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Has anyone tried to analyze points in detail?

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Old-Man-Southpaw View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/31/2012 at 12:15pm
Ok, I haven't ever seen anyone do anything like this, and admittedly I've always been a computer person, with 30 odd years of designing/writing/fixing systems that help business managers improve their business's performance, and that makes me the type that wants to analyze what I did for the purpose of identifying what kinds of people I'm playing, what I did, what my opponent did, what worked, and what didn't, and then entering that as data for each point of each match I look at on tape, massaging it into a summary of information, and then finding the weaknesses and strengths, in hopes that I'll remember to use the strengths, and find ways to improve on my weaknesses.

So, has anyone tried doing anything like this?

At this point I'm just trying to figure out how to lay out the database and enter one game.  To start with I will enter one game of a semi finals match in a tournament where I lost the first two games.  Afterwards, I came back from the 0 - 2 deficit to win 3 - 2, but unfortunately the camera battery died after the first game and I had used all my batteries on the other 6 matches before it.  

The idea is to analyze what were the factors that caused me to lose points vs what factors made me win  points.  Once able to analyze it for one game, I'll then enter another match or two, and see how it stacks up, and try to reorient my practice time to remedy my goofs.

For example I want to know which serves work against what kind of players (in a good game I usually get a few serve only points), and want to know which translate to good 3rd ball attacks (in a good game I usually get a few 3rd ball attack points)

Example #1
Serve by - Me
Serve type - FH corkscrew underspin/left sidespin serve
Won/lost - won
Setup - serve only wins point
Result - 
opponent netted the ball
opponent returned the ball off the table
opponent missed the ball
opponent didn't get to the ball

Example #2
Serve by - Me
Serve type - FH corkscrew underspin serve
Won/lost - won
Setup - opponent hits topspin to my FH
Result - FH kill to BH

I'm just thinking aloud at this point, trying to look at the video, and categorize it into "data" and massage it into useful information...

PS: Since nobody responded, after looking at the first game, I can see my design is lacking...

Here is a revised layout:
Match id
Game id
Point id
Start time on vid
Score before
Serve by
Serve type
Setup causing end of point
Final shot
Point won or lost

Serve type, Setup causing end of point, and Final shot would each be list lookups so that they could be categorized and analysis done later on how many times points were won or lost for a given type of situation.  

Sorry if I'm way out in left field.  Maybe I'm the only one that makes enough mistakes that they have to categorize analyze and prioritize what needs help the most, LOL.  I'd post a vid of the game and a list of the entries for that game if anyone was interested.



Edited by Old-Man-Southpaw - 03/31/2012 at 3:34pm
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kenneyy88 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/31/2012 at 8:40pm
There was something similar posted that the chinese use. Like a stat sheet it showed Ma lin vs Kenta matsuidara. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 2:21am
William Henzell also uses this type of analysis and it's available online. When playing matches, one should always keep track of where your points are lost and won, so that you can always adjust and increase your winning percentages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttEDGE - William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 1:17pm

@blahness - what I currently do is a little different. I do match analysis where I go into a lot of detail and depth about exactly what happened during the point. You miss all this by looking at match footage at normal speed, but when you slow the rally down and look at it 40 or 50 times you start to notice all the subtleties.

I also do video analysis where players send it footage from training or matches which I analyse, edit and send back a video report suggesting changes and improvements.

But this is something quite different. In my other life (since 2008 Olympics when I stopped playing full time TT) I've been working with databases. After the London Olympics I'll be moving more into the field of business intelligence / data analysis which is where Southpaw is headed with his stats.

I'd add quite a few fields Southpaw. On top of yours I would add:

Video name / location (keep every video unique)
Match best of how many sets (so you know if your behaviour / success changes in matches of different length)
Playing against right hander / left hander
Serve spin (serve type might be too general. I'd like to know spin and placement at least)
Serve placement
Receive type (difficult to go too deep but serve, return and first attack happen almost every point and are the foundations to winning matches)
Receive placement
Who played first attack in rally
First attack type
First attack placement
Fitness for match (eg were you tired after playing previous matches. Interesting players to see how their game and patterns may change depending on how tired they were)

Obviously the more data you collect the more analysis you can do of where you are winning and losing points but the longer it will take to input. Should be able to see some good patterns emerging over several matches. I can imagine it would be useful to know if you win 80% of points you play when you do a short topspin serve to the forehand after 8-8. Or that you only win 15% of points when the opponent pushes long to your middle in the 5th set.

Excel should be fine to enter the data (unless you are able to build a little app to input the data directly into a database) but I'd suggest using a decent database system (even fully fledged systems like Microsoft SQL Server have smaller free versions) to be able to analyse the data effectively. Sounds like a fun project :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by ttEDGE - William ttEDGE - William wrote:


@blahness - what I currently do is a little different. I do match analysis where I go into a lot of detail and depth about exactly what happened during the point. You miss all this by looking at match footage at normal speed, but when you slow the rally down and look at it 40 or 50 times you start to notice all the subtleties.

I also do video analysis where players send it footage from training or matches which I analyse, edit and send back a video report suggesting changes and improvements.

But this is something quite different. In my other life (since 2008 Olympics when I stopped playing full time TT) I've been working with databases. After the London Olympics I'll be moving more into the field of business intelligence / data analysis which is where Southpaw is headed with his stats.

I'd add quite a few fields Southpaw. On top of yours I would add:

Video name / location (keep every video unique)
Match best of how many sets (so you know if your behaviour / success changes in matches of different length)
Playing against right hander / left hander
Serve spin (serve type might be too general. I'd like to know spin and placement at least)
Serve placement
Receive type (difficult to go too deep but serve, return and first attack happen almost every point and are the foundations to winning matches)
Receive placement
Who played first attack in rally
First attack type
First attack placement
Fitness for match (eg were you tired after playing previous matches. Interesting players to see how their game and patterns may change depending on how tired they were)

Obviously the more data you collect the more analysis you can do of where you are winning and losing points but the longer it will take to input. Should be able to see some good patterns emerging over several matches. I can imagine it would be useful to know if you win 80% of points you play when you do a short topspin serve to the forehand after 8-8. Or that you only win 15% of points when the opponent pushes long to your middle in the 5th set.

Excel should be fine to enter the data (unless you are able to build a little app to input the data directly into a database) but I'd suggest using a decent database system (even fully fledged systems like Microsoft SQL Server have smaller free versions) to be able to analyse the data effectively. Sounds like a fun project :)


Thanks for the replies.  Yes, actually, the table I listed the contents of was the "points" table, where the "opponents" table has their rating, hand orientation, rubber attributes, and style, if you will.  i have to say, though, you have thought of a number of things I didn't, which was exactly what i was looking for, from someone more knowledgeable than myself, given that this is my first attempt at REALLY analyzing my play and its strengths and weaknesses.

And yes, I've converted the original 60 FPS video to super slow motion, and am going thru the frames one at a time looking at what I'm doing, and trying to identify what made points vs what lost them, yes, looking at the same point 20 times or more.  I obviously don't have your kind of analysis ability, but everything I do manage to figure out and correct is one less problem to fight, and maybe another point here and there as a result, and that's the kind of gains I'm hoping for from doing this.

I also watched some of your analysis, and one result was l'm attempting to convert your Tomohawk top/sidespin serve to my abilities or lack thereof, as well as one of Timo Boll's, that looked possible for me :)    Every little tidbit helps.  Since I seem to get 3 or 4 of my points per game directly from serves, having a few more in the quiver for people that have played me before is a good thing.  I guess I need to work harder on the rest, too.. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 3:13pm
Depending on your level, obviously, but I think you have way to many things already, to make a useful analyze of your game.

Start out simple, count offensive winners vs offensive attempts that have lost you the point. Seperate fh and bh.

keep it as simple as possible to make it useful.

The higher level you are, the more details you can/should add, and for someone like ttEdge, I suppose you can't get enough details to analyze, but for most of us, I think it would be much more useful to dumbs it down a lot to make it useful.

Then there is another problem with these analyzes, they don't analyze the mental aspects of the game. I'm sort of a modern defender my self, and if I where to do an analyze like this, I might get it on paper that my offensive attempts is 50/50. So, my results would be the same by playing purely defensive, right? WRONG! I need to hit those offensive shots, to put pressure on my opponent and force him to play risk shots rather the safe shots, to avoid my attacks. So even if the offensive shots only counts for 50% wins, they might mean a lot more due to "unforced" errors from my opponents, as he don't want to risk me getting in with the attack.

So although it is good to do analyzes of your game, TT isn't a game of numbers alone, mentality plays a huge part in the game. To much analyzing might make you play a cramped game, which is never a good thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttEDGE - William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 3:52pm
I agree with some of that Speedplay (like the part about how the offensive shots will aid following defensive shots) however disagree with other parts. Knowing that you win 80% of points you play when you do a short topspin serve to the forehand after 8-8 could be invaluable for any player of any level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by ttEDGE - William ttEDGE - William wrote:

I agree with some of that Speedplay (like the part about how the offensive shots will aid following defensive shots) however disagree with other parts. Knowing that you win 80% of points you play when you do a short topspin serve to the forehand after 8-8 could be invaluable for any player of any level.



To that, I agree. My point was, if we, low level players, are placing to much focus on what shots we win points from, chances are that we play a cautious game, waiting for our opponent to make a mistkae rather then taking the intiative our self.

So make it a basic analyze. Topspin serves equals good chance at winning. Bh attacks is a low percentage shot. A long push isn't the same as losing the point. This is the kind of observations that are useful to us.

I feel like to many "noobs" are looking to much at the pro's and trying to play like they do, I've been doing this myself, only to realise, my opponents aren't exactly pro material either. I can get away with long serves and long pushes, shots that would be punished at the pro level. So, why should I try to play short (with the risk of going in the net, popping on up, or placeing the shot in the hitting zone) when I can safely get away with a long push?

I've recommended players to play with in their level for a long time. At your level, the demands are a lot different and you really need to make your short push short and low, this is not the case at my level, so why make it harder then it is? Obviously, if you are 10 years old and aiming to be a pro, you need to practice those shots, but if you are +30 years of age, simply trying to be all that you can be, why not play the shots that work at your level?

I've never made an analyze of my games, but I constantly change tactics during a match, depending on my own form and how my opponent deals with the shots I give him. This have helped me to improve from being a bottom feeder in the local league to becoming the main target for the other players in this league.

Don't make things to complicated, but try to keep it simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttEDGE - William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 4:29pm
I guess it all depends on if you are viewing your possibilities or limitations. I am happy to be wrong here but I would have thought that most players who are keen enough to spend time looking at and posting on a forum would at least be interested in improving their results by becoming better players.

I think what Southpaw suggested and I added to is pretty simple analysis. What serves you win and lose on. What returns you win and lose on. Where your first attack goes. Whether the first attacker wins or loses the point. Those few aspects of the game will hold true from beginners to World Championship players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 4:49pm
No offense, but with certain players, a BH attack with long pips is good for a point almost every time it hits the table, as long as I don't try it too often.  And there are other players that every time you hit it, they kill it, and for them, I need to do something else, because its ME with the stunned looks.

ttEDGE William has it correct, IMO. 

Gotta try to improve.  Its possible till its not.


Edited by Old-Man-Southpaw - 04/01/2012 at 4:54pm
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---

Blade: TT Piet Off/All Custom 5 ply

FH: Rakza 7

BH: DTec.S Long pips



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richrf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2012 at 4:57pm
For those who wish to develop a full database using Access or SQL Server,  this would be an example of the table layouts. The design is extensible and more fields can be added or discarded as required. A good project for someone who wishes to sell an online Table Tennis database tool. 

Player Table: Player ID, Name, Ranking, righthander or lefthander, etc. 

Player/Opponent Table: Player ID One, Player ID Two (can be expanding for doubles matches)

Match Table: Player ID One, Player ID Two, Match Number (auto generated incremental number), Game Number, Date, Location, Table Description, video number, match best of how many sets, fitness level, etc.

Game Table: Match Number, Game Number (auto generated incremental number with max. of 7) [This table may not be necessary if only Match Number and Game Number are tracked]

Point Table: Match Number, Game Number, Point Number, serve spin, serve placement, receive type, receive placement, first attack type, first attack placement, final shot, point won or lost 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 10:17am
Yes, actually things like my opponent rating and rubber attributes should be at the match level, not opponent, because they might be different the next time you play them.

I'm only considering entering something like this for matches I videotape and analyze afterwards.  I'm hoping to glean tips of what has worked in the past on either that player or players that have similarities in their style and equipment.  I'm not expecting it to be perfect in that regard, just good enough to tell me what kinds of serves NOT to send vs what serves to try with someone that has long pips, for example.

Obviously, I certainly won't get anything more out of this than what I put into it.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by richrf richrf wrote:

A good project for someone who wishes to sell an online Table Tennis database tool. 
The problem isn't the software,  it is how to get the data.  Most TT players don't have scouts to fill in the blanks. 

I believe ttEdge-William made a video with a pretty detailed analysis of a  TT game between two high level players.   I thought it was interesting and the analysis would have provided good information for a data base.    However, we don't have a ttEdge-William analyst willing to analyze for us.   I also bet ttEdge-William's video took a long time to make so therefore it would be costly.  There just isn't enough money in TT to make it worth it.   The time we would spend analyzing should probably be used practicing anyway. 

I am not saying a database is a bad idea but I think there will be some practical limitations at first.  I would only record that data that would have the most meaningful results but even determining that would be a challenge.   This is what I call 'low hanging fruit'.  I would definitely restrict the database to the first couple of strokes since most rallies don't last 4 strokes.

I have thought about making a database of the COR for different rubbers but I doubt anyone would pay any money for it.   At least testing the rubber would be easier than scouting and analyzing and  plotting the COR as a function of speed would be easier too than filling a dozen or more variables for every match.


  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 12:58pm
I think expecting anyone to be both willing and able to see it, and enter it live on the fly is a pipe dream.  That means its only doable by watching a video of the match over and over to enter it.  I have only seen a few people taping play to analyze it.

That means the potential market size is real small.

I think I'd better just create what I need, LOL.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 4:32pm
From another thread. 
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

The Chinese have a pretty well-developed pool of notatioal analysis for Table Tennis.

To get you started, below is one such analysis for the 3 matches where Kenta Matsudaira was up against Robert Gardos and Ma Lin at the 50th WTTC, and against Wang Liqin at the 2009 China vs World Challenge.

Essentially, the analysis is conducted by a six-part breakdown - Match, Service, 3rd Ball, Receive of Service, 4th Ball as well as Rally.  Those are further broken down into respective subcategories.

 

Category

Serving

3rd Ball

Receiving

4th Ball

Sustained Rally

Total Pts

Pts Won

27

38

18

25

54

162

Pts Lost

3

25

18

33

78

157

Winning Percentage

70

46

41

Usage Percentage

29

30

41

Table 1 Kenta Matsudaira's Match Stats

Service Type

Times

Usage %

Pts Won

Winning %

Tomahawk

146

92

23

16

Heavy Spin or No-Spin

12

8

4

33

Total

158

100

27

17

Table 2 Service Stats

Stroke

Times

Usage %

Pts Won

Winning %

Pts Lost

Losing %

FH

25

40

15

60

10

40

BH

37

59

22

59

15

41

Control

1

2

1

100

Total

63

100

38

60

25

40

Table 3 3rd Ball Stats

Stroke's Nature

Times

Usage %

Pts Won

Winning %

Pts Lost

Losing %

Loop

15

42

5

33

11

73

Control

19

53

13

68

7

37

Total

36

100

18

50

18

50

Table 4 Service Receive Stats

Stroke's Nature

Times

Usage %

Pts Won

Winning %

Pts Lost

Losing %

Loop

27

47

17

63

9

33

Defense

28

48

6

21

21

75

Control

5

9

2

40

3

60

Total

58

100

25

43

33

57

Table 5 4th Ball Stats

Stroke's Nature

Times

Usage %

Pts Won

Winning %

Pts Lost

Losing %

Active Rally

39

30

27

69

12

31

Equally Poised Rally

49

37

22

45

27

55

Passive Rally

44

33

5

11

39

89

Total

132

100

54

41

78

59

Table 6 Rally Stats

 




Edited by kenneyy88 - 04/02/2012 at 4:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old-Man-Southpaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 6:37pm
Does control mean short push to prevent loop?

Its an interesting layout, I have to say...  I might try it for 1 game's worth or a match worth so I can see if it tells me anything.  I did 600 Tomahawk serves today trying to learn that one, LOL.
--- Push/Chop or Attack ---

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2012 at 6:45pm
I think you can modify it to your purposes like into specific serves. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2012 at 2:16am
Originally posted by Old-Man-Southpaw Old-Man-Southpaw wrote:

Does control mean short push to prevent loop?

Its an interesting layout, I have to say...  I might try it for 1 game's worth or a match worth so I can see if it tells me anything.  I did 600 Tomahawk serves today trying to learn that one, LOL.

Yes, anything other than a loop, flick, or strokes that are aggressive in nature.  That is, according to the original article.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/03/2012 at 2:38am
The stats above are pretty indicative.  From the match stats, one can clearly see Serving and 3rd Ball are highly complementary whereas Receiving and 4th Ball appear less so and those connections become less relevant as the rally lengthens.  For Matsudaira's case, the Chinese would focus on containing his serves and his threats drop substantially.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/23/2012 at 9:29pm
For the ones that can understand mandarin, check this out: http://www.mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49627&PN=1#612994
LGL and the players analysing Dortmund. And this was just an hour interview.
Really want to know what goes on behind the scene
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