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    Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:10am
Ma long just lost to lee sang young at the korean open 4-1.

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Sorry was lee sang su
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:18am
what is happening???? i hope Zhang Jike wins the Korean Open!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nagatito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:23am
Originally posted by silva7 silva7 wrote:

what is happening???? i hope Zhang Jike wins the Korean Open!!!


Me too. Maybe Ma Long is only focussed on the olympics or he is just having pressure for be the n1 the world and he loss
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:34am
Jia you Ma Lin!

Not being selected for a singles spot in the OG probably was a heavy blow to Ma Long's morale, and hence his poor results lately. His playing seems...sluggish almost. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nagatito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:40am
But he already knew that he was only gonna be playing for the team event because hao and jike has chances to win hes grand slam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote popperlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:54am
Ma Long was totally outplayed; forehand, backhand, service. Sang Su was on fire and had the whole stadium supporting him. Epic match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikepong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:31am
Yeah he was outplayed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AllezCho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:47am
Originally posted by Nagatito Nagatito wrote:

But he already knew that he was only gonna be playing for the team event because hao and jike has chances to win hes grand slam

It doesn't matter if he "knew" he wasn't going to play singles. The fact that he won't be able to fight for an Olympic medal is still a tough mental blow for him. He is in fact currently ranked #1, and he certainly played that way over the last year, with an astonishing 94.6% win rate against all opponents and at one point, going undefeated for the most consecutive Pro Tour matches.  In 4 years at the next OG, Ma Long won't necessarily be at his physical peak anymore and there will be a new generation of Chinese players along with ZJK and XX ready to compete with him for the singles spot. Not being able to play singles in London must be pretty disheartening to him.  

Also, the argument that WH and ZJK were granted the singles only because they are within striking distance of completing a "Grand Slam," an unofficial title, is weak imo. LGL and the other CNT coaches ultimately chose WH/ZJK for singles due to strategic reasons--because they thought that WH and ZJK would be the most reliable players to win against international competition. Clearly, as demonstrated in this Korea Open, Ma Long is already caving into the pressure, something that LGL pointed out was one of the biggest flaws in Ma Long's game. 

And yes, Lee Sang Su played extremely well! Congrats to him!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssiew968 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:28am
Recently Ma Long also lost to Koki Niwa. Did you see the match between Ma Lin and Koki. It was an easy win. Other than mental toughness, there is also another weakness in Ma Long's game. He doesn't have a special weapon that opened up the game in his favour. Ma Lin got fantastic service. Both Wang Hao and Jike got in-table backhand drive whenever opponents serve. Ma Long got a bit of those but not his main weapon. His main weapon is his forhand and counter loop. Opponent will study Ma Long's game and stop giving him direct opportunity. You cannot compare Ma Long result with his teammates. They know each other too well and thus always ended up in rallying game which to Ma Long's advantage due to his powerful forehand.
 
That's my analysis. But on the other hand, he is world #1 and really deserves his place in the Olympic single which unfortunately don't due to politics.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:29am
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

Ma Long was totally outplayed; forehand, backhand, service. Sang Su was on fire and had the whole stadium supporting him. Epic match.
=======================================
 
Although the final result of the match was 4 to 1 with Ma Long won only one game, actually the match was almost 4 to 0.
 
Ma Long lucked out on that one game he won - he was behind 10 to 7.  He then saved 3 game-points to go into deuce, then again he saved one game-point during deuce.  Finally he pulled off and won that one game.  He was lucky not to get beat 4 to 0.
 
It seems anything can happen.  It was a huge upset nevertheless.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 3:32am
The last time the two played was at last year's China Open and, seriously, Lee didn't stand a chance for good reasons.  He took the loss to heart and came back strong this time.  A large part of his upsetting Ma Long is attributed to his short game, he kept his receive low and tight, and also threw in the Chiquita receive from time to time.  A conscious effort was made to cover his wide forehand, so any flick coming across was well in check.  This alone leveled the playing ground.  Add to that Ma Long kept spilling out those half-long serves that begged for killing.  So nothing out of the blue here, Lee Sang Su forced his own game on Ma Long and he failed to respond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonyer1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 4:18am
Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.

Edited by jonyer1980 - 05/19/2012 at 4:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 4:57am
The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately. I have never expected China to win the Gold at the London games and find it even less likely the closer we get
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:42am

Lee Sang Su lost to Chan Kazuhiro.

It is better for Ma Long to relax now since there is no Olympics for him, but he should target his form for the next year, much more important competition... Anyone can win the Olympics with a bit of luck, and that is why the Olympic tournament will be so interesting, but in the World Championship even entering first 8 will be extremely difficult...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:50am

 

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately.

I can only see that they invested into rule changes... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:59am
Originally posted by Vladovich Vladovich wrote:

 

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

The rest of the world have invested a lot of time and thought into finding flaws in the Chinese teams game lately.

I can only see that they invested into rule changes... 



+1 lol

Olympic is huge pressure for all players and not just for Chinese player. Some may say Chinese players will always have the most pressure, as they have no choice but win.

So it will be an interesting Olympic imo. Will we see the Chinese players rise to the occasion, or are we going to see upsets by weaker players, or are we going to see the main threats crown champions?

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vladovich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:29am
 
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).

I think that ittf postponed the new ball rule for 2013 or 2014, not sure Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Vladovich Vladovich wrote:

 
Originally posted by ZApenholder ZApenholder wrote:

 

No matter who wins, 2012 is history and all the players need to relearn how to play with the new ball (rule change yet again).

I think that ittf postponed the new ball rule for 2013 or 2014, not sure Big smile



It wasn't postponed.
The ball will be available after Olympics, the old ball can be used until 2014 (I don't have the exact date now).

Sooner or later all players need to learn the new ball - for the future. This is just like any other rule change that happened. (And in Chinese player sake, we saw many players retired in conjunction with rule changes....)

Not sure what balls they are going to use in 2013 world champs and 2014 world teams. I'm sure 2016 Olympic will be new balls by then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jinlai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 8:17am
It is good for China to lose some games and this proves that they are not always invincible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 8:30am
Ya, if I was CNT management, I would instruct CNT to loose certain matches, otherwise ITTF will start a worse anti-China domination campaign than what we have seen already.

So what I would do is, make sure we work out that the Chinese players are never world number 1, maybe only from ranking 4/5 onwards, and let other countries players always be 1~3.

But when there is major tournament (pro tour grand final, Olympic, World Champ, World Teams), then they can go get all the medals.

Cause ITTF plans over the past 10~20 years to end Chinese domination isn't working at all. The other countries plans to end Chinese domination isn't working "fully", so only China can end Chinese dominations (my conspiracy plans lol).

But coming back to this game, all credit to the Korean player, he deserved all the points and the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:37am
The Korean played very very well but Ma Long didn't feel like Ma Long. He just sorta fell apart after a while.
It could just be a slump though, we'll see. He has a couple of months to snap out of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:45am
Ratings Central Ranking:
 
Ma Long ----- #1
Lee Sang Su ----- #60
Chan Kazuhiro ----- #90
================
 
Strange outcome:
#60 beat #1, then #60 lost to #90.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 10:54am
Forget Ma Long, Fang Bo lost to Persson XD  or Mizutani losing to Joon Jaryoung.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZApenholder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 11:02am
I would say Korean open is more difficult than Olympics lol.
So many upsets (lower rank player beating highing ranked player), and so many injuries, Joo, Guo Yan, Guo Yue....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:06pm
I watched the match and I must say that I didn't think Ma Long was really outplayed. His form and his mental state seemed to be the main elements leading to a loss. Not to say that Lee Sung Su was not playing well. I think he played up and remained in the match in accordance with his strategies and tactics. So the win is well deserved, but I would not call it outplayed.

First, the score. In the second game, Ma Long was up 10-8 and lost in a deuce. I think if he would have won that game, his mental state would have been much stronger. Losses in a deuce are also pretty much anybody's game. Lee Sung Su won a few extra points on luck ( like being 2-0 in game 2 against Ma Long's serve on 2 net pushes ). He was also very close in game 4, where he had a chance to take the match to 2-2, but failed. So to me, it was a close match.

Ma Long's mental game was really off. It is visible by his lack of motivation. Another indicator that he was off is the amount of short Ma Long's serves that trailed long, allowing Lee Sung Su to attack very hard. There were very few long rallies - an indication that he was unable to open up the game, probably due to his mind wondering off somewhere else. Usually, he was able to put up a much tougher fight.

Regarding the tactics. I think Lee Sung Su has been training properly against some recent development in table tennis, specifically in how the Chinese team gains initiative early in the game - backhand flip off a service return. The difference is that every time Ma Long returned the serve this way, the Korean player did not merely defend the flip with his backhand or tried to attack it with his forehand. Both of these options would have allowed Ma Long to fight back, because these type of responses from opponents play into Ma Long's attacking strengths. However, a quick off the bounce backhand attack - fast with little spin, gave Ma Long trouble. It seems Ma Long is a lot more comfortable in countering a spiny ball to his backhand, rather than a flatter, faster ball. Hence he put a lot of his backhand counters into the net.

Regarding coach's deciphering Chinese game.... I think that Chinese players play patterns. They drill those patterns very well and alternate them. They also have a good counter loop, counter attacking training allowing them to gain an advantage in those points when the rallies open up past the combinations and patterns they train. Because the Chinese players drill their patterns so much, it seems that in pressure they are unable to deviate from those patterns to find a different way to win. They rely on coaches for changes in strategy and tactics. I think this system is very efficient, because the patterns are so consistently good and the players are so strong, but, this makes the players very predictable - every match the patterns are identical. So, a smart coach from another country can recognize and figure out how to counter this style of play and gain an advantage. The trick is teaching his player to win against Chinese style of play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 1:29pm
I think  Lee Sang Su has been training specifically to take on Ma Long for a long time now, hoping for their eventual match.  Who doesn't want to have a chance at hitting a smash at #1.  I don't think Ma Long trained specifically to take on Lee Sang Su, yet.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opinari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:19pm
Originally posted by Leshxa Leshxa wrote:

Regarding coach's deciphering Chinese game.... I think that Chinese players play patterns. They drill those patterns very well and alternate them. They also have a good counter loop, counter attacking training allowing them to gain an advantage in those points when the rallies open up past the combinations and patterns they train. Because the Chinese players drill their patterns so much, it seems that in pressure they are unable to deviate from those patterns to find a different way to win. They rely on coaches for changes in strategy and tactics. I think this system is very efficient, because the patterns are so consistently good and the players are so strong, but, this makes the players very predictable - every match the patterns are identical. So, a smart coach from another country can recognize and figure out how to counter this style of play and gain an advantage. The trick is teaching his player to win against Chinese style of play.

I think this is a problem more for Ma Long than for other CNT players. Ma Long's mental game used to be a little rough, but he had seemed to overcome this problem last year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ejmaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by jonyer1980 jonyer1980 wrote:

Chinese coaches are trying to destroy Ma Long.  I believe he´s not feeling motivated and upset/dissapointed because of his discard for OG at singles event.
 
I also think Ma Long's motivation is zero since he was discarded from the OG singles event.
 
btwy, koki was a little destroyed by the old and close to retire Ma Lin. I do not understand how it is possible if he was in an unstoppable progression. something is happening here.


Edited by ejmaster - 05/19/2012 at 3:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 5:26pm
Agree that ML condition has dropped recently which co incides with the Olympic rejection. They did it for womens singles so why not mens. Too late now but must have been hugely disappointing for him, having a reaction to that is totally understandable
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