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New: Barwell Fleet

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ttping85 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

ttping85, it is clearer but I can't agree with the conclusion.  I think the fastest flat kill is faster (to the opponent side of the the  table, at the same spot) since a flat kill travels in a straight line while the loop kill has a curve.  I do agree with your other observations though.

It depends on the spot. As slevin said it a flat kill slows down faster than a loop kill. A loop kill is not really that curvy otherwise it would not "kill"  Wink  or maybe I don't understand well this expression. In french I would say "Top frappé". Maybe fatt can help me out with translation...
My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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ttping85 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by TSuBaSa TSuBaSa wrote:

Originally posted by ttping85 ttping85 wrote:

I stated BF as faster than ALC blades because it is able to reach the highest speed when you want it. When I loop kill with the BF it will be faster than the fastest loop kill or flat kill with an ALC blade.

An ALC flat kill or loop kill will be faster than a BF flat kill but both will be slower than a BF loop kill.

So I personally state the BF as faster because of the hihgest speed possible.

It is clearer like this?

And I think bf is slower. And not just a little bit slower...
So clearly something is wrong...

I can completely understand that you find it slower on certain type of shots. 

But do you understand what I am trying to say about the max speed on you can reach with each blade? Because on this shot I find the Maze clearly slower than the BF and not just a little  Wink

Otherwise it's ok if not all players have the exact same impressions on all blades. That's why we are also here to share and discuss our impressions. I don't think there is something wrong with that. 
My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

ttping85, it is clearer but I can't agree with the conclusion.  I think the fastest flat kill is faster (to the opponent side of the the  table, at the same spot) since a flat kill travels in a straight line while the loop kill has a curve.  I do agree with your other observations though.

Disagree when we're talking about hitting from mid-distance to mid-distance: the ball slows down faster on flat hit from you to opponent. 

Slevin,

unless the player is forced away from the table by a lob, you will hardly see anybody flat killing a ball  from mid-distance(3 to 6 ft?) because of inconsistency.  not debating which one is faster from mid-distance (I don't have a good visual of which one is faster), the comparison is not realistic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bschap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 8:35pm
Are any of the "BF is slow" people loopers?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by bschap bschap wrote:

Are any of the "BF is slow" people loopers?

are any of the members loopers?LOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bschap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 8:46pm
me.  I have a BF...been playing with the Barwell.  I will prob get to play with the BF in the next couple of weeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by bschap bschap wrote:

me.  I have a BF...been playing with the Barwell.  I will prob get to play with the BF in the next couple of weeks.
enjoy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TSuBaSa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/22/2014 at 11:56pm
I think bf is clearly slower at high impact shots. Kills, loop drives etc...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2014 at 5:20pm
Notes after two more league nights:

Awesome! (I own a 86g FL model with T05 max on both sides. I prefer BF's FL handle to ST but this maybe because I've used FL handles exclusively over the past 1.5 years). Here are the distinctive (good & bad) features of the BF:

  • Bad - Low gears play requires adjustment / re-learning: Surprisingly, in this OFF+ blade, the one main trait that shall require the user time to acclimate with is how low the low gears are. If you're used to the TB-ALC / Viscaria, when you get a slow ball, you're going to send it into the net. Perhaps, this is why some users found it slow? If, for some reason, you're contemplating on the BF, don't underestimate this issue - it may be big to surmount if you're used to bouncy blades. On the flip side, it really helps in serves and serve receive (much better short game than the TB-ALC / Viscaria). Even if you play with Tenergy, sometimes, you may feel like you're playing with Chinese rubber when close to the table!
  • Good - No holding back in high gears: This is the only OFF+ blade in which I've found this to be true. Even, using the MJ (which, to me, feels slower than TB-ZLC or SZLC), on certain strokes, I need to hold back for fear of over-shooting the other end of the table (this happens somewhere between the low and high gears during which MJ is low-dwell). The key with BF is to hit the blade hard into the ball so that there is good ball penetration into sponge. This is the best blade I've played with for that trait. Because everything lands, if you do this, you get the habit of hitting hard into ball engrained in your stroke. Doing this provides such heavy spin that it feels like no matter how hard you hit, the ball shall land. This blade has amazingly good 'catch' in high gears (the Ayous layers seem to swallow the ball and then spit it out).
  • Good - No holding back in opening loops: This is the other surprising characteristic. With most OFF+ blades (like the SZLC and TB-ZLC), one has to be careful during opening loops (need right timing). If you're going to mis-time, you have to hold back. Not in this blade. The ball bite is excellent and the spin in opening loops is excellent (more than Viscaria). 
  • Bad - BF is a ball breaker: This is an expensive blade! I don't mean the initial cost. Prior to this, I had a JRE and then a Viscaria that I'd use at home on a bag of training balls. Very rarely did I break one given the power I put into the training strokes. But with the BF, I started breaking 2-3 balls each session with the same quality of power put in strokes. The only other time I've had this issue was with the SZLC. I had to spend $$$ to order a box of 3-star balls (training balls may not do) for this!
  • Maybe bad - you better be good with stiff: Don't buy this if you want a flexy blade. I felt this to be stiffer but higher throw than my MJ.
  • Don't know - feel: This blade has a woodier feel than the ALC series blades. For me, feel isn't that important. However, I prefer the more precise feedback of the MJ more than that of this blade even though this blade has a more hide-glue type feedback.


Edited by slevin - 07/31/2014 at 5:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vic#74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2014 at 10:38pm
Slevin, thanks, Nittaku don't need its marketing department to do anything to boost Barwell Fleet sales Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2014 at 10:43pm
Well, I haven't liked a whole lot of Nittaku blades:

I thought Rutis Power wasn't good at all for an average looper. And I think that Violin's nothing special at all in terms of feel (I'd say that even if the blade was $80 instead of whatever they charge for nowadays). What else does that blade have besides feel - oh yeah, loops with it have underwhelming spin for a all-wood blade.

So much for Nittaku marketing!

However, I did like the Ludeack (though my copy was too heavy), Holz Sieben, Acoustic Carbon, Ludeack Fleet & Barwell Fleet. I like BF the most of all of these.


Edited by slevin - 07/31/2014 at 10:44pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/31/2014 at 11:41pm
Slevin,  nice update.  The speed rating of the BF has been controversial.  Please refer to the topic "Nittaku Rubber Chart" in this forum where there is a 2013 catalogue that locates the BF near the line between the Mid and Mid-fast rating, hardly a OFF+.   I would not consider how slow the blade is on slow shots a "bad" trait - I would say the opposite.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 4:11am
Slevin was only mentioning it as "bad" because it can be difficult to get used to it. As JM player I can only agree with this. But it does not mean it is an objectively bad feature.

Otherwise again a very good review from Slevin on the BF. The only thing I might not agree is that for me the BF is more flexible and has lower throw than the JM but I am not surprised that we can have disagreements on those characteristics.

Concerning catalog ratings anybody who has been testing thouroughly many different blades and rubbers know that those are very often not really reliable. Also when there is such a big difference in speed between low and high gears I don't know how ratings can indicate this...

Anyway the BF has been tested by many different members of the french forum and most agree that is an off/off+ blade, somewhere in between the off and off+ category. And all agree that getting the full speed of the blade require more effort than most Butterfly carbon blades.
My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 11:00am
"Anyway the BF has been tested by many different members of the french forum and most agree that is an off/off+ blade, somewhere in between the off and off+ category. And all agree that getting the full speed of the blade require more effort than most Butterfly carbon blades."

that is the whole point, Butterfly Carbons are not all off+.  as stated BF requires more effort meaning is slower overall.  as the ratings are relative (at least to me) logic dictates BF cannot be termed off+: not all Butterfly Carbons are off+ and they are overall faster than BF= BF should be lower than off+. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 6:01pm
if the fact that Blade A has the potential to play a ball with a higher speed than Blade B has no value in the speed rating then you are completely right ;)
My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by Jolan Jolan wrote:

Pair it with xiom sigma II euro and you will have a lethal weapon . If, like me, you are not a national champion, do it with barwell (regular) and you will have the same juicy feel but with a better control.

Jolan: perhaps you found BF a bit too fast to handle because XS2E, even in 2.0 thickness, is (supposedly) a very fast rubber?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/01/2014 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by ttping85 ttping85 wrote:

if the fact that Blade A has the potential to play a ball with a higher speed than Blade B has no value in the speed rating then you are completely right ;)

+1  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aroonkl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2014 at 3:43am
Anyone tries  with H3 or Chinese rubber yet?
I'm tempting to get BF but my exp with Fiberglass blades and H3 weren't as good result as ALC+H3. 
Handle size of BF, is it equal to L-size of Acoustic ST?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2014 at 8:35am
Originally posted by ttping85 ttping85 wrote:

if the fact that Blade A has the potential to play a ball with a higher speed than Blade B has no value in the speed rating then you are completely right ;)

 
tt85, I thought you might stress this point.  please answer this, if blade a has a potential to play (max offensive) at a certain max speed but  most of the time because of  technique /effort  is at 75% or less of this speed and blade b could play at this max speed 90% of the time, should the ratings be equal?  I have no idea   who  should  use these speed ratings.  If they are to be  used by elite players only, who could retrieve the speed out of blade a all the time then blade a would be = to blade b in the speed rating.  If they are to be used by the majority (overwhelmingly non-elite), then blade b should be higher than blade a.Smile


Edited by tom - 08/02/2014 at 8:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2014 at 9:01am
Originally posted by aroonkl aroonkl wrote:

Anyone tries  with H3 or Chinese rubber yet?
I'm tempting to get BF but my exp with Fiberglass blades and H3 weren't as good result as ALC+H3. 
Handle size of BF, is it equal to L-size of Acoustic ST?

aroonki , think I can help. for me a M. Maze with H3 did not have enough speed , but if you think a similar blade with H3 is more than adequate then BF is a good bet.  Please look at the above comments regarding the speed rating of BF vs Butterfly carbons as a good guide.  But I have to warn you - I had to modify my flat kill technique for the BF and you might have to  take some time to fully exploit it as well.  As for the handle, I have a Violin L and the butt of the handle is the exact size of the BF but in hand the BF feels a bit slimmer(both are flared).  I have smaller hands and prefer the BF handle.


Edited by tom - 08/02/2014 at 9:07am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aroonkl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/02/2014 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by aroonkl aroonkl wrote:

Anyone tries  with H3 or Chinese rubber yet?
I'm tempting to get BF but my exp with Fiberglass blades and H3 weren't as good result as ALC+H3. 
Handle size of BF, is it equal to L-size of Acoustic ST?

aroonki , think I can help. for me a M. Maze with H3 did not have enough speed , but if you think a similar blade with H3 is more than adequate then BF is a good bet.  Please look at the above comments regarding the speed rating of BF vs Butterfly carbons as a good guide.  But I have to warn you - I had to modify my flat kill technique for the BF and you might have to  take some time to fully exploit it as well.  As for the handle, I have a Violin L and the butt of the handle is the exact size of the BF but in hand the BF feels a bit slimmer(both are flared).  I have smaller hands and prefer the BF handle.
The problems I had with Fiberglass and some pure Arylate (no carbon)  blades when combo with H3 are:
1. they feel too mushy.
2. spin is low. ALC is better. (Less spin is really big NO NO to me. LOL )
3. the speed is less than ALC.
But if they pair with tensor, they are great.
 
Anyone has hand on with H3 and BF?
BF ST handle compare to  Acoustic L-size ST?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2014 at 9:00am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by ttping85 ttping85 wrote:

if the fact that Blade A has the potential to play a ball with a higher speed than Blade B has no value in the speed rating then you are completely right ;)

 
tt85, I thought you might stress this point.  please answer this, if blade a has a potential to play (max offensive) at a certain max speed but  most of the time because of  technique /effort  is at 75% or less of this speed and blade b could play at this max speed 90% of the time, should the ratings be equal?  I have no idea   who  should  use these speed ratings.  If they are to be  used by elite players only, who could retrieve the speed out of blade a all the time then blade a would be = to blade b in the speed rating.  If they are to be used by the majority (overwhelmingly non-elite), then blade b should be higher than blade a.Smile

I am sharing my opinion on BF on this forum saying that from my experience it is an off/off+ blade because its speed can vary in this range depending ton the situation and the strokes. I think that is quite simple to understand. No need to make complicated calculations and no need to finally to put an off or off+ label on the forum. Actually if you look at more detailed ratings from manufacturers they don't label their blades in only one category. Have a look at Donic: http://www.cms.donic.de/cms/FR/2012-08-27-14-01-3/tableau-des-bois-donic.html

You can also check the Xiom website. They have very interesting and detailed blade ratings: http://www.xiomtt.com/

But anyway it is an opinion among others that most people on the french forum share, some share here and some not. No problem except if you want to absolutely convert me into believing that the BF is only an off blade  Wink  No need from my side to convert anybody. 

On another note, getting the most speed out of the BF (or similar blades) does not necessarily only depend on being an elite player or not. It depends more on the type of game and strokes a player has. I would not recommend this blade to players with a passive blocking game or with a strong flat hitting game even if he has a good player. I would recommend this blade to loopers who want a lot of control in their short game, who want to get a lot of spin in on their opening loops and a lot of speed on their killer loops. But I would not recommend this blade to beginners because it certainly needs a minimum of technique, not necessarily an elite technique. 

My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2014 at 11:29am
tt85, thank you for the Donic link where they straddle the speed rating of their blades in more than one category (eg. off to off+).  This is comparable to your off / off+ rating of the BF.  I think this is a philosophically valid approach but gives a less precise presentation.  It is like say your exam received a grade of 89 to 95 %.
On the converting comment, I think you already have a BF (as do I) so there is no need for either of us to be converted.  I am trying to clarify the differences for members who are looking to get a BF that's all.  Your explanations are well taken and should be helpful to all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttping85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/03/2014 at 4:26pm
Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dannyreventon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2014 at 11:56am
How does it compare to MJ ZLC?
Main Setup:
Timo Boll Spirit
FH: Neo H3 Prov 39deg
BH: Xiom Musa


Stiga Clipper Wood
FH: Neo Skyline 3
BH: Stiga Neos Sound ST

Avenger 5
FH: Neo H3
Bh: Xiom Musa

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2014 at 12:33pm
I've had both. BF is softer, slightly slower, has slightly more dwell than MJ but with more control. It feels woodier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2014 at 6:48am
I have the chance to play this week with both my BF and the Basaltec Outer  and compare it to my butterfly amultart,

    BF and Basaltec  i used Xiom Vega Japan (FH) and Tibhar 1Qxd(BH)
    Butterly amultart i used Xiom Vega Japan(FH) and Xiom Sigma Euro 2 (BH)

My style of play is close to the table most of the time  and to mid distance and my lethal weapon is my flat drive(one blow) old school and  my backhand is more of a punch and my chop is pretty good and i can spin as well but am not a two winged looper.  In my younger years am  an sp player on both sides now probably it explains why i play this way.

Between the three i find the Basaltec is more slower, this blade has an equal distribution of weight, and you could feel every touch of the ball the control is  just amazing you can command the ball anywhere you want it.IMO this blade is for looper. the bounce of the ball is lower than both BF and Amultart it does not catapult,if you love control and feel this is the blade for you. the quality of Basaltec is really top notch. Haven't had the chance to look if what kind of wood or maybe it says somewhere i never look but i noticed that the grain is nice and straight on the face of the blade. For me if i continue to use this blade i have to exert more power for finishing.

Both BF and Amultart have the heaviness of their own. The distribution of BF heaviness comes from his handle and the head of the blade whereas amultart  heaviness of the blade is only from the head of the blade. BF has nicer control and feel but has power as well but amultart is way faster and has more catapult effect like when receiving serve you have to have a nicer touch to the ball BF is more forgiving . By the way, off topic BF is faster than Ludeack Fleet and Tenor i own those blade as well. Amultart is very solid when hitting just because maybe the centre core is thicker.  The BF is you can spin everywhere you want the amultart i find can execute more specific strokes. Its a nice fit for flat drivers although amultart the closest thing that i could compare is with JM , but not everybody agrees with me because i know they have different composition.
   Just ask me some follow up question if you have coz i know i  missed a lot of details in my review.

p.s.
i would still pick BF as backup blade.




Edited by gatz - 08/13/2014 at 6:52am
Blade: ZJ SZLC, Garayda 5000 Matador Texa
Rubbers: FH::Symmetry SP BH: Tenergy Hard, FH: MoristoSP ax BH: Tenergy Hard,FH:Desperado 2 BH: Omega 7 Asia   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BB-Big Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2014 at 3:50am
How does this BF compare to Acoustic carbon or the new kasumi special?
Any comments would be appreciated.

p.s. I already own the BF but I am curious to try the AC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2014 at 1:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2014 at 4:24pm
Originally posted by BB-Big BB-Big wrote:

How does this BF compare to Acoustic carbon or the new kasumi special?
Any comments would be appreciated.

p.s. I already own the BF but I am curious to try the AC.

    Will do next week i just got the NAC testing blade yesterday... hit with it last night and initial reaction is playability is better than BF and faster. I think by the time am done with it i might love it better than BF...keep you posted.
Blade: ZJ SZLC, Garayda 5000 Matador Texa
Rubbers: FH::Symmetry SP BH: Tenergy Hard, FH: MoristoSP ax BH: Tenergy Hard,FH:Desperado 2 BH: Omega 7 Asia   
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