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New Ball to be Introduced after London Olympics

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Anton Chigurh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Leatherback Leatherback wrote:

what if the PVC provides less wind resistance in the air due to a smoother surface, therefore spin would not die out as quick and it would simulate some of the characteristics of the old 38 mm ball....maybe we could see an increase in new styles....

just trying to see the glass half full....:)


You may or may not be correct, but regardless I applaud the attempt at optimism.

It's refreshing in contrast to many who seem terrified of change, and that change = bad forever and all times.

Although, to be fair I do think that fear is often warranted given the ITTF's bizarre neuroticism and the (alleged but plausible) machinations of the manufacturers. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leatherback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 4:07pm
what if the PVC provides less wind resistance in the air due to a smoother surface, therefore spin would not die out as quick and it would simulate some of the characteristics of the old 38 mm ball....maybe we could see an increase in new styles....

just trying to see the glass half full....:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 2:49pm
Have you noticed that the new dimensions are specified ONLY for balls "not made of celluloid" ?

I am hoping we won't see any significant changes in the next 10 years. I am already tired and upset about my own game, so ITTF makes another one of their stupid rule changes I will just walk away...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:

I know this has been covered before but I really wish the players (particularly China) would take steps to form their own international table tennis organization. ITTF is out of control and driven by greedy manufacturers. There's hardly any consideration for players.



Totally agree.

Are the old balls going to be banned like the glue?


Edited by assiduous - 05/25/2011 at 1:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 12:30pm
I hope players will say "no" on the plastic balls.
There is no plastics as yet to produce the same feelings in play as the celluloid does.
Some 20 years ago there was an attempt by DUNLOP Co. to introduce a PVH ball into the sport, and they did meet a sheer fiasco due to the ball feeling, bouncing and sounding in a way somewhat different from celluloid species. to plyers dissatisfaction.

By the way, there is no documented evidence so far to prove out the ITTF's voicy statement of the general celluloid ban coming soon worldwide.
So, there is no good justification for the ball manufacturers to give up production of table tennis balls of celluloid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 9:15am
That is one bouncy ball.

Thanks for the updates, zeio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 9:07am
Here is another video that has the reporter perform a bounce test(near the end) of the prototype alongside its celluloid counterpart.

Apparently the prototype has a greater bounce(COR > 0.9, the current average for celluloid ball) both in rebound height and duration.  And there is no discernable difference as far as sound is concerned.

According to this news feed, development started after a casual conversation with leaders of CTTA, DHS and DFish during the Bejing Olympics in which Adham pondered how better off the world would be to have a replacement for celluloid given its highly inflammable and poisonous properties, with the first prototype being produced in 2009 and sent to Guang Dong provincial team and second-string national team to try out.

It was not until this April that DHS and DFish provided samples for Adham and ITTF to experiment with.  The exact nature of the material used is not revealed due to patent concerns but it is said to have a relatively high flash point, greater bounce, roundness, as well as evenness in overall hardness.

Here comes the interesting bit.  Adham feels the new ball plays faster but he doesn't like the surface being too smooth, to which Hou Yuan-ang(侯元昂, managing director of DFish) said adjustments could be made about that.

Hou Yuan-ang added that availability should begin at end of year and pricing should not be much higher than that of current ones(to which we will see.)

Last but not least, below are two pictures showing the cross-section of the old and new balls:

Cross-section_Celluloid



Ignoring the messed-up white balance(which makes the old one greenish and the new one reddish), the new material is definitely smoother(see the reflection off the far edge) and the wall looks to be just a tad bit thicker and resembles vinyl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 8:51am
The new balls I think, will have to important features: it will be less durable than todays balls, and it will be more expensive...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnimeLover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 8:44am
Originally posted by conradsong conradsong wrote:

Why doubt the news from China state television, as table tennis is pretty much the national sport of the country?



What news would that be, please share.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote conradsong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 8:02am

I suspect that it'll happen

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote conradsong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 7:58am

Why doubt the news from China state television, as table tennis is pretty much the national sport of the country?



Edited by conradsong - 05/25/2011 at 8:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 4:14am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

Stars are not a problem at all. We can put any number of stars.


You're a star.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 4:12am
Stars are not a problem at all. We can put any number of stars.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 3:57am
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

qynthnghn,
     No offence intended.  Having been in manufacturing, I don't think you will have to worry about 3* balls only. I know of no perfect processes.
     Sure would like to try one of the new ones. Would also like to know predicted cost of the new balls.


Blaaauuugh. I never said I was worrying about only having 3 stars. I was replying to sweetstrike's comment who speculated that.

EDIT: By the way, no offense taken.


Edited by qynthnghm - 05/25/2011 at 3:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 3:55am
qynthnghn,
     No offence intended.  Having been in manufacturing, I don't think you will have to worry about 3* balls only. I know of no perfect processes.
     Sure would like to try one of the new ones. Would also like to know predicted cost of the new balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/25/2011 at 2:40am
Making them recharge by hitting the ball, so that they could gleam or flash, would be also a nice improvement. I could then attach an eco- prefix to the name of our club.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

Manufacturers lose money?  LOL.  Will not happen. Costs will be sent to us. They will cost more as the same machines can not be used to make seamless balls. Guess who buys the new machines? Maybe blow molding machines? Not sure how they will do it.


I'm guessing this was directed at me? I was saying that manufacturers risk losing money if they only made 3 stars, which is unacceptable for them. Hence, that would not happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 10:17pm
Manufacturers lose money?  LOL.  Will not happen. Costs will be sent to us. They will cost more as the same machines can not be used to make seamless balls. Guess who buys the new machines? Maybe blow molding machines? Not sure how they will do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote atv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by qynthnghm qynthnghm wrote:

Originally posted by sweetstrike sweetstrike wrote:

Will they still weigh about 2.7 grams? They could make it a little heavier to slow down the game. A thicker wall would also mean more durability and a harder feel which is preferred by many people.

If they get rid of the seam, then in theory all of the balls can be 3 star grade. So they should be cheaper in the end because there will be less rejects (1 stars).

I highly doubt that and I hope it won't be true. Can you imagine all the clubs around the world that will now have to buy only 3 stars in bulk instead of 1 stars for practice?!

EDIT: Sorry, I felt like I should've elaborated -- I'm thinking that the manufacturers will still come up with a way to produce varying levels of quality in order to continue having 1, 2, and 3 stars. For the sake of the consumer, not everyone always buys 3 stars, especially in bulk (for practice, multiball, robot-use, etc.), so they may lose money on that idea. It's always best to present the consumer with a (perceived) choice rather than to force them to buy the same product.

In our sport, this is how most of the money is made. We're flooded with hundreds and hundreds of different rubbers/balls/blades/accessories that we may or may not need.



1,2,3 star rating has nothing to do with the seam or material, it is just 3 star balls are harder, rounder and heavier than 1 star, there will be still 1 star balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by qynthnghm qynthnghm wrote:


In our sport, this is how most of the money is made. We're flooded with hundreds and hundreds of different rubbers/balls/blades/accessories that we may or may not need.


Side note (slightly off topic):

This is absolutely true, and I highly doubt it's an accident. Various psychological and neuroeconomic experiments demonstrate that while people prefer choice, there is a limit to how much choice makes them happy. After a certain threshold of choice is surpassed, people find it increasingly difficult to be happy with their selection. In that case, too much choice benefits the company in that it keeps people spending, and is detrimental to the customer in that it keeps people from being as satisfied.

Given this principle, I couldn't help but immediately think of the EJ virus. Flood the market with a billion things with only slight differences between them and many people will be strongly compelled to sample it all, never quite being happy with what they have, always curious about the next thing around the corner.

It seems to be a potent tactic: keep people queasy with curiosity and you'll consistently get their money.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 9:38pm
Yes, I can't come up with a worldwide ban on anything, not even smoking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 9:30pm
But I still have a bad feeling, because of their alleged worldwide "total ban" of celluloid coming, which I can not find any reference to on the internet. Why do they need to lie about it?

That is exactly what bothers me also. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by sweetstrike sweetstrike wrote:

Will they still weigh about 2.7 grams?


We need to take a closer look at the issue. By this decision of the BoD the celluloid balls are not banned. The BoD btw has no right to do that, because they have no no right to change anything in the Section 2 of the ITTF rules. So this rule can not be changed by a decision of the BoD:

Quote 2.03      THE BALL
2.03.01      The ball shall be spherical, with a diameter of 40mm.
2.03.02      The ball shall weigh 2.7g.
2.03.03      The ball shall be made of celluloid or similar plastics material and shall be white or orange, and matt.


That means, we will be able to use celluloid balls, provided that the AGM does not change the rule 2.03.

But I still have a bad feeling, because of their alleged worldwide "total ban" of celluloid coming, which I can not find any reference to on the internet. Why do they need to lie about it?

Edited by Mastermind - 05/24/2011 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 8:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Maybe removing the seam will stop some of the cracking.  So, even if more expensive, they may last longer?



less  speed more need  to get expensive rubbers and mega expensive blades gonna be a must  and happinnes for  tamasu gang
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qynthnghm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by sweetstrike sweetstrike wrote:

Will they still weigh about 2.7 grams? They could make it a little heavier to slow down the game. A thicker wall would also mean more durability and a harder feel which is preferred by many people.

If they get rid of the seam, then in theory all of the balls can be 3 star grade. So they should be cheaper in the end because there will be less rejects (1 stars).

I highly doubt that and I hope it won't be true. Can you imagine all the clubs around the world that will now have to buy only 3 stars in bulk instead of 1 stars for practice?!

EDIT: Sorry, I felt like I should've elaborated -- I'm thinking that the manufacturers will still come up with a way to produce varying levels of quality in order to continue having 1, 2, and 3 stars. For the sake of the consumer, not everyone always buys 3 stars, especially in bulk (for practice, multiball, robot-use, etc.), so they may lose money on that idea. It's always best to present the consumer with a (perceived) choice rather than to force them to buy the same product.

In our sport, this is how most of the money is made. We're flooded with hundreds and hundreds of different rubbers/balls/blades/accessories that we may or may not need.


Edited by qynthnghm - 05/24/2011 at 8:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweetstrike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 8:07pm
Will they still weigh about 2.7 grams? They could make it a little heavier to slow down the game. A thicker wall would also mean more durability and a harder feel which is preferred by many people.

If they get rid of the seam, then in theory all of the balls can be 3 star grade. So they should be cheaper in the end because there will be less rejects (1 stars).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 6:45pm

I know this has been covered before but I really wish the players (particularly China) would take steps to form their own international table tennis organization. ITTF is out of control and driven by greedy manufacturers. There's hardly any consideration for players.

I always feel awkward having to explain the current rules when basement players come to the table tennis club. There are all sorts of snapshots of the different rules that have been used over the past years. Some guys come with double black rackets that are literally from the 70s. Some people try to hide serves. Some guys used to play but stopped and still have speed glue. Some guys bring in old 38mm balls to play with because they think they need to bring their own balls. Alot of people still think the game is to 21. "Oh this is table tennis, not any other sport. We change the rules every few years because we don't know how to leave well enough alone."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shihjye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

Did I miss something? Celluloid banned by Nations around the world? All celluloid or just celluloid table tennis balls? No more celluloid key rings, toys and things?

How did all the nations around the world come togather to decide to ban celluloid? Reading the ITTF thing, it sounds like all the nations around the world chooze to ban all things celluloid. Is celluloid dangerous? I know it burns but so do many plastics.

So, are all the nations of the world banning all celluloid use and manufacture independant of the ITTF, or are all the nations in the ITTF banning celluloid balls by agreement through ITTF direction?  Ermm

Quite strange indeed.


I mean, sure stop using it in toys, its flammable. But hey, it's not like we're going to go set our ping-pong balls on fire. (Okay, I admit... I do, it's quite fun to watch. But still, I don't imagine it is a fire hazard, we're mostly all adults, and children will more likely choke on them. Still, please don't make them bigger for choke proofing, =__=;;.)

In fact, it appears that practically the only use left for the substance is producing ping-pong balls. Is there perhaps significant environmental impacts in the production process of celluloid?

Hopefully, the new balls will feel almost identical to the old ones. *crosses fingers*
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2011 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


Originally posted by Propositions to AGM BoD 2011-Results3 Propositions to AGM BoD 2011-Results3 wrote:

F - Proposed by the Executive Committee - PASSED

The ITTF Executive Committee and the Equipment Committee shall request from Ball Manufacturers to produce 40mm non-celluloid balls after the 2012 Olympic Games, in preparation for the total ban of celluloid production by national governments around the world, and the Equipment Committee shall adjust the Technical Leaflet in terms of description of the new material and tolerances.


"The total ban of celluloid production by national governments" looks like another hoax.

I can not find anything on the internet about such a ban.
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