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Review: Viscaria vs. Timo Boll Spirit ~ [AllezCho]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Review: Viscaria vs. Timo Boll Spirit ~ [AllezCho]
    Posted: 01/16/2012 at 12:52am
~Mini-Review and Blade Comparison~
Butterfly Viscaria and Butterfly Timo Boll Spirit
 
Background:
Both blades are part of Butterfly's famous Arylate-Carbon series, which stresses a large sweet spot, vibration control, and crisp feeling while also maintaining blade feeling and control as a result of the combination of carbon and arylate fibers. The Viscaria model was the predecessor to the TBS, and many professionals including Timo Boll used it during the earlier parts of their career before their signature blades were created. Famous players who are currently using the Viscaria include Zhang Jike; Michael Maze is currently using the TBS. The ALC series remain a classic and are still widely used by both amateurs and professionals; they are one of the less expensive BTY line of blades (since it is older), but they retain the premium look, feel, and playability of high quality Butterfly products.
 
Notes:
Rubbers used in this comparative review are Stiga Calibra LT (Max) on the FH and Joola Express II (Max) on the BH. Exact weights are unknown, although both feel about the same in mass (I'm guessing in the range of 85-90 g).
 
Construction:
TBS = Koto-ALC-Limba-Kiri-Limba-ALC-Koto --> 5.7 mm thickness
Viscaria = Koto-ALC-Limba-Kiri-Limba-ALC-Koto --> 5.8 mm thickness
 
The Viscaria FL handle is notably thicker than the TBS FL handle.
 
Speed: TBS (faster) > Viscaria (slower) (close-table) Viscaria > TBS (off-table) 
Hard to tell after only one session with the Viscaria (been playing with the TBS for several months now). More info to come after a few more hits with the new setup; however, my intial impression is that the Viscaria is slightly slower.
 
Stiffness: Viscaria (flexier) < TBS (stiffer)
My initial impressions are that the Viscaria is just a tad more flexy than the TBS. Calibra LT is a low-throw, long-trajectory rubber; when I first started with the TBS setup, shots were either getting put into the bottom of the net, or they were lifting past the table with a very flat (but spinny) trajectory. However, these issues were easily adapted to with an adjustment in stroke and technique. With the Viscaria setup, I still had that same flat-long trajectory, but I was hitting on the table. I felt that the Viscaria setup was more forgiving in this respect.
 
Hardness: Viscaria (softer) < TBS (harder)
The Viscaria definitely felt softer, yet it retained the "crispness" that I observed in the TBS. I'm guessing the crisp originates from the structure of the blades (i.e. the Koto outer and the ALC). The Viscaria has one of the best blends of crisp-softness I've seen in a composite blade. But if you like pure crisp feeling, the TBS is the way to go.    
 
Vibration: Viscaria (more vibration) > TBS (less vibration)
Although the vibration is very subtle, I noticed that the Viscaria was less dead and "non-responsive" than the TBS. However, the vibration was minimal (not nearly as responsive as an all-wood blade or soft carbon, for example). In that respect, the Viscaria is a composite with good feeling and touch.
 
General Thoughts:
As noted above, a lot of the differences between the two blades are very slight; in fact, I would speculate that large variances in weight between blades will have more of an effect than the characteristics of the blades themselves. I got used to the new Viscaria setup after about 2-3 balls (which is extremely quick). Thus, I required virtually no time to adapt to this new setup. I could definitely alternate between the two and not notice much of a difference in my play (how fresh my rubbers are will be a much more significant factor). However, in general, I can say that the Viscaria is more responsive, and slightly softer and more flexible than the TBS. I'm not quite sure about the speed comparison yet, and I will update my thoughts on that; I had a light training session today, so I have yet to unlock the full potential of the Viscaria. Big smile 
 
References:
Here are some links to a few past reviews and threads regarding Viscaria/TBS that I will compile here for convenient access. Feel free to check them out!
 
Blade Characteristics: TBS (by High_Arc) -
[some good experimental analysis done with the comparisons]
 
A Softer Timo Boll Spirit (by Asaomi) -
 
Butterfly Viscaria (by High_Arc) -
 
 


Edited by AllezCho - 01/28/2012 at 10:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2012 at 12:53am
Post where I'll write down updates and additional thoughts.
 
(Initial impressions in original post)
 
2nd session of testing:
I'm back at the club drilling and playing practice matches for two hours with a training partner. Most of my original impressions remain confirmed--mainly that the Viscaria gives more feedback and feel. I think the Viscaria is more controllable over the table; for example, my blocks and short game were superior to my game with the TBS setup. Close-table looping was also a breeze--spinny, powerful, and deep at the endline. However, mid-distance looping (which is where I like to play the most) was where I surprisingly began to make a lot of mistakes. With the TBS, my misses from this distance would be into the net. With the Viscaria, I was blasting super arc balls a few feet past the table with the same stroke. Because of this, I am led to believe that the Viscaria is more flexy. [Maybe it's Calibra LT (which requires a breaking-in period; it starts off hard-sponged and fast but as the sponge softens, it becomes a low-throw, faster version of Tenergy). This question will hopefully be resolved as I play with this Viscaria setup for a few more sessions.] I hope to adapt to this problem soon (completely a technique issue), and I will update after a practice session tomorrow and a tournament on Sunday.
 
To sum it up:
- Viscaria definitely gives more feedback.
- Viscaria is more flexy; because of this, mid-distance shots are more powerful/spinny but harder to control, while close-to-table shots are more forgiving.
 
Further testing + Tournament:
I'll try to keep this succinct. I generally agree with my first impressions after having the opportunity to play with the new setup a little more. I'll try to switch back to the TBS setup to see how that feels for a few more sessions, and write a few concluding remarks. 
 
If I were to sum up the most notable observation, it would be:
 
The Viscaria is faster away from the table, while the TBS is faster close to the table.


Edited by AllezCho - 01/28/2012 at 10:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bryce_fx23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2012 at 5:39am
I have same feelings, Viscaria is more controlable blade with has more feeling and it is softer.
When I was useing timo boll spirit i couldnt control ball well, litle mistake and topspin was 1meter over the table:). Viscaria is diferent, I took it first time to my legue match and I won all single games + duble, no traning with it and I could beat rly good players. And it isnt slow blade at all, these blade just allows you put more power on the ball and you are not afraid that u will miss.
VISCARIA FTW!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vvu.tee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2012 at 8:34am
welcome to the debate club

i'd say Viscaria is about the same as TBS in terms of control, softness and speed.

however, feeling/feedback is slightly better. my guess is this is due to the different hardness and thickness of the central ply. therefore on average, TBS has a dulled-down feel and vibe. 

however, do not underestimate the brainwashing (self-suggestion) factor: if you genuinely believe it is better, it will be better for you in fact, and you will tend to act more confidently and will be happier with the results, until you are totally annihilated by a truly superior player... and doubts start creeping through the wreckage and cracked confidence.

TB ALC on the other hand is IMO truly harder and faster than the Viscaria.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2012 at 9:15pm
If you take five Visc and five TBS, and play with all ten blades, you would find that the rank order (1-10) on anything you care to measure -- speed, hardness, dwell, stiffness, feel-- would be unrelated to whether it happened to say Viscaria or Timo Boll on the handle. (I have actually done something close to this, but not with ten blades, only three each). If you have one TBS and one Viscaria, you will think they are different, because they are.  I have had six Viscarias, they were not the same (and I have only two now, I have kept the two that were most alike, gave two away, two were stolen).  They can't be identical since they are made of wood. 

The handles of TBS and Viscaria are slightly different.  Also one is blue.

By the way, both are great blades.  If you  play with a TBS and I take it away and make you play with a Viscaria, after two days (or less) you will be playing at exactly the same level. It would probably take the same length of time to adjust if I took away the TBS you have now and replace it with a different one. This of course assumes the elementary supposition that you are using the same rubbers.  Somebody awhile back wrote a post comparing these blades, but with different rubber combinations.  So much for science education in schools.


Edited by Baal - 01/16/2012 at 9:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2012 at 12:10am
Updated 2nd post after another training session!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2012 at 3:07pm
TBS - imo, overly rated, so so playability (too stiff for me).
 
VIS - highly rated, plays well.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/28/2012 at 10:03pm
Posted a short update.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Offenzive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/01/2012 at 3:14am
Questions about visacria (and TBS)

1) How old is this blade?
2) Is this the best blade with best speed, control and spin? (i am a euro looper) I get terrified everytime i heard a blade is stiff and hard (and there by loose its feeling and control)
3) Why should i take Viscaria who is 10 years old (???) and not a newer blade from 2008,09,10,11, 12 etc...?
4) Why is Viscaria so hard to get/buy? Why dont they sell it?

My eyes catch Viscaria (seepoint 2). I am looking for a NEW blade to replace my ~10 years old Donic Senso v1, and i got confused cause if Viscaria and TBS are so old i can keep playing with my i have now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/01/2012 at 4:42am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

If you take five Visc and five TBS, and play with all ten blades, you would find that the rank order (1-10) on anything you care to measure -- speed, hardness, dwell, stiffness, feel-- would be unrelated to whether it happened to say Viscaria or Timo Boll on the handle. (I have actually done something close to this, but not with ten blades, only three each). If you have one TBS and one Viscaria, you will think they are different, because they are.  I have had six Viscarias, they were not the same (and I have only two now, I have kept the two that were most alike, gave two away, two were stolen).  They can't be identical since they are made of wood. 

The handles of TBS and Viscaria are slightly different.  Also one is blue.

By the way, both are great blades.  If you  play with a TBS and I take it away and make you play with a Viscaria, after two days (or less) you will be playing at exactly the same level. It would probably take the same length of time to adjust if I took away the TBS you have now and replace it with a different one. This of course assumes the elementary supposition that you are using the same rubbers.  Somebody awhile back wrote a post comparing these blades, but with different rubber combinations.  So much for science education in schools.
 
 
How will Speedplay get by if we send a team to his flat in Sweden to take away his prized wavestones??????????? :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/01/2012 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Offenzive Offenzive wrote:

Questions about visacria (and TBS)

1) How old is this blade?
2) Is this the best blade with best speed, control and spin? (i am a euro looper) I get terrified everytime i heard a blade is stiff and hard (and there by loose its feeling and control)
3) Why should i take Viscaria who is 10 years old (???) and not a newer blade from 2008,09,10,11, 12 etc...?
4) Why is Viscaria so hard to get/buy? Why dont they sell it?

My eyes catch Viscaria (seepoint 2). I am looking for a NEW blade to replace my ~10 years old Donic Senso v1, and i got confused cause if Viscaria and TBS are so old i can keep playing with my i have now.


1.  I am not sure when they started making Viscaria, but I would say about 10-12 years ago.  It was after they discontinued the Keyshot, and before they started making the TBS.

2.  There is no one best blade, but the Viscaria is my personal favorite of all time and it is ideal looping.  It has a combination of spin, speed and feel that can't be beat overall, but it is certainly not the fastest blade out there.  I like the weight balance a lot, wish the handle was a bit rounder.  It is not hard.  It is soft, but it is moderately stiff, but not as stiff as more recent Bttfly blades.

3.  Sometimes older blades are better, and the Viscarias were actually made in Japan.

4.  They recently stopped making them., you should still be able to find them, but if not, see if you can find a TBS, pretty much the same thing.




Edited by Baal - 06/01/2012 at 6:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Takkyu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/16/2012 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Offenzive Offenzive wrote:

Questions about visacria (and TBS)

1) How old is this blade?
2) Is this the best blade with best speed, control and spin? (i am a euro looper) I get terrified everytime i heard a blade is stiff and hard (and there by loose its feeling and control)
3) Why should i take Viscaria who is 10 years old (???) and not a newer blade from 2008,09,10,11, 12 etc...?
4) Why is Viscaria so hard to get/buy? Why dont they sell it?

My eyes catch Viscaria (seepoint 2). I am looking for a NEW blade to replace my ~10 years old Donic Senso v1, and i got confused cause if Viscaria and TBS are so old i can keep playing with my i have now.


1.  I am not sure when they started making Viscaria, but I would say about 10-12 years ago.  It was after they discontinued the Keyshot, and before they started making the TBS.


I think they started producing the blade around 1994/95... I've seen a post about it a long time ago. Correct me if I'm wrong.

///

I firstly checked for a Viscaria topic on the forum because I have a small technical question, so no need to go and start a new thread.
Can someone compare precisely (or not if you can't) the size handle of the Viscaria and the TBS ? I've measured my TBS handle already ; I just need to find out if the Viscaria's handle is slightly bigger.
Thanks


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/16/2012 at 9:06pm
I have a bit of updated information that I have been able to confirm examining several blades closely.  The older Viscarias with black badges on the bottom of the handle, are often thinner in the middle ply and had somewhat smaller handles.  The newer ones with silver badges are faster and thicker.  (I am not sure if they made this change in middle ply thickness at the same time as they switched badges, it's just that of the four examples I had to look at, two new ones had silver badges and two older ones had black badges).  It's a matter of taste, but I kind of like the new ones better.  As for Viscaria handle size compared to TBS, I would say the newer Viscarias are similar in size to TBS, but the contours of the shape are slightly different, so it depends on where you measure it.  In general I think the Viscaria handle will feel a little bigger -- if it is a newer one.  I for one wish they were both bigger.  Rumor has it they have stopped making them, but they can still be obtained from Butterfly USA if you call them and are willing to wait a bit.  Apparently they sold a few at the US Open, since a friend of mine bought one there.   

Out of curiosity, I am similar if thickness of TBS blades changed at some point?


Edited by Baal - 07/16/2012 at 9:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/16/2012 at 9:14pm
Speaking of the Viscaria, when was the Taksim produced? it always seemed to me to be the penhold Viscaria, only thicker.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2012 at 2:12am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

I have a bit of updated information that I have been able to confirm examining several blades closely.  The older Viscarias with black badges on the bottom of the handle, are often thinner in the middle ply and had somewhat smaller handles.  The newer ones with silver badges are faster and thicker.  (I am not sure if they made this change in middle ply thickness at the same time as they switched badges, it's just that of the four examples I had to look at, two new ones had silver badges and two older ones had black badges).  It's a matter of taste, but I kind of like the new ones better.  As for Viscaria handle size compared to TBS, I would say the newer Viscarias are similar in size to TBS, but the contours of the shape are slightly different, so it depends on where you measure it.  In general I think the Viscaria handle will feel a little bigger -- if it is a newer one.  I for one wish they were both bigger.  Rumor has it they have stopped making them, but they can still be obtained from Butterfly USA if you call them and are willing to wait a bit.  Apparently they sold a few at the US Open, since a friend of mine bought one there.   

Out of curiosity, I am similar if thickness of TBS blades changed at some point?

I agree about the contours. The Viscaria handle definitely feels thicker than the TBS handle. The length and the width of the handle are probably the same though, as I recall from BTY's specs. Btw, I have a newer one with the silver badge that I bought off a forum member here last Dec/Jan.

Edit: ^ Actually I take that crossed out part back. I have the two on hand right now, and the base of the Viscaria handle is notably wider than that of the TBS. The top half of the Viscaria handle is also slightly thicker (~0.5 mm)...so a total of about 1 mm thicker than the TBS handle. I have really rough measurement tools right now (basically a ruler with mm markings), so hopefully some one else can confirm.

On a sidenote, I will probably update this review soon, since I've got a few things to say about the two blades after having them for a longer period of time.


Edited by AllezCho - 07/17/2012 at 2:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Takkyu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2012 at 9:02am
Thanks Baal and AllezCho !

Btw, do you guys think this Viscria I'm about to buy is genuine: http://oi45.tinypic.com/148ok9.jpg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Giangt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2012 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Takkyu Takkyu wrote:

Thanks Baal and AllezCho !

Btw, do you guys think this Viscria I'm about to buy is genuine: http://oi45.tinypic.com/148ok9.jpg


It seems genuine. The writing on the front side are aligned in both sides and as far I can tell it has the misspelling of "Perfomance" as they should have.

Here is a fake one (Notice the alignment on the right side and spelling of "PEIRFOMANCE")


Edited by Giangt - 07/17/2012 at 9:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Takkyu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/19/2012 at 9:48am
Thanks. But I knew for the mis-spelling of "Performance" and "Flexibility" but the fakers have corrected those errors. So fake Viscaria are on the market with not visual error, at least not as obvious as the previous ones...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2012 at 3:24am
Yeah it looks pretty legit. Also keep in mind the source from where you're buying, and more importantly, the price. Insanely good deals on such a sought-after blade like the Viscaria should instantly raise a red flag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gweipwu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/20/2012 at 3:15pm
My experience w/TBS and Viscaria is: Viscaria is more CN rubber (say H3)friendly than TBS.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2013 at 9:54am
Does fake Viscaria or TBS performs just like or at least close to the real ones? if only cosmetics make the difference and the fake ones closely resembles the originals, I might be tempted.. :D 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/29/2013 at 10:47am
Originally posted by regiz.rugenz regiz.rugenz wrote:

Does fake Viscaria or TBS performs just like or at least close to the real ones? if only cosmetics make the difference and the fake ones closely resembles the originals, I might be tempted.. :D 


Not even close for the one I tried.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toprevers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 7:13am
Just tried a Viscaria for the first time yesterday.
Coming from a Donic Ovtcharov true carbon 87gr (and previously TBS 89gr), I wanted something similar but less bouncy/with more gears. Viscaria is spot on (at least my exemplary of 88gr) : not too fast not too slow, a tad slower than TBS or boll ALC but with more feel and more control. Very manageable in the short game but enough power for offensive game. Dwell time is good, throw angle medium to medium high I would say (higher than TBS) thus very very good for looping. Paired with MX-P (FH) and fastarc G-1 (BH) it is a very versatile weapon. At first, the blade may feel "hollow" or not solid (when boucing a ball on the bare blade) but once rubbers are glued, the feeling is good with a nice sharp/crisp feel on big hits. I do now understand why this is such a popular blade among players from all levels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wanchope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 9:20am
Originally posted by toprevers toprevers wrote:

Just tried a Viscaria for the first time yesterday.
Coming from a Donic Ovtcharov true carbon 87gr (and previously TBS 89gr), I wanted something similar but less bouncy/with more gears. Viscaria is spot on (at least my exemplary of 88gr) : not too fast not too slow, a tad slower than TBS or boll ALC but with more feel and more control. Very manageable in the short game but enough power for offensive game. Dwell time is good, throw angle medium to medium high I would say (higher than TBS) thus very very good for looping. Paired with MX-P (FH) and fastarc G-1 (BH) it is a very versatile weapon. At first, the blade may feel "hollow" or not solid (when boucing a ball on the bare blade) but once rubbers are glued, the feeling is good with a nice sharp/crisp feel on big hits. I do now understand why this is such a popular blade among players from all levels.


How about the difference between viascaria and the O true carbon? I'm using the true carbon now, since there's no cpen version of viscaria.
Barwell fleet, Omega 7 Pro & Fastarc S1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W0LovePP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 1:13pm
Bravo for comparing Viscaria and TBS, which are identical in composition and overall thickness. Could anyone share the thickness of each layer including the core for both blades? Maybe that may account for the differences, and consequently, the popularity of one over the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 2:59pm
There is no systematic difference.  This some variation in both kinds of blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toprevers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

There is no systematic difference.  This some variation in both kinds of blades.

Indeed you can find more difference between 2 viscaria than between 1 viscaria and 1 tb alc due to wood variation.
Viscaria/MX-P/Fastarc G-1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toprevers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by wanchope wanchope wrote:


How about the difference between viascaria and the O true carbon? I'm using the true carbon now, since there's no cpen version of viscaria.

OTC feels stiffer by a notch and faster overall. More dynamic in the short game (ball tends to jump off the paddle even without much action) but very effective in offensive game. And still a nice feel with sharp and crisp contact, nice clicking sound
Viscaria/MX-P/Fastarc G-1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote taczkid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 3:47pm
Viscara vs TB ALC (were those blades the same or at least very similar weight? This is the only factor that will ensure the more correct comparison. As weight is a big factor...
For example a Viscaria and TB both 90grams might play very similar where as Viscaria at 90gram will play different than Viscaria at 83 gram or TB at 83 gram...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote windysummer1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/04/2018 at 7:50pm
which one generates more spin?
My feedback
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=79696
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