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Korbel Speed vs P500

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    Posted: 05/21/2012 at 12:25am
Anyone has tried Korbel Speed and P500? I am interested of how these two blades compared.

Are they similar? Which one is more flexible? better for blocking? Smashing? Loop?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 1:01am
They are different.  P500 is like Offensive Classic, but with koto as outer ply.  It is koto - spruce - ayous - spruce - koto.  It is about 0.2 mm thicker than OC.  Thus it is faster and still retains the catapult effect (compared to ordinary OC).

Korbel Speed is like ordinary Korbel, but again, with koto outer ply.  It is koto - limba - ayous - limba - koto.  It is about 0.2 mm thinner than Korbel.  It is faster and oddly (despite thinner) stiffer compared to Korbel.  It is pretty linear though (does not have catapult effect).

Now, comparing Korbel Speed vs P500.   In term of speed, Korbel Speed is faster than P500. It is more stable for blocking and hitting, although it is still good for looping.  P500 is a more a looping blade, although it's not too bad for blocking or hitting.

I would say that Korbel Speed is over priced.  Better get ordinary Korbel.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 1:47am
wow thanks doraemon.. this is exactly kind of information I am looking for...

I love my P500 for its trampoline looping effect and not too bad for smashing.. it doesn't feel mushy...
But I am having trouble while blocking... maybe because P500 being a flexible blade..

I have tried many limba outer ply.. and I don't like it... I really like koto outer ply.. It feels alive...

From your answer, Korbel Speed is probably what I am looking for..

My question is do I lose a lot of looping capability if I switch to Korbel Speed? Do I lose the trampoline effect?

I play more P500 and OC like blades.. but never try Petr Korbel... thanks...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 2:42am
OK.  You will gain more speed with Korbel Speed during slow and medium shot, but during fast shot (big swing), it does not have the trampoline effect that P500 has (because as far as I remember, Korbel Speed is rather stiff, but not carbon stiff).  Thus on fast shot, P500 is probably a bit faster.  But Korbel Speed is rather linear, so during fast shot, if you swing big, it will be fast also.

Regarding looping, I remember Korbel Speed loops as easily as ordinary Korbel, but with more speed.  So it is still a good looping blade, but does not have distinct trampoline effect like P500 has.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 2:48am
Thanks... I think I should try Petr Korbel like blades since I never try them... to know why so many people like Korbel over OC like blades.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 2:50am
I need to add one important thing:  Weight does have effect on speed.

My OC is 83 grams, my P500 is 88 grams.  So given the same parameter, P500 must be faster due to bigger momentum.  Besides, OC is only 5.5 - 5.6mm while P500 is around 5.7 - 5.8 mm.

My Korbel is 89 grams (around 5.9 mm) , but my Korbel speed is 96 grams (around 5.7 mm)!!!

Now, back to your problem (it is everybody's problem):
You want a good looping blade (usually either soft or flexible), then usually it is not too good for blocking.
You want a good blocking blade (usually stiff and can be soft / hard), then usually it is not too good for looping.

You want the medium of medium (good for almost anything, but does not excel in anything).  According to Chinese Article that was translated by Gekogark, the neutral blades are:
Butterfly Petr Korbel and Donic Persson Powerplay.

Now, Petr Korbel is head heavy because the handle is so small.  So even I like Petr Korbel, I end up not using it because I hate the handle (I have 2:  one is FL and one is Conic).  I have hold the AN version, it is quite alright but still small.  ST is better but BTY only makes Korbel FL now.  The minimum weight lately is around 93 grams and most are around 95 grams.

Donic Persson Powerplay is OK, but you need to get the 83 - 85 grams copy, because you can get up to 97 grams Powerplay.  I know because I weighed few of them.  It is 7-ply but you can only see 5-ply because they use thin foil (no one knows what it is), and the thickness is only 5.8 mm.

Korbel Speed is a good blade, I just don't think want to spend so much money on it.  I got it when it was still cheap.  It's not cheap now.
 


Edited by doraemon - 05/21/2012 at 2:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 2:57am
By the way, if you like P500 and OC, why you don't try Stiga Offensive Wood NCT.  It is faster and stiffer (good for blocking) and yet it loops equally well.  So you retains similar characteristics of your current blade. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:02am
I have stiga offensive wood nct.. I have used it about a year.. It is quite light.. But I still like koto outer ply.. With P500 I feel that the ball produced kind of wild making it difficult for my opponent to block.. Are you saying korbel speed is similar to offensive wood nct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:07am
Originally posted by doraemon doraemon wrote:

I need to add one important thing:  Weight does have effect on speed.

My OC is 83 grams, my P500 is 88 grams.  So given the same parameter, P500 must be faster due to bigger momentum.  Besides, OC is only 5.5 - 5.6mm while P500 is around 5.7 - 5.8 mm.

My Korbel is 89 grams (around 5.9 mm) , but my Korbel speed is 96 grams (around 5.7 mm)!!!

Now, back to your problem (it is everybody's problem):
You want a good looping blade (usually either soft or flexible), then usually it is not too good for blocking.
You want a good blocking blade (usually stiff and can be soft / hard), then usually it is not too good for looping.

You want the medium of medium (good for almost anything, but does not excel in anything).  According to Chinese Article that was translated by Gekogark, the neutral blades are:
Butterfly Petr Korbel and Donic Persson Powerplay.

Now, Petr Korbel is head heavy because the handle is so small.  So even I like Petr Korbel, I end up not using it because I hate the handle (I have 2:  one is FL and one is Conic).  I have hold the AN version, it is quite alright but still small.  ST is better but BTY only makes Korbel FL now.  The minimum weight lately is around 93 grams and most are around 95 grams.

Donic Persson Powerplay is OK, but you need to get the 83 - 85 grams copy, because you can get up to 97 grams Powerplay.  I know because I weighed few of them.  It is 7-ply but you can only see 5-ply because they use thin foil (no one knows what it is), and the thickness is only 5.8 mm.

Korbel Speed is a good blade, I just don't think want to spend so much money on it.  I got it when it was still cheap.  It's not cheap now.
 

Yes this is exactly my problem... How to have the best of both world... Maybe I am dreaming... 

Another option is probably to make a custom blade.. OSP Virtuoso with koto outer ply?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zzz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:31am
Originally posted by Pongz Pongz wrote:

Another option is probably to make a custom blade.. OSP Virtuoso with koto outer ply?

You could give OSP Expert a try. Reminded me a lot of P500, only better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:51am
Hi zzz, I actually just bought OSP expert...Even though it is good close table an mid distance, I think I miss my koto feel.. And when I  smash lob I lose a lot of power.. The ball seem dies off rather quick...

Doraemon, I have one more question.. Do you have the dimension for the korbel speed (face not handle)? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 8:42am
According to Butterfly online, Korbel Speed info

Blade             Feel       Class   Plies  Weight  Blade Face  Thickness  Handle Dimensions (FL, ST)
Korbel Speed Medium Off        5W   89         158 x 152    5.6           100X24 100X22


Edited by Brainstorm69 - 05/21/2012 at 8:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 8:23pm
Thanks Brainstorm69...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 8:31pm
The black limba on the OSP Expert is just as hard or even harder than Koto, it's not a soft blade. Comparing back to back the Expert is similar but much better than a P500. Overall the plies on the Expert are harder.

Virtuoso with Koto would be an interesting blade........ I like this thread, this style of blade are really the elite of the elite in looping blades.


Edited by bluebucket - 05/21/2012 at 8:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:14am
bluebucket... I feel OSP Expert is softer than P500... I don't know is that because Koto is harder than black limba.. or is it because they have different other core plies?

Modified Virtuoso: Koto - Limba - Samba - Limba - Koto
Korbel Speed: Koto - Limba - Ayous - Limba - Koto

The middle ply is different i.e. Samba vs Ayous...

Maybe we can know roughly the difference of this modified combo by comparing Butterfly Petr Korbel vs OSP Virtuoso...  because that is the difference between them.. right? I'll have to search first the forum...

Also, imho, Koto is not only harder than normal limba but also give much more 'explosive'/'alive' experience.. e.g. I put Outlaw/Tensor/Tenergy rubbers on MMaze/OC CR and TBS/P500..

consistently, the combo felt much more alive, explosive, more click on koto outer ply than limba outer ply.. that gives me a lot of confidence...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:22am
Samba = Abachi = Ayous......Same wood, different names


Edited by doraemon - 05/22/2012 at 9:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doraemon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:24am
Actually my Persson Powerplay has koto as the outer ply.  However, compared to OC-CR with limba outerply (I also add 1 more layer of varnish), Powerplay feels kind of mushy.  OC-CR has this kind of sharp feeling, while powerplay feels muted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:25am
wow.. ok... so they are the same...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:32am
I really like Koto as a top ply myself, I have a custom blade with construction Koto-Limba-Ayous which plays very VERY well. Samba is just another name for Ayous, Samba/Ayous/Obeche/Abachi are all the same wood.

The P500 is Koto-Spruce-Ayous, the same as a Hurricane King or an old Stiga OC, I also have a hand made blade with this construction. These blades play similar to the Expert Limba-Limba-Ayous which is the same thickness and roughly the same headsize. The main difference in feel between these two similar popular constructions is that the Koto-Spruce version has a distinct extra bounce from the Spruce. You can feel it just as the ball leaves the blade while you are playing. Perhaps that is the feeling you enjoy more from the Koto-Spruce blades.

In that case you wont enjoy a Koto-Limba-Ayous blade quite as much which I'm guessing is what the Korbel speed is, I think what you are missing is the Spruce not the Koto. For me playing two near identical blades the Expert with the hard Black Limba-Limba-Ayous and the Koto-Limba-Ayous blade the Koto blade is definitely better on the backhand side but overall I can't separate the two blades on outright performance. Both have good and bad points, on the other hand they are the two best blades I own. If I preferred the extra kick Spruce gives then the Hurricane King might be my favourite.

If you were looking for a faster stiffer version of the P500 then Hurricane King 656 might be the blade you want?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:37am
I forgot one thing, the Koto-Spruce blades don't kick quite as hard as the Limba-Limba or Koto-Limba blades in the same thickness because spruce doesn't seem to rebound as hard from the flex, the Spruce blades make up for the kick from the flex with the bounce out of the Spruce, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to get across :)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 12:40am
Pongz, could I also ask what rubbers you are using on your Expert? the Expert plays best with a heavy rubber on the backhand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emihet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 1:07am
I PREFER THE P500 OVERALL IN ALL COMPARTMENTS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 1:58am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

Pongz, could I also ask what rubbers you are using on your Expert? the Expert plays best with a heavy rubber on the backhand


I use Tenergy 25 FH on P500 whereas I use Galaxy Sun FH on OSP Expert...

To be fair, I'll try Tenergy 25 FH on OSP expert...

Now I have to digest what you have written before...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 2:07am
Ok that sounds fair, The Galaxy rubbers are ok for an intermediate player but they are worlds behind Tenergy or the Tensors as fair as high performance rubbers go. T25 should be something nice on it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 2:33am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

I forgot one thing, the Koto-Spruce blades don't kick quite as hard as the Limba-Limba or Koto-Limba blades in the same thickness because spruce doesn't seem to rebound as hard from the flex, the Spruce blades make up for the kick from the flex with the bounce out of the Spruce, I hope you can understand what I'm trying to get across :)?


bluebucket, can you decipher this again? I am a bit slow here... :)

Also hurricane 656, isn't that very expensive blade?... Is it the same as Hurricane Hao?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 2:48am
Yes it's very expensive, it's not the same as the Hurricane Hao. I just though it might be about the composition you are looking for. Spruce is a kind of soft and bouncy wood, like Balsa except not quite that much.

When you hit with those blades that have Spruce in the 2nd ply the ball bounces out of the Spruce, it's a springy wood (springs back from compression). If you have Limba in the 2nd play you don't feel that extra bounce. Also because Spruce is a softer wood those blades don't hold has much power when they are flexed as the Limba blades. If you could imagine a branch of softwood flexed and then let go in your face.. it wouldn't hit you has hard as a wood with more torque flexed the same amount.

I'm talking about a difference that is small but still clearly noticeable to me when I'm playing, if you discount the difference in feel both types of blades have similar performance. For me Expert vs P500 with the same rubbers the Expert is more powerful far from the table because of the stronger kick on flex, the P500 maybe slightly better or more consistent at the table. Try a good rubber on the Expert first and see how you feel about the blade then. After that you might know more about the exact qualities you want in a blade. When you have some good and heavy rubbers on the Expert you should feel it kick in your hand after each loop, especially after it's been used for while to loosen it up


Edited by bluebucket - 05/22/2012 at 2:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:40am
wow.. I got you.. where do all you people learn all these kind of stuff? Clap

When I smash lob with OSP Expert, the ball dies off very quickly after the first bounce...

Could it be because of the rubber? It does feel soft... I use Tenergy 25 on the backhand... I just haven't flip it and try it on forehand...

P500 feels solid when smashing lob... but TBS is even better I think.. the ball goes sort of accelerating  after first bounce..

That's why I like koto.. but you reckon it is the spruce that gives the extra kick...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:58am
Well lets not get into the TBS that's a whole other story and kind of blade. Try T25 on the forehand of the Expert. The Expert wont ever smash as well as a TBS and not really as well as a P500 either since it's more flexible and flexible blades are not happy while smashing. What it should do is out loop either of them easily, especially the TBS.

You only learn these things from trying a lot of blades and paying attention to the ball feeling and yes it's definitely the Spruce that gives the extra bounce out of the wood, all Spruce 2nd ply blades have that feeling, try bouncing a ball on a bare YEO one time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 7:57pm
ok I'll try Tenergy 25 with OSP Expert tomorrow...

Yesterday I was thinking... like what Doraemon had said... yes, I want the blade that able to loop well like P500 but at the same time hit/blocking like 7 plies (I haven't tried Petr Korbel like blades)..

But to be precised, I was actually looking for more stable block on my backhand... My fh block is acceptable (of course it is better if I use 7 plies)...

so I am thinking, why don't I make a customized dual speed blade for example...

1. Koto - spruce - ayous - Limba - Koto
2. Koto - spruce - ayous - Limba - Limba
3. Koto - Limba - ayous - Limba - Limba

What do you think guys? is it silly? will it work? which one of the three do you think will work?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 2:44am
you actually want perfect blade (stiff and flexy, soft and hard, depends of shot you want to make ) :D But, if it is so easy to make it, dont you think it would exist already and everyone would already play with it?
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