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Blade Sealing |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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Posted: 04/18/2012 at 2:50pm |
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I recently sealed all my blades with Tibar Clean Coat. The problem is the cost being very high for such a small bottle. What is a cheaper solution that:
Does not change playing qualities of the blade
Is compatible with water based glue contact
Seals and protects the wood without adding undo weight
Let me hear from you guys on what you use.
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j-bo
Super Member Joined: 03/23/2012 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 454 |
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Krylon clear varnish. About 5-6 bucks.
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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You must seal the blade, unless you are wealthy or sponsored and throw them away after they splinter. Seal everything, including Violins, Acoustic, all 1-plies, and especially any blade with some special coating, like the Stiga Ebonholz, Rosewood, Maplewood, etc. I could list the reasons why, but quite frankly I am tired of arguing about this. I have bought, sold, and traded more blades than almost anyone in the world. 9 out of 10 times I get a used blade that was not properly sealed it is damaged . . . pieces of the top plies are missing from lifting off the rubbers . . . or worse . . . the top ply is mush from the glue seeping into it. Sealing will probably change the playing properties about .01 % . . . it will be a touch harder, faster, and with a little less feel. Yet, unless you are Ma Lin you will not notice the difference, I promise! Now, I am not saying put so many coats on your blade that it looks like a coffee table. I'm saying a couple light coats to bind the top plies and prevent the glue from penetrating the wood. I seal a little more on my personal blades because I like them harder and stiffer. One side effect is this . . . you have to glue with a little more care because wood binds better than poly.
Overall, if you don't seal, you are either wealthy, a sponsored pro, or a knucklehead. :-)
Edited by tommyzai - 04/18/2012 at 3:44pm |
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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Blade Sealing by Tommy Zai VARATHANE DIAMOND INTERIOR WOOD FINISH-SATIN (not gloss)-#2002-61. 1. Stir can well without shaking (causes air bubbles). 2. Dip the corner (twisted or folded up a little to provide
a nice little flat area) of clean, dry white cotton cloth* and quickly rub the sealer
into the blade and with a technique that covers evenly. I go in circles
starting at the center of the face of the blade and work my way to the outer
edges, then wipe along the side edge (perimeter) of the blade where the edge
tape will go, then quickly return to the face of the blade to wipe off any
spill over from the edge sealing with some light vertical strokes from handle
out over top of blade. You might want to stroke a nice even level line across
the top of the handle where the bottom edge of the rubber will go; however, I
think it looks better and strengthens the blade to seal the wings/shoulder. I never let the sealant puddle up on the blade . . . that would be too much sealant. Rub it in. Do not layer it on. Some prefer to use a sponge or china bristle brush when applying, but that leaves
a heavy coat and/or streaks of sealant. THAT IS NO GOOD IMO. The trick is to
rub the sealant INTO the blade, then gently wipe off the excess with the cloth.
3. Wait one hour, then polish with a clean dry cloth. 4. Repeat. 5. Repeat a third time ONLY if the blade is like bare porous
wood or if you want a stiffer lacquered effect (I have over sealed and made a
mess. My blade looked like an over protected night table . . . hard as a rock
and too thick). Luckily, I managed to fix this by sanding with a fine gauge wet
sanding sponge and it took hours to repair my disaster. But only do this if you
mess up, which you shouldn't. However, I should mention many of the Chinese
players are over-sealing to stiffen the blade. Some call over-sealing
"lacquering." There are also other product and techniques
specifically designed for lacquering, but I recommend using Varathane and
adjusting the number of layers. 6. Let harden overnight. 7. Affix your rubbers! I use glue sheets and NEVER get splinters when removing!!!!!! *Use a cotton cloth or an expensive paper towel like Bounty
that will not leave lint of fall apart and get stuck to your wet sealer. I use
an old pair of 100% cotton boxer shorts. :-). I don't remember who turned me on to this Varathane, but it
was on MYTT. My hats off to him/her. I added the boxer shorts. |
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j-bo
Super Member Joined: 03/23/2012 Location: Louisiana Status: Offline Points: 454 |
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Delete.
Edited by j-bo - 04/18/2012 at 3:52pm |
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arg0
Platinum Member Joined: 07/22/2009 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 2023 |
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tommyzai,
I suppose you refer to this image that you posted some time ago: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/uploads/New/20070624_194331_Varathane.gif On other Varathane Diamond line products it says "diamond hard". Not sure people want their Hinoki plies to become "diamond hard". Can you comment on that? I assume that any urethane coating hardens wood about the same degree, and since this effect is desirable in wood working, they tend to use it for marketing. But is there any difference between different urethane products? Charlie uses "Good Stuff" for his 1-ply and few-plies cypress blades: http://www.mapleblock.com/detail/butcher-block-finishes-39/ Have you ever used it? |
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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I've only used Varathane and Miniwax. I prefer Varathane as it dries a little slower and gives more time to rub in and off. It has to dry hard . . . harder the better. It's bind the top ply fibers together. I've never used Good Stuff. A little sealant rubbed in is well worth the fraction of a percentage of playing characteristic change IMO.
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raphyelrosby
Super Member Joined: 03/22/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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I use the krylon clear spray enamel, let it dry for an hours lightly sand it and done. put the rubber on. |
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Xiom Hayabusa ZX, Sigma II pro on FH, Vega Elite BH.
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sweetstrike
Silver Member Joined: 11/30/2010 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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If you are gluing OX rubbers on your blade, you should not seal the wood so you get better adhesion. Even with sponge rubbers, if you tune and the rubber domes, you can hold a bigger dome on the surface when the wood is not sealed. There's a reason blades aren't sealed from the factory.
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4946 |
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and when you want to change rubbers? take the chance of splintering?
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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sweetstrike
Silver Member Joined: 11/30/2010 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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OX rubbers don't splinter the blade when you remove them because the sheet is flexible. For sponge rubbers I only had issues when I used best test one coat. Now I use elmers and the bond is weaker and I haven't splintered any blades. You can tell if the blade will splinter by how difficult it is to remove the rubber. If you are applying a lot of force peeling the rubber, it will splinter. If I feel a lot of force, I would use a little bit of heptane to remove the rubber. Right now I'm using a hinoki top ply and I don't have to worry since the grain is closed. Limba and ayous are riskier and I've splintered them before.
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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Tibar Clean Coat is a water based sealer, no voc sealers for me. Is Varathane and Miniwax water based? Like I said I want to find a sealer that does not alter the playing character of the blade. I have tried other sealers in the past and have had a few disasters with the blades becoming unplayable....like trying to play with an iron blade!
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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Spend $130 on a new blade, glue up without sealant, play a few times, pull those rubbers off as fast as you can (especially the OX rubbers), cry you eyes out when half of the top ply is stuck to the sponge, create an FS thread at 1/2 price, and then ship to me. I have plenty of wood filler. LOL.
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sweetstrike
Silver Member Joined: 11/30/2010 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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It all depends on the type of wood and the thickness of the top ply. You don't have to seal every blade and can prevent splintering if you know the properties of the glue that you are using.
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
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wrong. sealing is always good. not sealing you have the blade without protection. buying used blades without sealing is having risk to get the blade deteriorated. i do not know why people insist on keeping the blade without sealing. at the time the wood gets wet the outer is suffering. it is not just a question of splintering. reglue sometimes the blade putting and taking off the rubber and see the outer. Edited by ejmaster - 04/18/2012 at 9:40pm |
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Seal EVERY blade. If done like Tommyz wrote, it will not affect how it plays. Even if a blade does not splinter without sealing, it is soaking in water every time you use water based glue.
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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+1 !
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen Rasanter C48 |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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I think Tommy summed it up nicely. Thank you for the detailed instructions.
This is a straw man argument. If you have adhesion issues with Rubber Cement after sealing, it can either be your gluing technique (not letting the rubber cement dry to tacky on blade and/or rubber) or you may need to just rough up the sealed surface with some 400grit sandpaper. And with legal modern water based glues, even a domed rubber can be adhered. And because the water based glues can turn a top ply into mush over time, it's even more critical to seal your blade than it was pre-2008. To clarify: I can come up with at least THREE REASONS that most manufacturers don't seal. 1 increased cost in materials and complexity/cost of manufacturing process 2 if you damage your blade and have to replace it, this can help the manufacturer sell more blades (it's likely why so few blade manufacturers integrate edge protection into their design). 3 for years the player has been responsible for final finishing-Stiga is a great example- we complain that these blades often look shoddy, but Stiga understands that some of their players will want a light seal and others will want a heavy lacquer. A bare blade is the best way to allow players to customize and the Classic Series allows for that. Knowing that some players prefer different kinds of finishes on the blade surface, Stiga has even marketed the effects of some custom finishes (look at the CR coating and crystalline coating). Of course, they have to add some sort of "proprietary technology" to their marketizing to make sure you buy it from them, rather than apply it yourself :) |
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icontek
Premier Member This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Stuffs is Stiga
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4946 |
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+1. and some Tihbar blades.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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I sealed a blade once with polyurethane and the results where that it made the blade 5% faster, lost some of the flex and generally made the blade into something else. It sure sealed the blade good but I could never use it again. I have tried the old hair spray method and it is ok in a pinch but not the best method. There was a guy at the club who bought a new Photino, covered the whole thing including the handle in polyurethane and then could not understand why it didn't play right.
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Wood Paddle
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ejmaster
Platinum Member Joined: 08/09/2009 Location: madrid Status: Offline Points: 2609 |
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This is a particular problem that you do not know how to seal a blade properly. It is not difficult at all. In fact it is very easy. Have to do really bad to have those problems. Just use paper from the wc to expand a smooth layer (a thin and smooth layering. Use the wc paper to absorb exceeding). Then let dry (very important) 24 hours and the next day do the same with another smooth coating. That is all.
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EJ Club.
MM T05(fh)/Srvfx(bh); InfVps,LSW,Viscaria,RwV,TBAlc,PG7,yextsc,yeo. EJmaster wood. |
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sweetstrike
Silver Member Joined: 11/30/2010 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 689 |
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I don't use water based glue but it makes sense that the water in the glue will penetrate into the wood and take longer to evaporate than VOC solvents. Since the glue between the plies can be weakened with water it makes sense to seal when using WBG.
The only blade I've used that came sealed was the YEO. I found out why after I sanded off the sealer. The walnut surface dries up and looks really bad when it gets exposed to the air. |
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kickass
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2011 Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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do you guys really destroy your blades more from the gluing? I'd think there's more wear and tear from banging on the table, accidental dropping and other impacts. i'd seal only if using water based glue because the glue is so sticky.
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Loop40mm
Super Member Joined: 11/17/2011 Location: Los Angeles Status: Offline Points: 416 |
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I use boiled linseed oil. It is less protective than polyurethane but it seems good enough for my blade. Polyrethane produces a thicker coating than boiled linseed oil. You may have to reapply boiled linseed oil once in a while. Here’s someone comment on using boiled linseed oil on tool handles. Read ‘straw packages’ in the wood below. BLO stands for boiled linseed oil. Want to keep your axe, maul, or sledge handles from cracking? Sand or scrape ALL that lacquer finish off, then rub it down with linseed oil, drill a 1/4" hole in the but end about 2" deep and fill the hole with blo. Cork it with a 1/4" dowell and let it stand for a while. After a week or so check the hole and refill with more blo. |
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Stiga Ebenholz NCT V
FH Tenergy 05 BH DHS Tin Arc 3 |
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kickass
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2011 Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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why doesn't it work for decorative walking sticks?
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Hookshot
Gold Member Joined: 07/24/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1797 |
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Hair spray is NOT a sealer. It creates a weak bond from sponge to wood so it does prevent splintering but it does NOT seal.
Lets see, what is the solvent for hair spray,,,,oh yea,,,,water. Dont believe it? Take two pieces of toilet paper. Spray one with Poly, one with hair spray. Go ahead, make the hairspray coat as thick as you want. A thin poly coat will do. Let them dry or use a hair dryer to speed thing up. Now you have two pieces of stiff toilet paper. Dip them in water and watch what happens. The poly one? Nothing happens. The hair spray one? Instant limp paper. The hairspray disolved in seconds. The same thing happens to the hairspray on your blade. The water based glue disolves the hairspray almost instantly and is then soaking into the wood. Hairspray is NOT a sealer. If you cause a 5% increase in speed with poly sealing, you did nopt use Tommyzs method. It will not do that. We have sealed with more than one coat and no one could tell in a blind test. Two identical bats, same rubbers, one sealed, one not. Using rubber cement can cause a bigger change in a rubber than sealing a blade. Rolling a rubber on hard when glueing it can make a bigger change than sealing. |
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tommyzai
Premier Member Senior Animator Joined: 02/17/2007 Location: Tucson AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 9289 |
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Hookshot,
Let it go my brother. If we finally convince these guys that the pros of sealing HUGHLY outweigh any cons (if there are any) where will we get great deals on damaged blades? Please stop! This is how I make my extra money to survive. Oh, and this is where Stiga, Butterfly, Nittaku, etc. make their biggest profit . . . selling new blades to replace damaged/splintered blades that were not sealed. Don't seal blades, and if you do . . . use your Mom's Aquanet!
Edited by tommyzai - 04/19/2012 at 1:31pm |
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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OK. What is Tommyzs method to seal??? |
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kickass
Super Member Joined: 11/02/2011 Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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blade manufacturers don't make a lot of money from people replacing glue-damaged blades every 3 years. They make a lot of money from people replacing undamaged blades every 3 months.
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