (as with hardbat). As such, I'm not sure the hardbat picture is as rosy for hardbat defenders as many seem to suggest.

This discussion doesn't have to be an exercise in "what-ifs" though. I'm honestly curious - do you have videos of a defensive / long rally hardbat player making it to a finals in a large open event? The video you posted is Seemiller against a friend. I'd be more interested in seeing top, young hardbat players consistently playing longer rallies or winning by playing defensively (i.e., running down these drives).

(Please note that I did not cherry my pick videos - I simply searched on youtube for top hardbat players in the US and posted what I found. After watching more videos, my initial impression is that my videos are pretty representative of the top hardbat game.)



Edited by opinari - 12/11/2011 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/11/2011 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:


In other words, there might be more defenders if hardbat was mandatory, but I still think the offensive, short rally game would dominate and with such ills as others describe (e.g., "short rallies", "no defensive players", "no fun to watch", etc.)


But I think you are missing my main point.  It isn't that there would necessarily be more defenders, it would be that defense would be a more effective strategy.  Rallies would shift back and forth between offense and defense more frequently.  As it is now, once the point goes offensive, it is usually over very quickly.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

As you note, spin is a double-edged sword - it's necessary for modern defense. Modern defenders (e.g., Joo Se Hyuk, Hou Yingchao, etc.) rely on spin reversal.


The vast majority of table tennis shots use spin.  The more spin the offensive player puts into the ball, the more the long pips chopper sends back.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

If you think back to the change to the 40mm ball, it actually seemed to hurt defenders. Although the ball moved slower (as with hardbat), the spin also decreased (as with hardbat). As such, I'm not sure the hardbat picture is as rosy for defenders as many seem to suggest.


The ball doesn't travel that much slower, and while it spins less, that's measured in RPM, not surface speed.  Furthermore, the 40mm ball curves more in the air due to spin.  APW46 regularly insists that the 40mm ball "sits up" more after bouncing making it easier to attack - thus hurting defenders.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

I also don't mean to claim that classic strokes are "ineffective", but my argument was that modern strokes are more effective. I find it very difficult to argue that strokes from six decades ago are better.


In some situations and if you aren't hitting with a sandwich racket, those classic strokes are better.  In other situations, even if playing with hardbat, I think some modern strokes are more effective.  Which is more effective depends on the situation.  I regularly work on both adapting modern strokes to hardbat and also employing the classic strokes because I think both have their places in a modern hardbat game.  There are some people who claim that the modern strokes would not ultimately be the most effective with elite players and that the classic strokes were near optimal for hardbat play.  I disagree with that.  But nobody really knows. 

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

This discussion doesn't have to be an exercise in "what-ifs" though. I'm honestly curious - do you have videos of a defensive / long rally hardbat player making it to a finals in a large open event? The video you posted is Seemiller against a friend. I'd be more interested in seeing top, young hardbat players consistently playing longer rallies or just defensively (i.e., running down these drives).


That video is of Seemiller playing Chance Friend.  "Friend" is his last name.  Like I said previously, there are ZERO elite hardbat players.  Hardbat represents too much of a disadvantage against sponge for anyone to risk spending ten or more years of their life to try to perfect it.  Success at the highest levels is tough enough and low enough in reward without adding the extra burden of having to play hardbat against inverted.

Originally posted by opinari opinari wrote:

(Please note that I did not cherry my pick videos - I simply searched on youtube for top hardbat players in the US and posted what I found. After watching more videos, my initial impression is that my videos are pretty representative of the top hardbat game.)


They are representative.  But I've failed to explain myself well.  These are top level or near top level hardbat matches.  But these players are not elite.  Not even close. They have typically put only a small fraction of their training time into playing hardbat. NONE of them have trained exclusively with hardbat for 20-30 hours a week for seven to ten years.  In other words, these players do not represent the best that could be done with hardbat.  The don't represent harbat pushed to the limits. For the most part, these are players adapting their sponge games to hardbat.  These aren't "ground up" hardbat players.



Edited by wturber - 12/11/2011 at 11:42pm
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