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ejmaster View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do you care if people play boosted/tuned rubbers
    Posted: 02/14/2012 at 2:11am
Well the thread here is to see if most players like to play table tennis with people boosting/gluing/tuning
 
My view is that I like to have a fair play.
 
my opponent and I we both have a commercial blade and commercial&legal glued rubbers.
 
yes we know that legal can be difficult to define and test but i agree about trying to punish the use of ilegal substances out of a context.
 
because i do not want to deal as a player with other players with same equipment and different performance behaviour.
 
so in conclusion i am against boosting/tuning.  
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by ejmaster - 02/14/2012 at 3:16am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 2:27am
What kind of loaded question is this?  LOL

The correct question should be:

Do you care if people play with boosted/tuned rubbers, like most pros do anyway? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 2:31am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

What kind of loaded question is this?  LOL

The correct question should be:

Do you care if people play with boosted/tuned rubbers, like most pros do anyway? 
 
whatever, do you care or do you prefer.
 
to people who can understand well, there is no need about using many words.
 
in anycase in honor to rr's contribution lets change the question.


Edited by ejmaster - 02/14/2012 at 3:02am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 3:03am
In my league, playing with boosted/speed-glued/overtuned rubbers is equal to suicide. So I don't mind.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 4:12am
I would agree with Imago - on my level, using boosted rubbers equals to losing of control, so I don't care about those who boost. On pro level, nobody can beat the Chinese anyway Smile 

Also, pros can/do easily get tuned rubbers from factory, so the boost/no-boost topic in nonsense in many ways.

The only thing I do care is keeping air in clubs clean - I really dislike the aroma of speed glue...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 5:46am
Esteemed stephaska, I wholeheartedly disagree. Tuning Byce only adds control, unless you are named ex-dubious forum legend "Kenn" and can go undefeated using unglued Bryce over the course of a carreer.
 
Now tuning T05 might be counter-productive. Tuning a piano is good and tuning a fish is useless.
 
Anyone got any moar incoherent ramblings??? Anyone not knowing kenn can kindy search this and other TT forums for some historical and absolutely histerical posts from a few years back.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 6:46am
Originally posted by BH-Man BH-Man wrote:

Esteemed stephaska, I wholeheartedly disagree. Tuning Byce only adds control, unless you are named ex-dubious forum legend "Kenn" and can go undefeated using unglued Bryce over the course of a carreer

I see what you mean here. Yeah, for speed glue days rubbers, control can be gained with boosting because their sponges supposed to be affected with SG and boosters in right way. But those rubbers boosted won't play [significantly] better than top modern rubbers with glue effect, so why worry about it so much anyway?

Also, my own short experience with booster shown me that rubber starts behaving somehow unpredictable when booster effect starts wearing off, which is not a plus for boosting/tuning...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 6:53am
At first I did, now so many are doing it, its just become normal, so to moan just alienates everybody, I don't tune though. I don't blame the players, I blame the ITTF.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 7:38am
I think the correct way to reason about this issue is this:

Whatever rule the ITTF sets, no matter how crazy and stupid, it is wrong for me to violate it (in an official tournament), because I have freely accepted that rule, the moment I subscribed to an ITTF tournament. (and I have also accepted disqualification and other penalties in case I violate the rule).

It would be completely different if ITTF was forcing people to obey their rules. But it isn't like that. It is a voluntary organization. Nobody is forced to be in.

As a consequence of its voluntary nature, the ITTF is strongly limited in its power to introduce new crazy and costly (for us) rules, because, if it pushed them too far, people would form parallel federations (like hardbat). This is a strong limitation for ITTF, called "potential competition", and should prevent it from doing too big or too stupid changes, or new changes that increase the price of rubbers even more.

In other words: they can "exploit" us, but only up to a point, because otherwise we'd just switch to something else. (Involuntary organizations, such as States, do not have this limitations: they cannot lose customers, so their ability to exploit is much greater.)

While ITTF is afraid to alienate and lose players, the incentive for them is not to avoid any change that we dislike. The incentive for them is to avoid changes that make them lose more players than they attract. For example, a change that makes the sport more attractive and watchable might attract ten new people for each player it alienates, so it would be a good bargain for ITTF.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 7:54am
I guess I have a couple of double standards:

When people are playing friendly basement or for-fun matches, I don't think it matters.

In leagues and tournaments however, it is against the spirit of competition to break established rules.

My biggest gripe however is that I can buy factory tuned rubbers that have a 2 week life span, and instead of spending $1 on boosting, I would have to replace the rubber for $25 to get the same performance...

That single difference cost the ITTF my respect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 8:11am
Originally posted by icontek icontek wrote:



My biggest gripe however is that I can buy factory tuned rubbers that have a 2 week life span, and instead of spending $1 on boosting, I would have to replace the rubber for $25 to get the same performance...


Are you sure retuning is illegal? I mean: the topsheet is not stretched, VOCS are under 3 ppm, and the thickness is under 4 mm. So why do you need to buy a new sheet? What rule are you violating?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:04am
Good post...

As long as what you do is within the rules limits then it is fine. So retuning a tuned rubber or tuning a untuned rubber that will past the VOC test is legal and therefore acceptable. I didn't play in the SG era but many vids I have seen are boring to watch with very short rallies. The modern game seems to have much longer rallies on average is I prefer to watch 5-10ball rallies over 3 any day.

Of note: tuning only seems relevant to those using rubbers suited to it. I tried it a while ago on ESN rubbers and they hit slower and with less spin!? Not sure how that works out but moral of the story seems to be tuning is useful on chinese rubbers as the ESN have this type of effect in built into the sheet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:19am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

In my league, playing with boosted/speed-glued/overtuned rubbers is equal to suicide. So I don't mind.
 
What does this mean? You guys slash the player's tires? Give them a Bulgarian smackdown?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:20am
Originally posted by GoldenDragoon GoldenDragoon wrote:

I didn't play in the SG era but many vids I have seen are boring to watch with very short rallies. The modern game seems to have much longer rallies on average is I prefer to watch 5-10ball rallies over 3 any day.


Yeah but there are two ways to slow the game down and have longer rallies:

1. slow the game down so that only strong people can play shots faster than X.

2. slow the game down so that nobody can play shots faster than X.

(1) can be achieved by making the ball larger and forbidding speed glue and tuning, whereas (2) can be achieved by making the net higher. (In this case, nobody can play fast shots from close to table, because it it would be physically impossible.)

I argue that (2) would be preferrable, but the ITTF chose (1) instead. This way, the kind of player that gets on top is the one who is more physically powerful and quick (Ma Long), not the one who is more talented (we'll never know who this would be).

Quote
Of note: tuning only seems relevant to those using rubbers suited to it. I tried it a while ago on ESN rubbers and they hit slower and with less spin!?


I guess it depends on what ESN you tried. Vega pro tuned with baby oil on sponge is a monster in both speed and spin.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:33am
Originally posted by BeaverMD BeaverMD wrote:

Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

In my league, playing with boosted/speed-glued/overtuned rubbers is equal to suicide. So I don't mind.
 
What does this mean? You guys slash the player's tires? Give them a Bulgarian smackdown?
 
You are correct.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:49am

I can't read Cyrillic and I can't cut and paste on Google translate.  But something tells me if the ITTF has problems with racket compliance, they need to have a Sofia Open Pro Tour in the near future.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:03am
Yes, I do have a problem with it, cause I play by the rules and I'm at disadvantage against those who don't.

I still don't support the rule, but everyone who plays the game should obey by the same rules, to make it a fair contest.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:04am

Indeed, the iron angle bar makes us all equal.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:15am
Where I play all the players boost and tune to some degree.  Some legal and well some old timers  let's just say smell like VOC.  To me I like playing people with boost, because let's face it not every club have people at 2400 rating that can rip the ball without boost. 

Training for sanctioned tournaments of course I have another set up to train with and enter with that setup.  Even in at small tournament where people are more likely to get away with VOC boosting, I don't really care, since I just see it as more training for the sanctioned tournaments.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:47am
Can you still add a poll to this thread?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 11:03am
If you are asking whether I like to play against anyone, in any game, that is cheating, the answer is yes. I don't understand how to play games without rules. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 11:10am

Do you care if people play boosted/tuned rubbers


NO. Make a poll and see what others think.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 5:38pm
I prefer to play players who boost because they are harder to beat generally.
playing harder players forces me to improve my level so we all win.
the problem I had when I boosted was that it was too easy because all the other players were not boosting.
when I stopped boosting it became more interesting because my fh was leveled with my opponent's.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 6:49pm
I would guess that a majority of people saying they don't care if they player against player who cheat/tune rubbers do it themselves, the people on this forum probably do it at a much higher rate than the general playing population due to the numerous incredibly long threads on how to do it, what to do it with so, how to make it undetectable, etc.

And no APW, don't blame the law makers, you should blame the law breakers.

It would be fair if every player used and tuned the same rubber and all had the same play style. But different rubbers, different play styles, react better than others to tuning and different people tune more than others or to a higher degree of success without being caught, so no, it can never be really fair if they actually are all cheating, which I seriously doubt they are to begin with. It's like saying everyone is traveling the same speed because they are all speeding.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 6:52pm
I don't personally have a problem. I'm at no unfair disadvantage to them. If they are good enough to have consistency with it, then they are probably playing at the level where it's most common and I'd lose regardless. Otherwise, they will probably miss more so there's the balance. 

You should be able to ask " do you care if people are playing with tenergy when you aren't playing with tenergy?" It's the same "advantage"- rules or not. If they are at a level where they benefit from it's use, I'll probably lose anyway. If they aren't, then I'll enjoy their misses more often. Balance. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by Jonan Jonan wrote:

I would guess that a majority of people saying they don't care if they player against player who cheat/tune rubbers do it themselves, the people on this forum probably do it at a much higher rate than the general playing population due to the numerous incredibly long threads on how to do it, what to do it with so, how to make it undetectable, etc.

And no APW, don't blame the law makers, you should blame the law breakers.

It would be fair if every player used and tuned the same rubber and all had the same play style. But different rubbers, different play styles, react better than others to tuning and different people tune more than others or to a higher degree of success without being caught, so no, it can never be really fair if they actually are all cheating, which I seriously doubt they are to begin with. It's like saying everyone is traveling the same speed because they are all speeding.

Can't you say the same thing about rubbers before they are even boosted to begin with? How can it be fair anyway if all rubbers play differently and react differently with different blades? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Yes, I do have a problem with it, cause I play by the rules and I'm at disadvantage against those who don't.


If your opponent  can not check it, which is the case with tuning, then he can not be sure, that you did not tune. If he did not tune, it is still possible, that you did, so your opponent can easily be at a disadvantage. The only way for him to avoid this disadvantage and a possible loss in the competition is to tune.

To put in a simple way, it does not matter in a competition what you say, what does matter, is that it can not be checked.

Such rules should be ignored, because they violate the principle of level playing field.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

I don't personally have a problem. I'm at no unfair disadvantage to them. If they are good enough to have consistency with it, then they are probably playing at the level where it's most common and I'd lose regardless. Otherwise, they will probably miss more so there's the balance. 

You should be able to ask " do you care if people are playing with tenergy when you aren't playing with tenergy?" It's the same "advantage"- rules or not. If they are at a level where they benefit from it's use, I'll probably lose anyway. If they aren't, then I'll enjoy their misses more often. Balance. 

+1  Beeray is dead-on with this.  People who are against tuning should view it as he does (many who tune could probably stand a lesson in control first).  Tuning is as much a  "performance detractor" as it is a performance enhancer.  Being blindly against tuning for the simple fact that it is against the rules is akin to being against competitive athletes who use marijuana, JUST BECAUSE IT IS A BANNED SUBSTANCE.  I don't know about you, but I know few sports where pot is actually a 'performance enhancing substance' (skeet shooting and the NBA perhaps Wink LOL).  For an example, if you ask me -- if I'm going toe-to-toe,  against the legendary Michael Phelps, chances are, he'll be bone dry, enjoying himself a nice, scrumptious Subway sandwich before I ever even hit the finish-line, BUT........., if I knew he just happened to enjoy himself a nice long bong-rip before coming pool-side, I imagine my chances to catch the old "Baltimore Bullet" would go up a notch, (if only fractionally). Wink  Stoned or not -- Phelps wins, hands down. 
  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:17pm
Thank you so much for equating tuning with illegal drug use, and I really mean that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/14/2012 at 10:29pm
I don't really mind playing against players that boost, because it makes all the more sweeter when I beat them........
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