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legal boosters?

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ohwell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by ohwell ohwell wrote:

What makes the situation an uneven playing field exactly?  Everyone can use booster provided they don't mind breaking the rules.  

AFAIK the only serious case for an uneven playing field focuses on custom rubbers vs commercially available.  Just force everyone to play with commercial rubbers - and so, force DHS to make the CNT rubbers widely available.  Booster is neither here nor there.  


Everyone can use which booster exactly?  Can everyone get the same stuff?  The same argument for non-commercial rubber can be made for non-commercial booster as well.  Just having booster on the professional scene introduces a chemical-lab arms race.

But that's just idle speculation.  There are two factors in my mind about the level playing field.  First - if you want to obey the rules, or not.  A player who feels an ethical obligation to not cheat is disadvantaged.  Second - boosters are more of a necessity for a single type of rubber - H3N and the like, allowing their use at the top end of men's play.  A player who doesn't want to boost (or doesn't have access to the quality of chemical needed) is then possibly unable to even select that type of rubber, even if he/she thinks it may suit their game, because it lacks catapult.  

Imagine you're a young professional and want to go down the H3N route - where do you start?  What do you do?  Do you commit to it, find your own way of boosting?  You run the risk of discovery at any point, or the booster you select becoming unavailable (and yes, how do you get the same base rubber the CNT use).  It's more of a level playing field in terms of equipment selection, but boosting factors into that.

I agree with the idea that the ITTF should provide equipment to pros at official tournaments, randomly selected from official stores.  I floated that idea around the forums a while ago (this discussion comes up a lot of course).  There are pitfalls for the amateur consumer though - DHS (for example) may be tempted to sell a factory boosted H3N on the open market to enable sponsored players to use it, but the boost might be so short-lived that as a bog standard customer you encounter a seriously short shelf life.

I really dislike the muddy, grey area the ITTF has put us in at the moment.  Either make a serious effort to ban it (and only allow commercially-available rubber fitted in controlled conditions), or allow safe, tested booster to market and give all players access to it without fear of reprisals.  If you sanction and approve them, you also have a chance of testing them and making sure they pose no health risks.  Don't ban it with unenforceable illogical rules and then turn a blind eye.


Lots of great points. I agree that framing the issue in terms of the availability of boosters is misleading, and that custom boosters are a problem too. I must admit though: I doubt differences from custom vs commercial boosters boosters make nearly as big of a difference as whether or not boosters are used at all. But it’s entirely possible they do. The solution might be to make custom boosters illegal. I’m not sure. But if that’s the main issue it comes down to we would both agree that the crusade on boosters is misguided: it should instead be a crusade against proprietary/custom rubbers and chemicals.

About h3 needing booster, in a way that other rubbers don’t. I fully agree. But at that stage I must admit something else: my background hypothesis is that at the end of the day this mess is socio economic. I suspect that what’s going is more like a tension between China’s need to train developing players with very affordable rubbers and corporate interest in maintaining the costs of rubbers made with tensor type tech as high as possible and maximize profit. (DHS also has commercial interests here, but if I’m right their business model as far as rubbers go relies mostly on selling affordable rubbers in very very high quantities,)   If that’s correct, ITTF’s seemingly absurd position is actually very sensible: a ban on boosters that they don’t enforce incentivizes tensor type rubber purchase while letting the low tech, cheap rubber + booster be.

(If that’s right the whole thing has little to do with tacky top sheets. That would raise the question of why top level tacky tensor type rubbers aren’t widespread. My best guess would be that there just isn’t a big enough market for it to motivate Bty/ESN to do better than the handful of options they currently produce.)

Ofc these are just hypotheses and guesses which I’m not in a position to adequately verify.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by ohwell ohwell wrote:

About h3 needing booster, in a way that other rubbers don’t. I fully agree. But at that stage I must admit something else: my background hypothesis is that at the end of the day this mess is socio economic. I suspect that what’s going is more like a tension between China’s need to train developing players with very affordable rubbers and corporate interest in maintaining the costs of rubbers made with tensor type tech as high as possible and maximize profit. (DHS also has commercial interests here, but if I’m right their business model as far as rubbers go relies mostly on selling affordable rubbers in very very high quantities,)   If that’s correct, ITTF’s seemingly absurd position is actually very sensible: a ban on boosters that they don’t enforce incentivizes tensor type rubber purchase while letting the low tech, cheap rubber + booster be.

That's really interesting, I've never thought about it from that perspective before.  That makes it more of a clash between "pure" sporting ethics and the messy real-world.
This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

That's really interesting, I've never thought about it from that perspective before.  That makes it more of a clash between "pure" sporting ethics and the messy real-world.

I like your way of putting it!  Maybe that's a good way to understand what's going on with Timo Boll - his perspective seems like the pure sporting ethics one?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 1:05pm
H3 National is available on DHS official web store and at authorized retailers at a premium - much much higher than any Tensors they sell and the T05.

The bottom line, it still sells like hot cakes.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

H3 National is available on DHS official web store and at authorized retailers at a premium - much much higher than any Tensors they sell and the T05.

The bottom line, it still sells like hot cakes.

I wish we could see the sales figures.  You may be right, but my hunch is that, as with a lot of things,  popular items among very informed buyers and EJs represent a tiny fraction of the sales.   But again you may well be right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 2:02pm
The monthly sales figures are there on Taobao. You'll be amazed by how many they manage to sell.

Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 3:20pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote al_111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 2:59pm
I would guess that Chinese internal market alone has plenty of buyers who are informed enoughWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:20pm
All right. Here is the monthly sales figures for all rubbers sold on DHS official web store at TMall:

Ranked by numbers sold for the past 30 days:
1. H3 Commercial	¥96, 445
2. H3 Provincial ¥180, 265
3. C7 ¥55, 80
4. H3 Provincial BS ¥260, 74
5. C8 ¥35-46, 61
6. GoldArc 5/8 ¥149-188, 60
7. TinArc 5 ¥120, 58
8. H3 National ¥350, 35
9. H8 ¥200, 34
10. H3 Neo Commercial ¥115, 31
11. H3 National BS ¥500, 29
12. Cloud & Fog III ¥75, 23
12. TG3 Neo ¥120, 23
14. TG2 ¥115, 18
15. Skyline 3-60 ¥170, 17
16. H3-50 ¥170, 15
17. TG3 ¥115, 13
18. Sharping ¥78, 12
19. dragonow ¥75, 11
20. H2 ¥105, 10
21. 874 ¥55, 7
22. 651 ¥55, 6
23. TG2 Neo ¥120, 5
23. H3 Neo National ¥599, 5
25. H2 Neo ¥115, 1
26. C7 w/o sponge ¥35, 0


Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 3:38pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:41pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

All right. Here is the monthly sales figures for all rubbers sold on DHS official web store 

holy cr@p! I did not know that non-Neo H3 was still so wildly popular - wonder why? That being said, National sales there are no great shakes - as I'm assuming that casual players in China can get commercial from other local sources (ie: at their club).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Imagine a match between Timo and Ma Long played with rubbers purchased at Megaspin or TT11 and glued by one of us without booster. They would feel the difference but the match would look pretty much the same.

Perhaps. But, what Timo is complaining about is a situation in which only one of them is using boosters. In which case, at their level of calibrated mini-advancements in level, using boosters probably makes a decent enough difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:52pm
Apparently not always.

There is no shot that Chinese players hit that I have not seen performed by European players. They are not better because of their rubbers. They are better because of the intensity and quality of coaching and training and level of competition of practice partners from about age 6 until they retire. There are many reasons for this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Baal / Zeio: I've never tried speed glue before: is the effect much stronger than that of the current boosters (dianchi / FLT / Kailin, etc)?


Like night and day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

All right. Here is the monthly sales figures for all rubbers sold on DHS official web store 

holy cr@p! I did not know that non-Neo H3 was still so wildly popular - wonder why? That being said, National sales there are no great shakes - as I'm assuming that casual players in China can get commercial from other local sources (ie: at their club).

A big part of the reason is that the H3 you buy now is practically the same as the H3 Neo, except it doesn't come with that layer of glue/tuner/primer. The topsheet and sponge are practically the same, not the old one with the old line art designed for the speed glue, the stock of which has been depleted.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:


A big part of the reason is that the H3 you buy now is practically the same as the H3 Neo, except it doesn't come with that layer of glue/tuner/primer. The topsheet and sponge are practically the same, not the old one with the old line art designed for the speed glue, the stock of which has been depleted.

Wait, wut? I did not know that - this is useful info. So, this version is the same as H3NP?

Also, how come H8 did not take off as much in China?

Sorry for the brief threadjack!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:09pm
Ping Pong Tradition

Ma, why do you boost?
Why do you tune?
Why must you live out
The stuff that you're doin'?

Ain't Hurricane 3
Simply good enough for ye?
Why must you soak it
With that oil called Dianchi?

Suppose you and Timo
Played a match with no oils.
Would it make any difference 
As to who gets the spoils?

Let me tell you, spuds
I'm the world's top pro.
Put yourself in my position--
If I stay up all night
So my rubber don't dome,
It's a ping pong tradition.




Edited by berndt_mann - 10/27/2017 at 4:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:09pm
Strange that the sales figures lump gold arc 5 and 8 together
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:17pm
That is the old package for the H3 Provincial.

The new package is the one in dark purple.

H8? Price. For that amount, why not just go for H3 Provincial? Another reason is that the CNT still use H3.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:22pm
So the CNT still uses H3,
Do they still boost it illegally?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by the_theologian the_theologian wrote:

Strange that the sales figures lump gold arc 5 and 8 together

There is a promotion going on right now, where for every GoldArc 5/8 bought, you get a 10-pack 1-star D40+. The promotion started in spring. I guess they created a consolidated product page for those two to reduce confusion.



Edited by zeio - 10/27/2017 at 4:31pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Apparently not always.

There is no shot that Chinese players hit that I have not seen performed by European players. They are not better because of their rubbers. They are better because of the intensity and quality of coaching and training and level of competition of practice partners from about age 6 until they retire. There are many reasons for this.

Would they be better if The Lord of Hosts, who let us remember plays with a 2" X 1" Hock No. 1 1-ply poplar hardbat with the Heavenliest Leyland rubber Heaven can provide, were to proclaim Enough Is Enough! Train as hard as you want from age 6 on, as intensely as you can, with top quality coaches, incredible competition and practice partners galore but....no more sponge or boosters as this situation has gotten completely out of hand.  

Would these titans ot table tennis still be what they are not only without boosting oils but without sponge rubber altogether?

Time to level the playing field once again and once and for all.  Either that or, since Halloween is coming up shortly, have charitable well off folk pass out Hurricane 3 Professional and Seamoon Exclusive for all the trick or treating pros, not just a chosen few, instead of Kit Kats, M & Ms, and Hershey's kisses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 9:14pm


Am I the only one that finds it ironic that while some ppl claim boosting rubbers gives the chinese players an advantage, neither Ma Long nor Lin Gaoyuan won the Men's World Cup in Belgium?!??. Shouldn't that be an indication that boosting does not necessarily mean having an advantage? Boosting does not guarantee a win!!! not at all!

and BTW...this is Ma Longs old racket with Tenergy 05 on the backside (2011)...



FdT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 10:14pm
(FdT) 
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that while some ppl claim boosting rubbers gives the chinese players an advantage, neither Ma Long nor Lin Gaoyuan won the Men's World Cup in Belgium?!??. Shouldn't that be an indication that boosting does not necessarily mean having an advantage? Boosting does not guarantee a win!!! not at all!

I'm not among the throng who claim that boosting rubbers gives advantage only to the Chinese players.  Virtually all the pros boost, either because they think that they'll gain some sort of advantage by boosting, or if they don't boost, they're going to be at a disadvantage playing opponents who do.

You're right.  Boosting doesn't necessarily guarantee that you're gonna win some kind of title, but as sure as it don't rain in Indianapolis in the summertime the pros seem to believe this, or why all this boosting mania in the first place?  What's it all about, Alfie? 

You know, boosting is a question of monumental unconcern to all but a few thousand Americans and probably an equivalent number of Canadians.  But it does give us hard core types who post to tt forums something to talk about.  Could it be that the average Yank and the average Canuck are saner than we? 

Maybe.  At least when they play recpong in their recrooms or garages they don't know that some of the things they are doing are illegal.  Can the same be said of the pros?



Edited by berndt_mann - 10/27/2017 at 10:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fulanodetal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/27/2017 at 10:32pm
" But it does give us hard core types who post to tt forums something to talk about. "

LOLLOLLOL

Agreed!

" Could it be that the average Yank and the average Canuck are saner than we "

NO!

Have you seen the sports those PPL watch in their spare time? Golf, Poker, Darts, Baseball....How lame are they!! How low does your IQ have to be to find amusement on things like "Wrestling"...Dead


Now, some comments in this site leave me baffled, but there's a few very informative posts as well.


FdT


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:

" But it does give us hard core types who post to tt forums something to talk about. "

LOLLOLLOL

Agreed!

" Could it be that the average Yank and the average Canuck are saner than we "

NO!

Have you seen the sports those PPL watch in their spare time? Golf, Poker, Darts, Baseball....How lame are they!! How low does your IQ have to be to find amusement on things like "Wrestling"...Dead


Now, some comments in this site leave me baffled, but there's a few very informative posts as well.


FdT



Now hold it right there, hoser.  You do realize, don't you, that you are libeling a few hundred million bill-paying, tax-paying, law abiding, perfectly nice Americans plus a few tens of millions of Canadians as well.  

When I'm not reading Tolstoy in Russian, Lao Tzu in cryptographic Chinese, or simply going to the crapper, I enjoy an occasional golf match, high stakes poker game from Vegas (is that a sport? ESPN thinks it is), have been known to toss a few darts (not very accurately), and just concluded seeing the Houston Astros defeat the Los Angeles Dodgers to win the third game of the World Series.  And I have an IQ once estimated to be around 303.

Wrassling is a lot of fun.  Where else can you see two gynormous guys lifting one another over their heads and tossing the other out of the ring and then proceeding to beat the tossee senseless with a folding chair?  What red-blooded longshoreman or lumberjack wouldn't want to see that?

So who watches ping pong?  Guys hunched over their laptops getting their jollies off a few guys or gals 99% of the world outside of Asia have ever heard of.  And this is supposed to keep the old IQ in prime working order?

And worst of all, these people don't even pretend to play fair.

Every now and then, someone who posts to this forum does make sense.  Especially me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 2:23am
A different kind of booster, this one not so legal...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 7:12am
Yes slevin, the linked articles in the Guardian and Irish Times are more clearly written. There you will notice that she is alleging that massive systematic doping occurred in the 1980s and 90s, especially before tbe 1988 Olympics. I believe her. Doesn't have much to do with athletes in 2017. WADA would certainly not "ignore" doping of Chinese athletes. They are nothing if not zealous. By the way, WADA didn't exist until 1999.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Fulanodetal Fulanodetal wrote:



Am I the only one that finds it ironic that while some ppl claim boosting rubbers gives the chinese players an advantage, neither Ma Long nor <span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">Lin Gaoyuan won the Men's World Cup in Belgium?!??. Shouldn't that be an indication that boosting does not necessarily mean having an advantage? Boosting does not guarantee a win!!! not at all!</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">and BTW...this is Ma Longs old racket with Tenergy 05 on the backside (2011)...</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">FdT</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
</span>

I want to take this chance to fill people in on how ML felt over equipment.

The passage below came from the other news feed about ML taking a page from Federer's book.

Quote   2014年杜塞尔多夫世界杯,马龙与张继科苦战7局,最终3︰4败北。此后,不善改变的他决定更换用了多年的反手海绵。这个改变需要的不仅仅是勇气,也要承受器材改变带来的技术转变不适。“现在想想,如果不是那次(输球),我不会下决心更换器材,也可能就没有后来的我了。”马龙说。

(At the World Cup 2014 in Dusseldorf, after a grueling seven-gamer with ZJK, ML conceded at 3:4. Afterward, the old-school ML decided to switch out his long-standing backhand sponge. Not only did this change take courage, but it also gave rise to unease during the technical shift brought about by the equipment change. "Looking back, if it wasn't because of that (loss), I wouldn't have had the resolve to switch equipment, and probably there wouldn't have been the subsequent me." said Ma Long.)

Edited by zeio - 10/28/2017 at 12:08pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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slevin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes slevin, the linked articles in the Guardian and Irish Times are more clearly written. There you will notice that she is alleging that massive systematic doping occurred in the 1980s and 90s, especially before tbe 1988 Olympics. I believe her. Doesn't have much to do with athletes in 2017. WADA would certainly not "ignore" doping of Chinese athletes. They are nothing if not zealous. By the way, WADA didn't exist until 1999.

OK - I did not check the date on.

WADA isn't all that it is cracked out to be. In Netflix (streaming), there is a free documentary called Icarus. You should see it - it is very revealing about WADA and state-sponsored doping (albeit in a different country).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

All right. Here is the monthly sales figures for all rubbers sold on DHS official web store 

holy cr@p! I did not know that non-Neo H3 was still so wildly popular - wonder why? That being said, National sales there are no great shakes - as I'm assuming that casual players in China can get commercial from other local sources (ie: at their club).

A big part of the reason is that the H3 you buy now is practically the same as the H3 Neo, except it doesn't come with that layer of glue/tuner/primer. The topsheet and sponge are practically the same, not the old one with the old line art designed for the speed glue, the stock of which has been depleted.



true national h3 has different pips under the topsheet to make it lower throw
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berndt_mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/28/2017 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Yes slevin, the linked articles in the Guardian and Irish Times are more clearly written. There you will notice that she is alleging that massive systematic doping occurred in the 1980s and 90s, especially before tbe 1988 Olympics. I believe her. Doesn't have much to do with athletes in 2017. WADA would certainly not "ignore" doping of Chinese athletes. They are nothing if not zealous. By the way, WADA didn't exist until 1999.

One can only wonder, however:  Is Grandma still home?
bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber
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