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    Posted: 09/05/2012 at 11:34am
Is there any discernible benefit to using hide glue in making blades or is it just a fad?

Is there a list of popular blades made using hide glue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 11:39am

 Not sure but OSP blades may use hide glue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silva7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 11:51am
i am not sure how this glueing method works but it is often used to make Musical instruments like Guitars, Violins and other similar instruments. 
I think the Nittaku Violin, Acoustic and Tenor are made by hide glue method.
i thought that i read somewhere that OSP uses this method but i cannot confirm it. 
there are probably other smaller independent companies who use hide glue. Nittaku is the only mainstream company i know of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by slevin slevin wrote:

Is there any discernible benefit to using hide glue in making blades or is it just a fad?

Is there a list of popular blades made using hide glue?
OSP and the Nittaku blades made using hide glue are regarded as having some of the best feel among blades. I love my Acoustic. 
 
Hide glue adds to manufacturing costs because it is more sensitive to work with than normal glue and takes longer to cure, but the flip side is that is does not absorb vibrations like normal glue aka allows vibrations to pass through it. That's why it is popular in musical instruments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 2:07pm
but acoustic vibrates like crazy in my hand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 2:46pm
 Acoustic gets my vote for best feel good blade of the century. I don't have one but played with my buddies...my ejing never stops. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 2:58pm
Hide glue actually dampens vibrations. That's why Butterfly Primorac and Korbel have more vibration and Acoustic and Virtuoso+.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

Hide glue actually dampens vibrations. That's why Butterfly Primorac and Korbel have more vibration and Acoustic and Virtuoso+.



Maybe only certain frequencies. Lots of newer stiga blades still vibrate, but they are not as clear feeling... More noise than signal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

Hide glue actually dampens vibrations. That's why Butterfly Primorac and Korbel have more vibration and Acoustic and Virtuoso+.
 So your view is a 100% different from the other posters?
just asking because we all want some information here
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

Hide glue actually dampens vibrations. That's why Butterfly Primorac and Korbel have more vibration and Acoustic and Virtuoso+.
 So your view is a 100% different from the other posters?
just asking because we all want some information here

Yep. I have most of these blades in both shakehand and penhold versions, as well as the Violin that also uses hide glue. The blades using hide glue has noticeably less high frequency vibrations. The vibrations are dampened while the real feedback is still there. The Acoustic especially have very little vibration compared to other 5-ply wood blades. The Petr Korbel has way more vibration under a similar composition.

You can also compare the OSP Expert to other 5.4mm wood blades like Yasaka Sweden Classic. The OSP has far less vibration (though some is still there, and I like it).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/05/2012 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by BMonkey BMonkey wrote:


OSP and the Nittaku blades made using hide glue are regarded as having some of the best feel among blades. I love my Acoustic. 

OK, so hide glue implies less vibrations. Does that equate to better feel? Question is important as the price differential between hide-glue and other blades seems to be quite large.

OSP and Nittaku have hide glue and good feel. But is the good feel due to the hide glue or due to whatever other reason why (even non-hide glue) blades have good feel?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2012 at 3:20am
hi,

i'm a blade maker myself and i use hide glue in my all-wood blades exclusively. i use it because it gives the best feel allthough it is a pain in the ass to work with and the curing times are extra long (several weeks).

the special feeling is due to the feedback. you feel the impact of the ball clearly, even if it is an off blade or you only touch the ball softly. i noticed that feeling also in old stiga johansson blades, osp blades and the blades a friend makes.

other commercial blades that i know (butterfly primo, stiga all classic, off classic, ebenholz v, yasaka extra,...) have less feeling. that means, you don't feel the ball if you touch it lightly, but the blades have distracting vibrations if you hit harder. 



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http://nebula-blades.jimdo.com/nebula-blades/fertigung/
This  (in German, only few pages are in English) explains more.
Just as Borko he (forumname of this bladebuilder is Liquid sky) mentions that the glue layers are more open.
Wood is open also and a lamina becomes more homogenous when the layers are not sealed and seperated from each other. The openness of wood and glue continues through the whole lamina.

Quicker chemical hardening industrial glues tend to sufficate the wood (more) because the applied glue has no solvent and stays as applied.
The solvent in hideglue (water) is aprox fifty percent of glue weight.  Still it is not liquid then at roomtemperature. It,s a gel as jelly pudding (basically the same stuff ; glutin). It has to be warmed up upto maximum 70 degree celsius to become workable.
When it cools it gels again.
It,s just as much a closed layer then as a chemical glue. But drying it all opens up again.

It has better accoustic resonance through the plies then. Seperate  frequencies (feeling through all different plies seperated with sealant layers) disappear.
Borko could also say then  : "my five ply blades play more homogenous as one ply blades".

The openness also implies there is certain accoustic space. Same as a ball falling on a table it has accoustic space of the room to hear it at a distance. All possible frequencies and sounds can make use of that.
It feels the ball more clear on the blade. Where it is and and also more spin feels different then less. That,s informative feedback.

Other solvent woodglues don,t have this gelling feature. The glue stays liquid as it dries for much longer and glue canwill leak into the veneers at both sides. Soft woods become harder and part of the glue becomes disfunktional for bindingstrength. To compensate that it needs more glue and the problem of harming the woodfeel comes back with it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2012 at 9:46am
Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

Hide glue actually dampens vibrations. That's why Butterfly Primorac and Korbel have more vibration and Acoustic and Virtuoso+.
 So your view is a 100% different from the other posters?
just asking because we all want some information here

Yep. I have most of these blades in both shakehand and penhold versions, as well as the Violin that also uses hide glue. The blades using hide glue has noticeably less high frequency vibrations. The vibrations are dampened while the real feedback is still there. The Acoustic especially have very little vibration compared to other 5-ply wood blades. The Petr Korbel has way more vibration under a similar composition.

You can also compare the OSP Expert to other 5.4mm wood blades like Yasaka Sweden Classic. The OSP has far less vibration (though some is still there, and I like it).
It sounds like you are using the word "vibration" in a different sense. When I say "vibration" I mean 'oscillation of the molecules of the wood' and when you say "vibration" it sounds like you are saying 'bad feeling you don't want in a table tennis racket'. One way is in the scientific sense, the other is an opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/06/2012 at 11:08am
can someone please explain what is hide glue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cotdt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2012 at 2:47am
animal lovers would not like hide glue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2012 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by tsanyc tsanyc wrote:

can someone please explain what is hide glue?

Fatt,
 
Thanks for the links.  Wow, Hide=Animal skin!  Hmm, why would anyone want to use blades w/HG?  It disolves in H2O (sweat).... might not be a good idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/07/2012 at 4:07pm
If it would dissolve, do you really think anybody would make blades with it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2014 at 2:43pm
So, which Nittaku blades (besides Acoustic & Violin) use hide glue? Do their cheaper blades (like Ludeack) use it as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2014 at 7:23pm
It seems like se7en tried to make some and they delaminated a little easier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2014 at 7:24pm
I think it's probably well used by artisans, but I'm skeptical it can be used well in a mass production blade setting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IanMcg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/10/2014 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I think it's probably well used by artisans, but I'm skeptical it can be used well in a mass production blade setting. 

It seems like something that would really require the attention of a hand-made manufacturing process to bring out the best performance and quality
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kuklovod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2014 at 5:17pm
And what about fish glue? also natural and used in violin making - has anybody tried it?
i want to give it the ball in my next pf4 clone design (http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26904&sid=a82a35d5840d19ca954ed15564c299b4).

any opinion is appreciated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Iskandar Taib Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2014 at 8:50pm
I don't think it dissolves in sweat, but it's prone to attack by bacteria when damp. One advatage is it can be softened and loosened using heat (advantageous when repairing furniture) but so can PVA.
 
I think most factory made blades use some sort of heat melt adhesive - you can see it being applied by roller on the Butterfly video. The sandwich of veneer then goes into a heated press.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/19/2014 at 9:43pm

Hide glue was used in the past for building acoustic guitars. Some swear these instruments sound better. Don't know how this would apply to table tennis blades but may offer a different feel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/20/2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

hi,

i'm a blade maker myself and i use hide glue in my all-wood blades exclusively. i use it because it gives the best feel allthough it is a pain in the ass to work with and the curing times are extra long (several weeks).

the special feeling is due to the feedback. you feel the impact of the ball clearly, even if it is an off blade or you only touch the ball softly. i noticed that feeling also in old stiga johansson blades, osp blades and the blades a friend makes.

other commercial blades that i know (butterfly primo, stiga all classic, off classic, ebenholz v, yasaka extra,...) have less feeling. that means, you don't feel the ball if you touch it lightly, but the blades have distracting vibrations if you hit harder. 
I thought hide glue sets very quickly? So you have to develop an expertise to heat it to the correct temperature and apply it quickly before it sets. Didn't realize you have to let it cure for weeks.Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2014 at 6:22am
Dear jrscatman,

What are you exactly trying to say?
That the open time and the curing time of hide glue is identical?
That curing is not the right word for a glue that is solved in water?

I let it cure for weeks, because the blades don't feel right before.



Edited by Liquid Sky - 11/25/2014 at 6:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2014 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Dear jrscatman,
What are you exactly trying to say?
That the open time and the curing time of hide glue is identical?
That curing is not the right word for a glue that is solved in water?
I let it cure for weeks, because the blades don't feel right before.
I am not experienced in woodworking or hide glue. I was doing some research into blade making and wondered about hide glue. In my research on hide glue - it was mentioned hide glue you have to work with it very quickly. It was also mentioned there are various type of hide glue that gives you more time (I don't know the correct terminology) before it sets. Most of the applications was for furniture making and musical instruments. But they never mentioned it took weeks to cure - so I was surprised when you mentioned it. It is helpful to know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/26/2014 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by IanMcg IanMcg wrote:

Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I think it's probably well used by artisans, but I'm skeptical it can be used well in a mass production blade setting. 

It seems like something that would really require the attention of a hand-made manufacturing process to bring out the best performance and quality

Or advanced robotics and temperature control.
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