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Rubber Best For Counter

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frogger View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/19/2011 at 1:30pm
Counter attack is mostly a technique but some rubbers seem to favor it over others. I was thinking rubbers like T25, T25 FX Bryce, Bryce speed, Sriver, Sriver G2&3, Spectol 21, Outlaw perhaps. Softer rubbers with soft sponges, long dwell time but fast speed might work also. T25 FX sounds very appealing on a soft carbon blade or all wood blade in the OFF class. This stroke requires fast arm speed and precision with a flatter blade angle so big spin isn't the goal. I was recently defeated in finals by a player who used a worn Sport Craft hardbat that had very fast counters against my expensive inverted set up.
 
 Sport Craft Blade Value...$2.95
 Donic Epox Power Carbon + 2 $50.00 rubbers...$170.00
 
Do they sell Sport Craft blades at Tractor supply? LOL Any feed back would be appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2011 at 4:51pm
I know you use Rakza 7.   What is wrong with that?   1.8mm Rakza 7 is great for flat hitting.
I don't think a new or different rubber will help.

However, I think the real problem is not adapting the to hard bat. The pips could be old and hard and behave almost like frictionless long pips. I play with a hard bat too when I want to relax and slow the game down. I know that some people have trouble adapting to the lack of top spin and over estimate the amount of spin in general and this leads to balls in the net or going long. If you keep the ball low the hard bat player can't do much offensively.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/19/2011 at 10:45pm
Yes agree, the problem at our club is lack of hard bat players. The amount of speed generated by that hard bat player was wicked along with my lack of training against it. After analysis I should have mixed up my shot selection and looped to his BH. Thanks for the feedback pnachtwey. Rakza 7 and Bryce are plenty fast with Rakza having a higher throw. Both are great for counter but lack of game strategy in my case was more important than equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zzz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2011 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by pnachtwey pnachtwey wrote:

1.8mm Rakza 7 is great for flat hitting.

Just tried R7 1.8mm a few days and flat hitting was a nightmare. Maybe it is lack of skills or I got a bad sheet. Flat hits on high balls spreaded very strongly. It was pure luck where the ball landed. Many balls landed a few meters (!!) far from the table, many in the net, only a few at the table. Tried it at a robot and I could not get control over flat hits on high balls.

R7 is a little to fast 4 me, maybe it is possible to adjust. But this behaviour on flat strokes is for me a no-go, pity.
I have no explanation for it because R7 is generally referred to as well suited for flat hits. For the case that I caught a bad copy it does not speak for the quality control of ESN.

Now, back to Moon medium, the control is back and flat hits works like a charm. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2011 at 1:04pm
I think you want a harder sponge, not a softer sponge for countering.  Thinner sponge should help as should thicker topsheet.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like the strong counterloop relies on speed more than spin. It's awfully hard to take a ball that's already topspinning and get it spinning super fast the other way.  Counters seem like they need to be flatted a bit with a stroke more forward than upward.
 
I'd be interested to see if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.  This isnt' something I've heard from a coach or really good player. It's more my experience personally.
Please let me know if I can be of assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speaquinox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2011 at 4:20pm
Are we talking about counter looping or counter hitting?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2011 at 11:02pm
Mostly counter hitting with a supporting loop close to table. I love counter hitting early of the bounce of the ball to manuver my opponent out of position or a well placed fast block. Outlaw was great for this but wished it was offered in a 2.0 not 2.2mm thickness. Cole's view is correct, a harder sponge is better for counter hitting since speed is essential. The one thing I don't like about Rakza 7 is the very high throw but overall still plays fast with decent control not great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debraj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/20/2011 at 11:53pm
-softer sponged rubbers are easy to counter loop with as they provide a largo window to take the ball late... you can stay in the game but you probably can't dominate the counter.

-hard sponge rubbers will let you dominate the counter... but will demand more perfection like the top chinese players with h3 FH. you need more accurate contact timing and angle.

- a balance medium sponge rubber like tenergy 64 or acuda s1 will give you a bit of both world. 

thors is a diff animal... it will be extremely effective but very difficult to execute consistently. 

responding to cole's point of thin sponge.... i can't counter with thin sponge rubbers at all because countering requires huge change in momentum as well... so for my skill level, i need max sponge to feel comfortable in counter, even compromising other strokes.oooo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 12:11am
Cole, I would agree that one way to counter a spinny loop is to use the spin and change it to speed for your favor. I agree a hard sponged rubber can do this job. A shorter stroke and timing/control are for this. the change in speed plus the early hit of the ball can wreck havoc and suprise the opponent and win points. It doesn't require a whole lot of racket speed to make a fast counter, but if one has the right timing and really hits it, that player can really lay down the smack. A low throw rubber is great for this as well. I am crazy about spin ATM and prefer to loop the drive or hit from distance instead of counter, so my preferance for counterlooping is T05 hands down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikepong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 7:52am
i put my bet on h3, but if you use euro/jap rubbers T05 would be my choice
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 8:41am
Counter Loop : H3, especially the provincial or the national.
Counter Hit : Roxon 500 Pro
W968 94 gr
H3 National blue sponge 2.2 untuned
T64 2.1
186 gr
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skyline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 11:59am
Outlaw is very good at countering off the bounce. So are T25, Coppa Speed, T64, Roxon500 and Boost TP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 4:31pm
i suspect that your shots are sitting up too high frogger. is this the case? if you want to counter hit, SP all the way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 10:11pm

BTY Raystorm, Spectol 21, 802-40, Moristo SP, Hammond FA on a BTY Primorac Carbon or Donic Epox Power Carbon would be a countering machine but the angle contacting the ball has to be perfect. Inverted is more forgiving and gives the player a bit of margin for error. Low throw inverted rubbers like Srivers, Outlaw, Bryce work well. Very few players use tensor SP's on both FH and BH, but rest assured ball speed would be pretty fast. I love Schlager's stinging blocks and counters, such a beautiful shots to watch and very effective.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 10:23pm
The good counter looping rubbers have firm sponge and solid top sheets, the good counter hitting rubbers are the opposite, thin top sheets and soft sponges (bouncy rubbers) or short pips, basically just what the girls use since that is their natural game.

You don't need a fast blade to counter if you can punch block them, you only need a rubber that is soft enough to punch through to the wood Handshake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/21/2011 at 11:05pm
If a firm sponge is desired then SST Pro Team would be perfect.
Gambler Wraith is pretty firm too and it can be bought in 2mm instead of 2.15mm.

I still think the real issue has been skirted. Frogger is wondering how to counter the hard bat attacks. I would first try to avoid them. One time I put Peacekeeper 0X on the back of my Samsonov Alpha and it was deadly when I could flat hit but I had to be accurate and I couldn't do much when the ball was low. I could only return the ball low over the net and try to place it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 12:46am
The biggest problem was dealing with very fast low spin shots with low trajectory. Most hard bat players play an allround game with attack when the right ball presents itself or they are choppers who counter attack. Those very fast, straight, low balls I have termed "zingers" and are shots I rarely see in tournament play. After analysis of that match I should have played more mid distance and not close as to give me more time to react. Also power looping to his BH and applying more pressure to his game would have helped. Varying loops with different placement and spin would have helped too. Since my forte was the counter game for that match it was the wrong strategy...so we all learn from our mistakes. LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vutiendat1337 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 1:20am
i really liked Acuda S2 for counterlooping and blocking, its a tad reactive to spin ( compared to h3 e.g.) but once you adapt and figure out the range/angle, its an awesome fast rubber with plenty of spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 1:26am
Now you are solving you problem.   When playing with a hard bat I try everything I can. Chopping, top spinning etc but the hard bat rubber can't really generate that much spin.   It is more a case of FUD ( fear uncertanty and doubt ) that intimidates the normal inverted player. The spin that a hard bat player generates most be respected but this spin is not as great as what an inverted player can generate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 1:29am
I play a blocking/counterhitting style and prefer harder, lower throw rubbers that are not very reactive to topspin. Ones I can recommend are: Thors, Blitz, Tenergy 25, and Skyline TG3 Neo (my current choice). I'm breaking in/learning Thors which shows real promise; the king of spin insensitivity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JEAus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 10:49pm
I found Juic Couga very good as a counter hitting rubber - fast, relatively insensitive to spin and more linear than tensors tend to be. You do need good touch and soft hands for the other shots though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/22/2011 at 11:23pm

Galaxy T-4 along with Palio Blitz max is my setup and i can flat hit almost anything with ease. I am saying that because i was always a spin based player that couldnt smash and i mean it. I would loop any incoming balls no matter the spin / height or else there was a big chance to miss. With the current setup i can smash quite easily.

A hard and stiff blade combined with a rubber, medium-soft topsheet and medium sponge did the job for me.

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