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    Posted: 05/26/2012 at 6:49pm
i admit it ZApenholder. I was wrong about you and i do not have any idea of mandarin. i was just posting what i feel. you are right.
i go back to sleep. it is late here. zzzzz.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/26/2012 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

I guess you still not understanding me or simply don't understand what LGL is telling the whole world from interviews or press releases after Dortmund, after Asian qualifiers and after Korea Open.

We are not talking about Ma or Zhang versus any body or about wins or losses.

The analysis comment between LGL and the talk show host I was pointing out is mental issue, where in World teams (around  the corner and not per your say - "Long time ago") the players had up and downs. The down was because of mental issue. The end result was a win, but LGL stated and the players admitted they had mental issues and each point was discuss in full detail (seems like you haven't seen that video yet)

So you can choose not to believe it, but I am telling you that I heard it with my own ears that LGL, and the 2 players we are talking about, said they had mental issues during the final against Germany. (this interview was about 1 ~ 2 weeks after Dortmund)

And this mental issue has seem to become a lot bigger for Ma Long since winning gold at Dortmund. So IMO this is a current issue with Ma Long and not like history as per your say.

And as I stated before, I saw Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin going through similiar dips but not at Ma Long's young age....

Anyways, you can choose to believe otherwise and I'm going to stop acting like a messenger and telling you what I heard or read from CNT.


BTW, this message is for Ejmaster.
I've figured that he is questioning my knowledge on the information provided

Hope he goes and do some homework and know that I am not making anything up, but rather providing accurate information that I have gathered from information released by CNT

Wonder if he will admit in public that he was wrong about me



Edited by ZApenholder - 05/26/2012 at 3:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2012 at 1:49pm
Regarding Ma Long's and Zhang Jike's mental weakness, I think it's normal because once you get up there in the ranking list, everybody is going after you and you really, really need to have confidence to retain in that top positions and it's not that easy so it's normal for them to have mental weakness and for Liu Goulang to say so.  And I do not try to blame the table tennis rule but 11-point game with 2 serves is the big factor of having lots of upsets.  If you do not attack well and consitent with power, you will have a tough time to have the upper hand.  And because of that, playing against lower ranking players (but upcoming players who are eager to get a piece of you), it's very shaky unless you have a very, very tough mental mindset.  And only losing will help you to get that tough mental mindset if you pick yourself up and press on to be better.
 
I do not try to defend Ma Long at all and I think that will happen to all of us, both in life and in sports and especially in table tennis that has a lot of minor things that could cause a big upset.
 
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Edited by FireHorse - 05/24/2012 at 1:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2012 at 4:29am
If you guys think LGL is strict/bad, how about Cai Zhenhua lol.

BTW, I think what you guys are saying sound correct if you just read the English article.
Imo, the Chinese interviews (where the articles are translated from), doesn't sound so bad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2012 at 12:05am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.

You do have to admit that the ITTF's new rules that cut LGL's career 5 or so years short is certainly something to be bitter about.
 
he could have fought and adapted like everybody if he was that good; he preferred to abandon and throw the towel; another sign of his immeasurable ego. couldn't he have been modest and respected the authority like he demands from his team players?

slapping in public hao shuai at the restaurant? come on!!! what a freaking jerk...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/24/2012 at 12:05am
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:

It's a CONSPIRACY.....

LGL did not choose Ma Long for the Olympic single....  Now, everybody questions him....  What???  No.1 in the world will not play in the Olympic ?????

So LGL called Ma Long:  "Hey, please help me here.....   Can you deliberately lose 2 games against nobody???   Please.... please.... pretty please......    You can save my face here....  I can say that you really sucks and everybody would agree.....   Will you do that for your beloved coach???   Pleeeeeeeasssseeeeee......."

Ma Long:  "OK Boss, whatever you want."  



LOLLOLLOL well said, I think so Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.

You do have to admit that the ITTF's new rules that cut LGL's career 5 or so years short is certainly something to be bitter about.


Edited by roar - 05/23/2012 at 11:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:52pm
It's a CONSPIRACY.....

LGL did not choose Ma Long for the Olympic single....  Now, everybody questions him....  What???  No.1 in the world will not play in the Olympic ?????

So LGL called Ma Long:  "Hey, please help me here.....   Can you deliberately lose 2 games against nobody???   Please.... please.... pretty please......    You can save my face here....  I can say that you really sucks and everybody would agree.....   Will you do that for your beloved coach???   Pleeeeeeeasssseeeeee......."

Ma Long:  "OK Boss, whatever you want."  


Edited by doraemon - 05/23/2012 at 11:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.
well put sir!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:34pm
Sometimes it seems to me that Liu Guoliang's agenda is by whatever means possible to show that no players on his team are as good as he was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:31pm
What I am starting to understand is with Liu Guoliang, nothing is more important than Liu Guoliang. He toys with the people and only thinks about his own dominance as a team leader. Talking that way about Ma Long is just plain idiotic; Ma Long has insolently dominated in a 51 matches streak and the fact he loses 2 lower level players should make a real coach say something like "it can't be too bad for you to loose sometimes -because it helps you keep your feet down to earth- but you understand you can do that only in low rated events?" to which Ma Long would answer "Yes Sir", gaining all his confidence back all at once. 

The way Liu Guoliang bashes Ma Long in public is simply irresponsible and shows that he has now a big head; it's time for his replacement before he takes the team into mental chaos.

Do you remember when he said something like "I grew up with TT so if I can be head coach for 30 more years I'll be happy"? what kind of stupid statement is that?

China produces the best players because it's the national sport in a 1.4 billion people country where players start at 7yo; it is not hard to bring a CNT to international consistent dominance; when it's about doing so with modesty, it is another story and Liu fails in that matter for the worst of the players' self confidence.

I used to like Liu Guoliang; I really do not care about him anymore. He is like a vampire sucking out his players' soul to better feed his own head coaching game and I see him now as a liability for the whole  sport.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:30pm
Ejmaster.

I guess I lost it for a moment there.
Any ways, I found some English reading articles where LGL commented on the psychological state of mind of Ma Long

http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/liu-guoliang-worries-on-ma-long-and-the-do/
http://tabletennista.com/2012/5/ma-longs-condition-is-dangerous/

In fact, after I viewed that interview video, I thought Zhang Jike was in a bigger trouble than Ma Long from Dortmund, clearly we can see that Ma Long is really struggling, hope China open with home court fans can save him.

And BTW, do you understand Mandarin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Roger Stillabower Roger Stillabower wrote:

LGL favors pen hold players, I think in the Korean doubles that Ma Long was motivated more that LGL was coaching WH & ZJ than he was his opponents, just my opinion. I've never read where LGL is praising Ma Long for anything !


You are right, LGL seldom praises his players publically. However the players have huge respect for him.
BTW, did you know Xu Xin is the naughty one of the lot? He fools around etc only when LGL is not in the practice hall, and even his coach Qin Zhijian finds it funny.

I think the big headache now is, who to play doubles, and who to play two singles at the Olympic, as both doubles player can only play one single.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:10pm
I guess you still not understanding me or simply don't understand what LGL is telling the whole world from interviews or press releases after Dortmund, after Asian qualifiers and after Korea Open.

We are not talking about Ma or Zhang versus any body or about wins or losses.

The analysis comment between LGL and the talk show host I was pointing out is mental issue, where in World teams (around  the corner and not per your say - "Long time ago") the players had up and downs. The down was because of mental issue. The end result was a win, but LGL stated and the players admitted they had mental issues and each point was discuss in full detail (seems like you haven't seen that video yet)

So you can choose not to believe it, but I am telling you that I heard it with my own ears that LGL, and the 2 players we are talking about, said they had mental issues during the final against Germany. (this interview was about 1 ~ 2 weeks after Dortmund)

And this mental issue has seem to become a lot bigger for Ma Long since winning gold at Dortmund. So IMO this is a current issue with Ma Long and not like history as per your say.

And as I stated before, I saw Ma Lin, Wang Hao and Wang Liqin going through similiar dips but not at Ma Long's young age....

Anyways, you can choose to believe otherwise and I'm going to stop acting like a messenger and telling you what I heard or read from CNT.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 7:01pm
LGL favors pen hold players, I think in the Korean doubles that Ma Long was motivated more that LGL was coaching WH & ZJ than he was his opponents, just my opinion. I've never read where LGL is praising Ma Long for anything !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:55pm
i know what you are telling me. But this is not what it is at present. That was the past.
 
the present situation is totally unbalanced in favor of zjk and Ma Long. And if zjk and Ma Long have to encounter the situation is unbalanced in favor of Ma Long.
 
Ma Long loses several times in the past against WH in important and in no so important matches. This is not the situation now.
 
Ma Long is outplaying WH lately. And he has outplayed his mates as he didn't do it before. The same with zjk but Ma Long. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:47pm
Well, I won't debate with you in terms of Ma Long not showing mental weakness etc. As I haven't watch much TT matches during the past 5 years until past 6 months, so can't really answer you from my own experience or view point of Ma Long's progress.

But have shared with you what Liu Guo Liang pointed out after the World Teams.

You should watch that interview where he was talking about Ma Long and Zhang Jike mental weaknesses that needs to improve. And having video playbacks of the game against Germany to point out what happened. The players had to explain why they did that etc.

It is 1 hour long for Mens and 1 hour long for womens.
All 3 player that played in the final was interviewed, with head coach Liu in mens interview, and Shi in Women, both accompanying they players




Edited by ZApenholder - 05/23/2012 at 6:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:38pm
Ma Long has not showed mental weakness from long time ago. Neither Ma Long nor zjk.
 
On the contrary. Both Ma Long and zjk are relaxing and losing in non important matches. But both at present look really focused when it is their time. 
 
The difference is that Ma Long is better than zjk. And Ma Long feels better against zjk than zjk against Ma Long.
 
The Ma Long from the past was not so good as Ma Long now. He could fail. A fair fail.
 
i do not see Ma Long failing. He has showed his dominance more than enough.
 
And to lose some matches in non saying tournaments what zjk also does it is no sign of anything.
 
There is little chance for the rest (wh, malin) against Ma Long and zjk. The past is not the present situation.
 
At anytime Ma Long is motivated particularly against his mates there is a Ma Long with eye of the tiger. In the doubles final he was motivated. Wh and zjk with LGL were in front.
And he played sending the message 'I am the number one'.


Edited by ejmaster - 05/23/2012 at 6:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:29pm
Ejmaster.

I think it is comfort zone issue.

Ma Long is trying hard, and trying too hard and not being himself.
He admitted to only playing 50% or less after his game with Koki Niwa.
He was "stuck" and nothing worked

LGL stated a long time already that ML and ZJK are still young and have the biggest problem upon the top 5 (at that time - Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Wang Liqin, Ma Long and Zhang Jike) with mental weaknesses.

I think that video I posted about Journey from Dortmund to London, where LGL explains both ZJK and ML will explain a lot more detail on the issues they are facing today still. That interview also analysis both players mental weakness against Germany in the final


Edited by ZApenholder - 05/23/2012 at 6:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 6:22pm
i do not find sense thinking Ma Long is weak mentally or he chokes. At present after consolidating his dominance, how come he is going to think about failing when he has crushed everybody including an unbalanced record against the only one who may do something zjk.
In the zjk Ma Long matches it is clear zjk is lot more stressed than Ma Long. Ma Long plays really confident against zjk.
After losing against Lee (zero importance, though Lee did it more convincingly than koki Niwa) i watched the doubles final.
And there is a big detail to appreciate. LGL was coaching zjk and Wang Hao against Ma Long and XX.
Ma Long and XX won 4-0, but the thing to appreciate is Ma Long game prevailing over zjk, WH and XX play.
 
He was the leader in that match. And he looks motivated. And he definitely unbalanced the doubles final to his side. XX just colaborates. But the fierce Ma Long was showing he is the real number one in the world.
 
If Ma Long is motivated there is only one dominant player in the court. This is Ma Long. And zjk will win till Ma Long gets in. The present Ma Long is an even better Ma Long in the past.
 
Though he has lost 2 no motivation matches he is the number one ahead from zjk. He is not going to fail at present when the time comes. He is superior to the rest. In the doubles final he was motivated, he was feeling a challenge and he was the best from the 4 best players in the world. The leader is Ma Long. 
 
 

Edited by ejmaster - 05/23/2012 at 6:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 3:57pm
Gauguin
Niwa is history, that is the old thread.
We talking about Ma Long's lost in the Korean open, and talking about Ma Long and Zhang Jike.
In the other thread, we all gave credit to Niwa already, so that is why you won't see it here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gauguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 1:51pm
Ma Long is human after all!!! And please give some credit to Niwa, He played well under pressure for his young age...Just imagine 1,300 millions people looking after you compare to 150 millions...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snerdly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 1:42pm
Ma Long has been kept off the singles roster because he has failed to produce any results in "World" events, something the powers that be see as too big of a risk even with his 51 game winning streak.  And true to form Ma Long falters under the pressure.  Ma Long is the victim of performance anxiety, he chokes, and his coaches know it.

Zhang Jike was twice removed from the first team for total time equaling more than 2 years.  He could't play singles, or doubles, in any international event.  It might have been a tough time in his career. 
Then he is allowed to take his place on the team and he has charged directly into the finals of every "World" event he competes in.  Jike does not falter under pressure, he excels, and his coaches know it.  He is one motivated, shirt ripping mofo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:23am
Zhang Jike's weakness is himself.
In fact, LGL considers both of them in the same league when comes to psychologically speaking, and he said that they physcial training is over, he can't help them any more on how to play, but rather need to try and coach them psychologically.

We can clearly see that in Dortmund when ZJK was playing Timo Boll.
The points he lost when leading was really not the same ZJK during the same game. ZJK even admitted that he was trying to hard and ended up no where.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:53am

Another thing kinda related to Ma Long and Zhang Jike and the Olympic, I believe that this time is the time for Zhang Jike.  I'm not sure if there's anyone strong enough to compete with Zhang Jike in singles unless he gets sick.  I think with Zhang Jike's personality, he will be on fire most of the time.  To me, the only one who Zhang Jike fears the most would be Ma Long (and vice versa).

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Edited by FireHorse - 05/23/2012 at 10:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:31am
Here is the rankings in CTTSL for the past few years:

Year

Zhang Jike

Ma Long

2011

1

2

2010

1

3

2009

2

1

2008

10

1

2007

7

2

2006

41

9


Zhang Jike is also doing sightly better than Ma Long in the Super League
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FireHorse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:25am
I feel bad for Ma Long.  And I do think that it's just a very tough time for him in his career.  I think 2, 3 years ago, Zhang Jike wasn't as good as Ma Long was and Zhang Jike just got a big jump 2 years ago with big winning that proves he's one of the best while Ma Long had been already the best of the best. And Zhang Jike just got lucky in winning the important events that booked him the ticket to London.  Wang Hao is another story and I don't think Ma Long gets envy about Wang Hao going to London.  Ma Long and Zhang Jike are rivalries and either one can go to the Olympic will make the other upset.
 
Anyway, I would think Ma Long has no motivation to compete in a while and his performance will go down (I did wrote at another discussion that his style is pretty hard for him to keep up with the performance that he had several months ago) but I just hope that he will pick himself up and be the best again.  Everybody has a low time in their career but what makes the difference between a good player and a legend is that the legend will pick himself up and become better.
 
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Edited by FireHorse - 05/23/2012 at 10:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 10:06am
MG, as long we all calm - super cool lol

There is so much pressure to be number 1 Chinese player, you just need a few weeks of bad form, then you in trouble. You can become number 5 or number 10 within a month or so.

Timo can have 1 year of bad form, and he won't be under the same pressure as a Chinese if you know what I mean.
I guess same will be applied of there are 5 juniors knocking on Timo's door for a 2 man spot and on how much pressure Timo would be to remain no 1 German player etc. It can be a good thing and a bad thing. And yes, Timo deserves his place and only using him as an example than using another Asian team.

And yes, ZJK or WH for that matter may consider themselves lucky and I still don't think 2 player rule is fair and right. But with rights to Olympics participation comes with huge responsiblity. They have no choice but to bring back Olympic gold. Silver and Bronze is Failure and embarrasements etc.

Now the rest just want to get a medal, or just cause some upsets and have fun etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 9:37am
I'm pretty calm actuallySleepy But it's not Timo's fault that Germany doesn't have better jounger players, and it's not like he doesn't deserve his place at any event. As I said I agree that it is extremely tough for the Chinese players. But they are a product of the Chinese system, they could not get that far in another country, every situation has advantages and disadvantages. In Ma Long's case it's worse, because he was dominating the sport for a year, he's healthy, but still he can't compete for the Olympic title in singles, I don't think something like that has happened in another sport, he's a victim of a stupid rule. I guess if you ask ZJK about that he will say that everything is just perfectLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 9:09am
I don't think the Chinese players have it easy either.  To be in CNT, where you can get financial support, is not easy at all.  These players still need family support, and work their butts off, just like the rest of us, and only a few can make it big.  On top of that they usually don't get to play pass 30 yrs old.
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