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New Poly ball review

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    Posted: 05/28/2012 at 8:39pm
I just got hold off one of the new balls, with a big thanks to my friend William Henzel!Thumbs Up

I've checked the measurements with a vernier, and one positive is that the ball is indeed perfectly round, within 0.01mm! Comparing that to the other balls I've checked, that's significantly better, as some of the other varied a little over 0.10mm.

Looking at the balls side by side, you can tell with the naked eye that it's bigger. :( :( :( Taking an average of measurement of other 3* balls I had lying around, the new one is about 0.6mm bigger, measuring about 40.20mm. I'll post some of my measurements later.

I had a short hit with it, and well I didn't like it at all, and I doubt any long pip players or spin based players are going to like it.

I didn't have much trouble adjusting to a regular counter-hitting warmup. The ball felt quite a bit more bouncy, but the speed and angle that it came off the bat was pretty similar. The sound is odd... it does indeed sound like a broken ball, but that's not such big deal. I can't say the ball felt any heavier... lighter if anything, but mostly just different... you tend to feel it less on you bat.

When I tried to put heavy spin on the ball, it had quite a bit less dip, and my practice partner who normally has trouble keeping those down, seemed to have no trouble at all. In other words there was either less spin on the ball, or the ball reacted much less on his bat. When I tried my side-spin loop (hook), which is a shot I greatly enjoy and love to see the curve and kick, I was very disappointed... almost no curve at all, and very little kick! The lack of curve pretty much implies there's just less spin on the ball.. either I'm generating less or it wears off more quickly...

Blocking with the pips against topspin...well the ball bounces higher with less spin reversal... no doubt about it. The extra bounce off the ball made it much harder to keep the ball low and shorter...keeping it low was the biggest problem. Attacking backspin gave me trouble too... there was probably less spin on the ball in the first place, so there was less to reverse, and most of the ball went long. I needed more of a swiping action (which I tend to do against no-spin balls) to keep them on. Similarly with aggressive pushing... either the spin was not there in the first place, or the reversal was not there to bring the ball down. All in all my shots were much less deceptive and effective.

For my game this is great disappointment, as I rely on heavy spin with my forehand, and controlling the pace and manipulating spin with the BH pips. Both of these are significantly less effective. Sure I might be able to adjust to all this, but it might mean my current 'style' is no longer viable at my level, and I might need to adjust my game to be competitive again. OuchOuchOuch


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 8:48pm
Very interesting review, haggisv. Thanks a lot! 

I am sorry to hear it may affect your game negatively. Cry

Do you think that it will have the effect that the ITTF (allegedly) intends? That is, with less dynamics in spin it seems like there will be fewer errors and, perhaps, longer rallies. Do you anticipate this to be the case, based on your experience?

Or, is the spin so poor that looping itself will be hard and we'll be back to the hardbat days (top of the bounce or you're in trouble)? 

Thanks again!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 8:55pm
Man if this ball is really as spinless as everyone says I'm switching to short pips both sides ;(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdoodzki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 9:05pm
as a short pips user in the backhand, this sounds promising
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 9:20pm
Yes I think short pip players stand to benefit from this change. The balls are not spin-less, there's just less spin and less curve on the ball. I think the Elite levels will adjust and the impact won't be so great... but the impact on us mere mortals is likely to be much greater, as we often rely on one or two big weapon to win our game, and if these weapon are no longer effective we'll need to make a major change to retain the same level of play.

Defenders will suffer, and so will spin based players... As these types of players often produce the most exciting types of games (ie an attacker vs defender or ralleys with great curving balls!), I think it make the game much more boring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 9:28pm
More likely, everyone will use Tenergy now, to compensate for less spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrdoodzki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 9:53pm
im not sure, but i think the rubbers that have been released this year seem to be spin oriented, ex donic bluefire, etc. i think these are the answers to the new ball
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 11:30pm
They may have to come up with a whole new range of rubbers that can make these balls do what they used to do Confused Both the manufacturers and the ITTF would love that!Handshake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2012 at 11:40pm
Is it the final product or is it still under trial ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 12:09am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the defining feature of these balls is the fact that it has no seam.

Now imagine a baseball player trying to throw a curve ball without stitching on the ball.

I understand that this is a bit of a straw man argument (as the internal seam in a TT ball does not provide the same sort of traction that external baseball stitching provides).

But if I had to guess, I suspect that the a celluloid TT ball's weight distribution cannot truly be regular and even, and that the internal seam plays a role in the production of spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 12:53am
I don't think the seam plays a significant part, or otherwise the spin and flight curve would be different depending on which part of the ball you make contact with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 12:54am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tuco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 1:21am
Give it some time.  either they will make the ball better (spinnier) or they will make new spinnier rubbers, or both.
don't buy a big batch of rubbers now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 1:26am
Better buy 10 gross of balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 1:43am
Thanks for the review Haggis. I thought the introduction of the ball has been delayed because it is not finalised yet, maybe I was wrong. If it stays like this I will be considering Spinart and Tenergy or other heavy spin rubbers that are produced as Spin is a big part of my game and also serving. I also like to do heavy sidespin loop on forehand. How is serving with the new ball?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 1:52am
I use JUIC 999 turbo, which is spinnier than Tenergy for my stroke, and I still wasn't getting much curve on the ball.

I don't think we can just assume the balls will get better, since I don't think they would have released these balls unless they thought they were close to the final thing.

Note that the ITTF have already voted in these new balls, AND set a date for their introduction, AND notified manufactures that the new ball will com into effect, all WELL BEFORE the balls have been finalised! So even if they can't come up with a decent ball, chances are the manufacturers won't be making the old balls anymore. Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Imago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 1:59am
Why not? If there is standing demand, there will be also mass production.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GeneralSpecific Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 2:06am
Thanks for the review! From Henzell's review it seems like the spin is reduced when close to the table but away from the table the spin is the same. Would you agree with this claim?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 2:10am
Originally posted by Imago Imago wrote:

Why not? If there is standing demand, there will be also mass production.

Because national associations will blindly follow the ITTF, and so clubs will be forced to use them. Who want to practice with a ball that's different from that used in competition?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 2:11am
Originally posted by GeneralSpecific GeneralSpecific wrote:

Thanks for the review! From Henzell's review it seems like the spin is reduced when close to the table but away from the table the spin is the same. Would you agree with this claim?

I've only had a short session with the ball, but will looks more carefully next time. I noticed much less curve on all my loops... Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 2:22am
We are entering a whole new era of TT with this ball, and if you are a novice it won't matter, everyone else is gonna hate it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peter79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 2:39am
So the sticky H3 still not capable to produce spin on the the ball? probably H8 or H9 will haha...
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thanks for the review
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 3:39am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

I just got hold off one of the new balls, with a big thanks to my friend William Henzel!Thumbs Up

I've checked the measurements with a vernier, and one positive is that the ball is indeed perfectly round, within 0.01mm! Comparing that to the other balls I've checked, that's significantly better, as some of the other varied a little over 0.10mm.

Looking at the balls side by side, you can tell with the naked eye that it's bigger. :( :( :( Taking an average of measurement of other 3* balls I had lying around, the new one is about 0.6mm bigger, measuring about 40.20mm. I'll post some of my measurements later.

I had a short hit with it, and well I didn't like it at all, and I doubt any long pip players or spin based players are going to like it.

I didn't have much trouble adjusting to a regular counter-hitting warmup. The ball felt quite a bit more bouncy, but the speed and angle that it came off the bat was pretty similar. The sound is odd... it does indeed sound like a broken ball, but that's not such big deal. I can't say the ball felt any heavier... lighter if anything, but mostly just different... you tend to feel it less on you bat.

When I tried to put heavy spin on the ball, it had quite a bit less dip, and my practice partner who normally has trouble keeping those down, seemed to have no trouble at all. In other words there was either less spin on the ball, or the ball reacted much less on his bat. When I tried my side-spin loop (hook), which is a shot I greatly enjoy and love to see the curve and kick, I was very disappointed... almost no curve at all, and very little kick! The lack of curve pretty much implies there's just less spin on the ball.. either I'm generating less or it wears off more quickly...

Blocking with the pips against topspin...well the ball bounces higher with less spin reversal... no doubt about it. The extra bounce off the ball made it much harder to keep the ball low and shorter...keeping it low was the biggest problem. Attacking backspin gave me trouble too... there was probably less spin on the ball in the first place, so there was less to reverse, and most of the ball went long. I needed more of a swiping action (which I tend to do against no-spin balls) to keep them on. Similarly with aggressive pushing... either the spin was not there in the first place, or the reversal was not there to bring the ball down. All in all my shots were much less deceptive and effective.

For my game this is great disappointment, as I rely on heavy spin with my forehand, and controlling the pace and manipulating spin with the BH pips. Both of these are significantly less effective. Sure I might be able to adjust to all this, but it might mean my current 'style' is no longer viable at my level, and I might need to adjust my game to be competitive again. OuchOuchOuch




a question: you were using thor's on fh, right?

Some thoughts: usually when you have less of something, that something becomes more valuable. when you have less spin, spin becomes more valuable. when both you and your opponent have less spin, having a bit extra spin should make a big difference. so spin oriented rubbers (in particular tacky rubbers) should become more favored, and short pips less favored.  I don't see how short pips should be favoured: since I can't generate as much spin as before, give me short pips so I can generate even less?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 3:43am
Short pips are favoured because the ball is more bouncy (making it harder to keep it down), not because there's less spin on the ball.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 3:46am
Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

Short pips are favoured because the ball is more bouncy (making it harder to keep it down), not because there's less spin on the ball.


I see, so we can say there are two conflicting effects, one that favors short pips, one that works against it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 4:09am
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

Short pips are favoured because the ball is more bouncy (making it harder to keep it down), not because there's less spin on the ball.


I see, so we can say there are two conflicting effects, one that favors short pips, one that works against it.

 We are probably going back to players employing a percentage game like the Japanese hitters of the 60's and 70's such as Mitsuri Khono, what stopped that style ultimately was heavy topspin. With less topspin and a steeper ball tragectory, meaning it bounces higher, the tidy more conservative flat slap will be as consistent as a loop drive, and as the ball is higher at peak, it does not require the same dip. Being a two wing spin looper, I'm just dreading the prospect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 4:11am
Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by haggisv haggisv wrote:

Short pips are favoured because the ball is more bouncy (making it harder to keep it down), not because there's less spin on the ball.


I see, so we can say there are two conflicting effects, one that favors short pips, one that works against it.

We are probably going back to players employing a percentage game like the Japanese hitters of the 60's and 70's such as Mitsuri Khono, what stopped that style ultimately was heavy topspin. With less topspin and a steeper ball tragectory, meaning it bounces higher, the tidy more conservative flat slap will be as consistent as a loop drive, and as the ball is higher at peak, it does not require the same dip. Being a two wing spin looper, I'm just dreading the prospect. I also think that its the final nail in the coffin of any form of defensive play.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2012 at 6:52am
I think  it could very well be the (lack of a) seam that makes the difference here.

A frisbee ring is good way to help show the difference it can make.
Thrown in a normal way the weight of the ring is located at right angle from the spinning axis with maximum distance to this axis corresponding to the radius.

Try throw the ring with a spinaxis in the plane of the ring it has different moment of inertia.

This means actively adressing same angular momentum to the ring would need a higher rotational frecquency then with all weight at furthest distance.

A normal throw the ring allows to adress more angular momentum with same spin.
The angular momentum is what gives the heavy spin feel not just the rotations per second.

Try throw a frisbee ring with an awkward angle the frisbee tends to seek the most stable position for preserving angular momentum which is also with the matrial at furthest distance to the rotational center. The ring will tend to go to a more stable (for frisbeering) orientation with keeps of  an unchanged direction of spin for all parts of the ring. This is just a less then ninety degree turn to make gradually with each spincycle. A ball due to it,s shape could be more "handy in this" then a ring because it has less air resistance to overcome.

A ball seam could then come of a bat spinning at an awkward angle but land on the table with the seammaterial at largest distance from the axis of rotation ; from centrifugal effect.
This makes the angular momentum the same but with less rotation per second the spin will carry further ; just as it carries far with a frisbee ring with lots of angular momentum for relatively low spin.

With a seamball, once a rallye "estabilshes" into a topspin topspin - or topspin backspin duell the spinning plane would be more or less constant (vertical as with a wheel) with the seam on the outeredge. Turning the spin direktion in a topspin-topspin duell (with keeping same spinning plane) this gives this heavy feeling of the ball "hanging into" the rubber. 

If this makes the difference factories could simulate a seam in produktion by making the centrifugal angular momentums on produktion slightly different.
They produce these balls with two rotational axis at ninety degrees. If both rotations are the same the ball becomes pointsymmetric. Make the spin for one axis ten percent higher/loser then other the ball will be more line symmetric ; more similarity to a celluloidball with a seam or a frisbeering.
Then they can (or could, assuming Icontek,s idea and my thoughts on this make sense) tune these balls this way to more similarity with current balls or maybe even improve current balls for this with sort of an ideal weight distribution.
Current balls are plane symmetric but not line or point-symmetric for weightdistribution. New balls are and one way or other this will always make a difference for playfeel.






 




Edited by mercuur - 05/29/2012 at 8:22am

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