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Classic Rubbers vs. Modern Rubbers |
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Ubbser
Member Joined: 04/29/2010 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 26 |
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Hello, in my opinion I would say it depends on the rewason what type of player you are and how old. The young players nearly always use the modern frehglue rubbers in 1,9 - max sponge thickness. Because the company tell them that these rubber play nearly alone and you can make a lot of speed and spin without a mistake. My generation has begun with classic rubbers and switches maybe to the modern rubbers. But with one difference. I played with a 2,1 mm sponge classic rubber ( Banda Coppa and later Mark V 2,0 ) and I switched to a modern Rubber 3 years ago but with only 1,8 and now 1,9 mm. For me it makes more fun to play with the clic sound. In my club there are somes players with classic rubbers and they produce a lot of spin and speed. For me it ist wrong to say that classic rubbers are not as good as modern rubbers. I´m sure that many players with Tenergy are not able to handle and control that rubber fine. I saw players have more trouble with their own racket than with the oponent. Sorry for my bad english A nice day from ( cold ) Germany |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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The processor analogy is flawed. Unlike your old Pentium III, the classic rubbers are capable of breaking 2ghz with solid user input.
You misunderstand. What I am saying is that classic rubbers require a smaller range of SPECIFIC strokes to get the most out of them. Most modern rubbers also work with those strokes, but the modern rubbers don't require those strokes. If you develop "good technique", it will work regardless of the rubber.
I think there's a big difference between what equipment a student who is receiving coaching 3x and practices 10-20 hours a week and what a beginner who is joining a club with minimal coaching opportunities should use... The former has the coach to keep his strokes honest. The latter does not. You seem to be missing the point that classic rubber acts as a coaching tool, providing valuable feedback in the absence of a coach. I have seen US2300 coaches recommend modern rubbers and OFF equipment to US1000 and lower students who only take lessons once or twice a year. The results of those recommendations, without exception, are disasterous. And I'm sorry that your coach found it difficult to adapt. In conversations with higher level players (US2200+) with classically trained technique who made the switch from Sriver/Mark V to more modern rubbers, the majority have told me that it only required slight stroke adjustments for their games. My point is that if you already have "good technique", those adjustments are usually easy, as modern rubbers will perform well not only with proper strokes, but also with improper strokes. |
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mikepong
Gold Member Joined: 03/09/2011 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 1202 |
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i started playing with sriver and mark V, i would still recommend using it, sure it lacks speed but i dont think it lacks spin, speed using these rubbers even without SG can still be attained by learning proper strokes meaning a decent hard hitting proper technique, but if you learn this technique using classic rubbers and make a good speed out of it, then when you shift to new gen rubbers i think your technique will be more formidable, thats why they call it beginners equipment, but yes i agree that sriver is kinda overpriced, still a good rubber if you can afford it and not feel robbed, mendo and coppa is cheaper, just my opinion though
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mizutani_jun
Gold Member Joined: 01/21/2009 Location: Japan Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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Classic rubber like Sriver or Mark V series really good for developing stroke.
Most of my friends still using it now. Plus it cheaper and very durable rubber. |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Mendo, coppa and the original Rapid are all classics.
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TheRobot99
Silver Member Joined: 10/21/2010 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 915 |
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Ross Leidy Custom, DHS Hurricane III Neos, Nittaku Nodias
Xiom Fuga, Globe 999 National 39, Nittaku Nodias JOOLA Torre All+, DHS Hurricane II #19 Sponge, Galaxy Moon 38 PTTC VP - 2011-12 |
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shay2be
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 750 |
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honestly, modern rubbers are just more slow and more durable then modern rubbers. modern rubbers may be more fast and more spinny. but you can play with anything if you use the right angle on the strokes. i use acoustic with bw2 and dawei 388 a-4 which is a pretty fast setup. i can loop more openly with this setup and open my racket more. i used to have a t-11 with tenergy and bryce and after i got coaching, i closed the bat more (changing the angle) and i could control it. so a us1000 player can get tenergy if he knows his angles and when to use them. but a little change in the angle could lose you the point. so it doesnt really matter what equipment you use. if you have correct technique, you will be fine. so with a slower paddle, you can open it more if you need more control and if its a faster paddle, then close the paddle more and BANG! you can control it
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Timo Boll ZLC
Xiom Vega Japan Tenergy 80 - FX Rating: 2065 |
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arg0
Platinum Member Joined: 07/22/2009 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2023 |
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I don't really agree. The more you close the racket, the less 'effective' surface area you have, and thus the more precision you need to hit the ball in the centre of the racket. In the limit case the racket is angled perpendicularly to the ball and the effective area is zero. This is of course only one reason why playing fast equipment requires better skills. Others are related to the fact that faster equipment (blades or rubber) flexes less and therefore also the dwell time is less. |
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arg0
Platinum Member Joined: 07/22/2009 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2023 |
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And I thought we were the only ones left. Sometimes I can't believe that we upgraded to the 40mm ball.
LOL
About the Vibram Five Fingers (in your avatar). Do you use them for playing TT? Apologies for the OT. To get back on track I may add that Sriver, Mark V, Coppa and the like may cost more than Chinese "equivalents", but what about durability? I recently tested two blades but had only one new sheet of Sriver EL, so I took a 3y old Sriver out of my box, and apart from the fact that it looked quite beaten, the difference in spin I could produce with the two rubbers was barely noticeable, judging from my training partner's responses. Do the "Chinese classics" such as HK1997 and similar also last that long? (unbiased question, I didn't play with them long enough to find out). |
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Thaidog
Gold Member Joined: 01/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1661 |
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As much as I yearn for the day when I never have to play some guy out of the woodworks with a crusty old sheet of petrified Sriver or Mark V I have to respectfully disagree with the OP. Sriver, even untuned can be extremely fast and produce quite satisfactory spin on serves short game and loops. Given the fact that you can get both in 1.3mm to 2.5mm you have something you can play with and fine tune as your style evolves. If you are an all around style player you can still play to the highest level even untuned with Sriver imho.
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Timo ALC FL
Tibhar Grip S MAx Tenergy 64 FX National 2.1mm He never boosts... of course he never had to... |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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+2
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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The good things about Mark V and Sriver is that they come in so many thicknesses. I can hit the ball more than fast enough with Reflectoid. I played with Sriver 40 years ago and now have Mark V. Both Mark V and Sriver are more than fast enough. My objection is that there are cheaper Chinese rubbers that cost half as much that will play the same. |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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I just think you don't truly need something like tenergy for a good while, until you're very good as a player. I picked up a guys racket last week. He had a Timo Boll ALC, with T05 FX on both sides, but in 1.7 thickness. That stuff was still so fast and had so much spin... and that's a slow slow setup to a lot of the guys using modern rackets. But it's just too easy to get spin from the ball with that stuff. I literally needed no technique and i was arcing things down that would normally go way off. Same on the backhand.... my backhand over the table is the shot where i have a very good ball feel. I flipped the ball once, and in mid air though "that's off" and then the ball arced down and landed on the table last second. I was stunned. People are really spoiled by that stuff. And to think what it can REALLY do in the right hands?
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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I just hope that if someone new is considering buying Sriver doesn't listen to any of this but goes to a random club instead. Everyone here love yapping about the ah-so-great 'classics', but I go to 2 clubs, one of the very big, and I don't know one single person to still use Sriver. There are a few folks who still use old chinese rubber, but they get it for 5$ per sheet and I can't say a word to them.
I personally wouldn't use Sriver if it were free. I have to change rubber twice a year, and wouldn't use the damn Sriver all year just to save a hundred dollars. I don't want to play a handicapped match. The people that say it is spiny - when is the last time you bought new rubber? The ninetees? Yes, it can make the ball rotate in the air while going forward, but is that enough to call it spiny? If Sriver is spiny, what is Tenergy? All these mythical 2400 player that come out of nowhere with their 'crusty' Srivers and beat everybody in the club , you guys just crack me up. Sounds like a camping scary story. The whole thing is getting out of proportion. I understand a little bit of bias and stretching the facts but you guys just go overboard. IF YOU TELL ANYONE THAT FOR WHATEVER PURPOSE BUYING A SRIVER FOR $33 IS A GOOD IDEA YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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bluebucket
Platinum Member Joined: 02/20/2011 Location: 16 Status: Offline Points: 2882 |
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lol how much more spinny do you think Tenergy is over Sriver? 5%? 10%? you really think it gets more than 10% more rotation on the ball?, it might go a little more than 10% counter looping. Making it's own spin near that table I doubt it's even 5%. Now how about control 50% worse? 150%? it's a bulk load worse that is for sure
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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That's just it. If you have bad technique, you will feel that that Tenergy allows 50% more spin than Sriver (because you're contacting the ball wrong, and Tenergy still allows heavy topspin from poorly timed strokes) and you might mistakenly feel that the control on the two rubbers is comparable (because Sriver "punishes bad technique" by putting balls into the net or long)... So to summarize this thread, you have a range of players from US1100 to US2000+ saying that the classics are still effective, especially to learn with and develop your own spin from your mechanics and you have a player who has a perfect backhand loop but has never entered a USATT or RatingsCentral sponsored tournament and refuses to give an estimate (assidious) who asserts that the classics are junk and another player who has never entered USATT nor RatingsCentral tournaments (pnatchwey) saying that the Chinese produce comparable products for far less. And I think "workable" and "comparable are two different things. Sure there are some Chinese rubbers that are decent for the price (CJ8000 36-38 on Japanese sponge, Gambler Four Kings, Focus III Snipe, Reflectoid etc. etc.) but I think it's silly to call them a replacement for the classics; as each of them has weaknesses (either durability, non-linear performance, variation sheet to sheet, lack of 1.7-1.9mm beginner thicknesses etc.) that are not present in classic rubbers. And I don't mean to make such a big deal of the "rating thing" (as plenty of decent US1500 level intermediates are unrated), but without some sort of reference point, it's hard to gauge the relative bias of those two opinions. Even more US600-800 level players are unrated, and not all of them are confined to the basement; many of them play in clubs. So it's worth bearing in mind that most players who "self-rate" based on their wins and losses against regular opponents of known rating tend to unknowingly inflate their actual playing strength by 200-300 pts (because familiarity with opponents tends to produce parity over time). Heck, if I were to self-rate (instead of using known systems) I would say that I was somewhere around US1400 - because I split matches with US1200, 1400 and 1600 players... But you can see from my signature, that that is clearly not my standard of play. Just my .02c on the importance of level when providing feedback on rubber; and yes, my gear is too fast for my level ;D |
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shay2be
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Location: usa Status: Offline Points: 750 |
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i think once you have solid technique in your shots, you should be able to play with fast rubbers or blades with only a little bit change in play. technique is everything! get technique down and you can use whatever you want!
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Timo Boll ZLC
Xiom Vega Japan Tenergy 80 - FX Rating: 2065 |
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Vladovich
Gold Member Joined: 05/29/2008 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 1720 |
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So, you play with Srivers both side? Good for you...
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Tibhar Defense Plus
FH: Joola Phenix BH: Dr. Neubauer Bison 1.5mm "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some consider to be…unnatural." |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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When a 2300 rated player tells me my loops are very spinny using Sriver then I guess it's spinny. Edited by frogger - 10/22/2011 at 5:22pm |
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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This comparison is a bit unfair to classic rubbers :
Classic rubber were meant to be used with speed glue - and a comparison between classics without glue and modern rubbers is like saying that a fish is slower than a man because it cannot run 100m fast enough. Put the fish in water and it will swim faster than Usain Bolt runs 100m! Another thing for those who do not know - is that speed glue does not only give speed to the old gen. rubbers. It also adds a lot of spin to them and most importantly it gives them gears. They retain 80-90% of their control and they are generally not bouncy, despite being as fast and explosive as tensors when glued up. They no longer feel "dead" they have a very lively feel. Now that I made this point - to the discussion about if one should buy a classic rubber or a modern one. Well, sadly, even though I am a big fan of classic rubbers, and like them a lot more than modern ones. The truth is that Assidious has a point - he mentions the words "dead sponge" a lot. He is right because without glue the rubbers lack the gears - their character does not even come out - they are dormant not dead - dormant powerful volcanoes, but still dormant. I can attest to this because after a long absence from the game, I came back with my Donic Vario rubbers, and immediately played in competitions. I had to put in a lot more effort, swing a lot more, could recover much slower, and really could get myself injured. I had to switch to my current setup to be competitive. Of course it was not the rubbers which were worse than modern ones...it was that I was using the rubbers in a way that was not intended (no speed glue). As for controlled training - yes classics are good to develop the strokes and technique - surely better than tensors for drilling. But do keep in mind that unglued they lack gears - and therefore are suitable for simple technique forming drills, not for more complex training involving changes in pace and gears. ie: good for FH loop drills. NOT good for BH Loop, FH loop vs heavy chop, then FH loop vs fast ball... there the rubbers already stop performing as well as they should. Unglued they are still great for consistency and control training... so they have a role because these are 2 key aspects of the game. Now I can already foresee some players disagreeing - but the truth is... with classics, at least if you have speed glued them 3-5 times, and then you do not speed glue them again - they become a lot more lively. Using them as out of the package without ever gluing they are dormant and stuck on their lower, less spinny gears. If you glue up several times, even not playing with them - then glue it with water based glue to play - it would already have the medium gears at least... to have the high gears - for max spin and speed, and even control on fast shots.... they have to be freshly glued... even booster won't do it. So my conclusion: Classics when used as intended are in my opinion better than tensors which are too bouncy, lack low gear, are less linear (you get too much power on low power shots, and not as much power as Bryce glued on your hardest shots) - I think this is a technical observation not a preference, as we would all like to have a rubber which can be also good in short game and give a wider spectrum of shots - people who only ever played with tensors are unaware of the effectiveness of certain shots which work less well with tensors. Tensors are still developing, but I have not heard of tensors which are as good as Chinese rubbers (say H3) for the short game, and yet were excellent in what they do. With Classic rubbers, there were! Classical rubbers without speed glue - are not true to their characteristics - and therefore, I would only recommend them as first rubbers - to keep for the first 6 months - 1 year of training and competing. They ARE very good for that - better than new generation rubbers / tensors. Intermediate players should use tensors not classics but in say 1.8mm and chose ones which are control oriented, EVEN if they are all out attackers. Their best "attack" still does not tap into 100% of the control oriented tensors abilities!! As a player plays and trains at a higher level unglued classics will limit him as assidious said - but again this is not because the rubbers are of less quality or only good for beginners - it is because they are incomplete without speed glue - fish out of water. |
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Okay so say you tune a classical older rubber?
Does anyone have experience with how a tuned/standard rubber compares to the newer tensors out there? |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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This thread has been decomposing for almost three years. I saw Icontek and I was like "Whoa he's back!" But then realized these are posts from 2011.
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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Yeppers kind of an old thread. Players will use whatever rubber they feel comfortable with be it tensor or non tensor. |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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Sriver is very good with speed glue. I have not seen anyone dispute that. You kind of wasting your time there, defending a point that noone is attacking.
Those rubbers are OLD generation or just OLD. They are not classic, and they are not competitive without speed glue. OLD. Say it to yourself: OLD. The same way *tuning* is not really tuning, but just a form of deformation that expands the sponge, reducing density in the process, creating a thicker but softer, and less controllable rubber. Deforming your rubber with lamp oil is really not the same as speed glue. Lets not put lipstick on a pig.
Edited by assiduous - 04/15/2014 at 12:29am |
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1151 |
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IMO, when you can play like you breathe everyday, the equipment used does not matter very much at all, unless you go to long pips from max sponge inverted or something drastic. My point being, most people are very very inefficient at hitting the ball, and using classic rubbers just emphasizes this, because people use equipment to cover this inefficiency and classic rubbers have very standard speed and spin qualities. The way I see it, everyone under say 2500 is still learning how to hit the ball, to an extent. The thing is, hitting the ball involves so much more than just a swing- balance, footwork, weight transfer, body tension and fluidity, and a whole bunch of other factors play a role in hitting the ball. When perfected, all these factors create a professional. They can trade monster forehands 10-20 times in a row, they can hit third ball attacks with frightening speed and pinpoint accuracy, they are monsters. All because their ability to hit the ball at their skill level is second only to breathing. That means movement, ball and body handling, ball reading, anticipation, adjustment, balance, everything is super high proficiency.
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Boss1703
Gold Member Joined: 07/05/2007 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1297 |
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new generation of classic rubbers?
joola upp joola novic tsp grandy adidas sonic
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https://www.facebook.com/pierrefiassemapageping
updated 20.11.10 http://bosscollection.skyrock.com http://tennisdetablecomtests.skyrock.com |
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Jubei
Member Joined: 08/01/2010 Status: Offline Points: 51 |
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Xiom Musa, Andro Shifter????
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Clarence247
Silver Member Joined: 02/11/2014 Location: Malta Status: Offline Points: 557 |
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do not confuse allround / defence / slow rubbers with classic rubbers! For example Mark V is control attack, Bryce is outright offensive.
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OSP Virtuoso (Off-)
MX-P (Max) Mantra M (Max) Backup: Yasaka Extra Offensive, Nittaku H3 Prov 729-802 SP |
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VictorK
Silver Member Joined: 08/08/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 647 |
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I played for many years with Mark V, Sriver, Mendo MP, which can probably be classified as classic rubbers. Although I haven't tried too many "modern" rubbers, I found that some of the ones I played with to be very similar while other less similar to classic rubbers in the way they play, and hence required more adjustments on my part.
For example, Tenergy series (especially 05) required much more adjustments than Tibhar Aurus, which I've been using for over 2 years, and the adjustment was almost seamless for me. BTW, both are excellent offensive rubbers that can be liked by players with a variety of different styles, but if someone has strong preference for the feel of a "classic", all-round offensive rubbers like Mark V or Sriver, I'd recommend Aurus over Tenergy. Edited by VictorK - 04/16/2014 at 1:48pm |
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99% practice
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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Just a heads up here. Mark V 1.5 on a DEF class blade is great for choppers. Very allround rubber with variations for different players who like classic rubbers. |
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