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Playing against short pips hitter |
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...
I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is... ROFL....
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NextLevel
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1. You did not answer any of my questions about the timing of these conversations. 2. If your argument was easily correct, they could have overwhelmed the world with two-sided pips players as well and yet did not do so. Or even one-sided C or J-Penners. Or maybe they can overwhelm the world with two-sided long-pips players. After all, equipment doesn't really matter. All that matters is that China has the resources to do whatever it wants. 3. I have attributed it to the superiority of double inverted play given the power that men have to project the ball over long distances. If you are right, someone will challenge the Chinese with a style that is not inverted. Let's wait and see. If there were more pips players on the CNT, I would agree with you. In this modern age, the dominance of a style can't just be because everyone is being dumb. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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power7
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You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community. If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China. If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already. It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument. If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already. Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly...
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NextLevel
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Thanks. Since my opinion is not just mine and is actually shared by players far better than myself and yourself, I think your position is in part sourced from your dislike of me and your use of pips on both sides.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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shay2be
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SPIN!
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Timo Boll ZLC
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NextLevel
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Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today. Name a left-hander in the top 10. See the difference? 3 beats none.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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speedy
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Today is your lucky day. I am a short-pips backhand player for years. I hit through almost anything, especially backspin. The more backspin you give me, the better I hit. I see that you have many good suggestions. I will sum it up and give away my secrets here: 1. Serve long, must be low, dead (no spin) ball to the backhand 2. Go to the elbow more #1 and #2 will not work 100% for sure. But here is #3 will work like a charm. Ready? 3. Go wide to the side of that backhand with medium speed. (Too slow: he will have time and be able to hit it through, Too Fast: all he has to to is stick his paddle out there and block. it's difficult but with good reflex he can do it). So, why go wide? and go more to the side? And why medium speed (alternate to slow one of those ball)? Medium speed: Usually short pips or any pips players rely on the speed of the ball. With medium speed going to him, he can hit, but he will must be really good (US rating 2200 and above) to be able to keep it consistent. Otherwise, he will hit into the net of those ball coming at him slower/lower than the others. Wide and Side: As we all know, pips has less spins than inverted. It's hard to go to the side and try to bend the ball back in. There is no spin on that pips to carry the ball back in. I find this one is very tricky for me to play against. 4. Short pips players are very comfortable staying in the middle of the table and play with you side-to-side. However, they don't like wide angle ball, and they don't like their opponent changing pace on the ball on them. Good luck, |
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SPEEDY
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Speedplay
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The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style? There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game. |
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pingpongpaddy
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I would just point out that I played double inverted in tournaments from 1968 -1988 with an 18 month intermission for black&black with LP circa 1978, and changed to play with sp from 1989 to 2013, and currently though I am a hitter, I do use a bh loop from time to time, even though I use sp! I have had many opportunies to play with and talk to, and be coached by, nationally ranked players over those years. I recognise that there are quite a few people on this forum who have not been as fortunate in their experience as I have, and yet because they are sensible intelligent people, with a well balanced outlook they are able to contribute in a positive interesting fashion, unlike yourself, and your boring determination to defend a position with pathetically weak arguments, made worse by your palpable lack of any experience or understanding of competitive tt at all. Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/28/2013 at 3:08pm |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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BH-Man
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Haha. We just had a French dude visit our Korea Foreign TTA and he defeated both our aces 3-0 and 3-1 using a control game with SP on both sides. Dude simply stayed in points and had a contract with the net. he will be a very valuable member in upcoming national tourneys. Our aces are rated 2200-2300+ but right now are playing significantly stronger, like National Div 1 and Div 2. This French dude rocked using SP on both sides.
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Korea Foreign Table Tennis Club
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ?? Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao.... Huge difference between top ten and major winner.... So no dun see a difference.... |
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JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
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Thx speedy 3 was a really good point.... Never thot about it that way
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tt4me
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I am still sticking with my assertion that it isn't the material that jrscatman is playing against, it is the style or the person. After the opponent hits the ball the ball doesn't care what kind of paddle the opponent used to hit it. The ball is 'committed' to a trajectory and spin. It seems that too much of this thread is about the material but what if jrscatman could learn to twiddle a little faster, chop better away from the table, chop block better when closer to the table etc. The new abilities would help him beat an assortment of players. A lot of the above suggestions are good ones but jrscatman must still be able to execute them.
Keeping the ball low is good advice against all styles of players. The same goes for hitting deep into the corners and at the elbow. It still isn't clear to me what jrscatman does with his LP 0X. The people I have played against with the Palio LP 0X pips use them for blocking at the table not chopping. If so, it appears that jrscatman has a problem blocking balls deep to the corners and at the elbow and keeping the balls low at the same time. I still think this is an execution problem. If these basic shots can be done then the spin reversal from the LPs should slow down the SP attacker a little bit.
About that. Yesterday I was playing against a Chinese cpen hitter and I was playing with my LP 0X. I place two balls very short of the opposite sides of the table. First to his FH and then to his BH. The cpen hitter surprised me because he I have never seen him move that fast. With a blind stab at the ball from below the table with the LP on back side of his paddle he got it back and I muffed it. A year ago or even 6 months ago that shot would have been impossible because he wouldn't even have tried. He would have complimented me on my ability to place the ball so well. The cpen hitter said it was a lucky shot. I said may be but it took effort to move that quickly from side to side. The point is that effort gives us more chances to be lucky. |
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NextLevel
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Timo Boll has won the World Cup twice, Xu Xin has won it once. Gatien was a lefty as well. You can push this lefty argument as long as you want to, but lefties are about 10% of the population so they usually exceed their general representation in most racquet sports. Stop revealing your inability to make good points against an opinion you disagree with.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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JohnnyChop
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LOL! I am glad you see my point bro, no one in their right mind would argue against left-handed players. Just like no one in their right mind should argue against pip out players... we have a difference of opinion and i am not necessarily trying to convert you... Arguing is a fun process and we can expand our knowledge in the process... but i think bottom line for me is that discriminating against legal pip-out players is against sportsmanship and even human decency... so i guess if i have hurt you feeling i am sorry... (some posts in these threads are getting really personal but i guess its all part of the fun on the forum) i think play whatever maximizes the your game, playing level or enjoyment... lefty, pip out or not its all fair under the rules... Mizutani i think is actually right handed, switched to playing lefty because i guess it made him a better player... In Li Xiao Dong's article on short pips he mentioned he switched 饶静文's bh to sp because it made her a better player... and no one can really say they made a bad move... like i said if it is legal then it is fair and shouldn't be discriminated against disregarding where the modern table tennis game is going... i understand they are trying to make the game more entertaining for TV (lp blocking is hard to enjoy because you can't see the spin variations on TV)... all the rule changes seems to have that goal in mind... But just like you shouldn't play amateur football like the NFL unless you want dead players... Amateurs' body is not conditioned to play at such high physically demanding level... LGL once remarked that 'one superstar will destroy a generation of amateurs imitators' and i think thats exactly why... Ultimately it is a different game that the pros and the amateur plays. So no matter where the modern game is going its ridiculous to let the pros dictate how we should play
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NextLevel
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+1000. Arguing is a fun process and I do not discriminate against pips players. I was coached by one, I sometimes practice against them with my current coach, I have pips on one of my rackets and have considered switching many times because I take the ball early, often can't and hate backing off the table and like to block the ball short. At my club, we have many pips players. I played one yesterday, and there is another who was very helpful in developing my backhand hit against underspin and in shortening my forehand stroke (ok, that one still needs some work). I remember when an older man (pips player) who was once one of the top players in the US was playing an inverted player about 10 to 15 years younger. The older man said "This inverted - you can just spin the ball - that is nothing. This pips require timing and technique." So the question of course was why was he using pips - apart from being used to them, they helped him play close to the table as he wasn't going to back up. But the problem was also that when hard looks were thrown at him, he couldn't always block them. That I don't think a Pips player can be world champion is based on the power in the men's game and the reaction times one has to have to consistently take the ball early. I do believe that pips champions can still exist in the women's game because the ball is slower and women can take the ball early, though as more powerful loopers go into the women's game, these pips players will have a harder time as well. I love watching Yi Shanfei play loopers all the time for that reason. And if I am considering using pips and have been considering using pips, I think it's fair to say that I have nothing against the surface. Those who use them put in many hours. I just think inverted is a superior surface because of the way men use their power. As for the personal posts, I can't take them too personally. Both players would probably beat me with a clipboard and don't like my attitude in general. I have learned a lot from both of them. We don't have to get along as long as we don't get too distracted. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tt4me
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Nextlevel, are any of the LP players you play against twiddlers? If so what is your reaction to twiddlers? This is a topic that hasn't been stressed too much in this thread but I strongly feel that LP and anti players should learn how to twiddle.
I think jrscatman should learn how to twiddle faster so he can twiddle in a rally. I know this is a different issue that how to play against SP players but if jrscatman is playing with LPs then he can catch many of his opponents off guard by twiddling. I read above that jrscatman doesn't think he can twiddle fast enough. It simply takes practice. I have seen people twiddle very fast and it is just a nervous habit. I practiced twiddling watching TV or doing something else. I wanted to be able to twiddle without even thinking about it. It helps to have straight round handles for twiddling. |
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jrscatman
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tt4me - thanks for the suggestion. I've actually started to twiddle more matches with lower level players. Quite a few times, I've been caught in the awful middle twiddle position - but is an interesting skill. I guess since I have LP & Smooth at my disposal - I wanted to get a clear understanding of what causes problems for short pip players and then try to develop a strategy based on that.
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NextLevel
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It all depends on the player - at the lower levels (1000-2000), short pips players are usually unable to hit at least one of the three main spins consistently, and it is usually underspin. But in your case, it might be the dead ball. I would be curious to know what happens when you serve him low long balls with your pips, both long and short.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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power7
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You answered your own question. SP was defeated by inverted looping. So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future? They have so many internal matches in those training sessions. So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it. There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China. So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center. There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in. If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it. And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc. But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident. It's because the style is that good. But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young. Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol.
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roundrobin
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Edited by roundrobin - 10/27/2015 at 12:45pm |
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NextLevel
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Thanks for the education.
Timothy doesn't have anything close to her experience. The more and more I learn about this sport, I realize that you have to have the right experiences, the right competition and access to the people with the right kind of information or you will struggle to get better.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pingpongpaddy
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You only have to study the history of the game:-
Japan introduced new levels of spin,power & athleticism to overcome Europes consistent allrounders Until this point every world champion chopped at least some of the time. Not any more!! China turns the world on its head with close to the table SPEED rocking back the Topspin of Japan Japan and Europeans take advantage of China's political troubles to produce a Topspin and Speed Glue revolution, we start to see shots that go round the net. Chinas response is to produce combi bat players and a new wave of sp hitters playing close to the table. SPEED is back To me this is a wonderful period. The swedish players produce a blend of power, spin and speed and all court movement Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/29/2013 at 8:30pm |
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inactive dotec carbokev
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Pongz
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imho, sometimes people don't realise that rule and equipment changes favor one style while hinder other styles... By knowing history, we can understand better the 'why'... Hopefully, this will help us to understand future game which always evolve...
For example, my coach was in the same team with Zhuan Ze Dong (~1950-'60)... He used very old bat, never put emphasize in technology, only technique... which is fine.... He always said in chinese "the old is not necessary worse, the new is not necessary better" imho, he is right but he is also wrong... His technique in his era emphasize hitting more than looping... In his era either the sponge was dead or not thick enough (Correct if I'm wrong).. so he always coach us to put emphasize on hitting.. whereas imho, the sponge and current technology favors topspin play... imho, the lesson to learn here is that table tennis is always evolving.. what may work today may not be working as effectively as before as time progresses... don't stuck in the old paradigm because we just simply following.. We need to go further by understanding the reason why people do certain things... nothing stay the same.. what is constant is change.... one day people will figure out how to beat china, beat certain style, etc... it is inevitable as LGL said... it is just a matter of time... ...cycle of life... :) |
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power7
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I really think you have to rethink what's going on in PRC when it comes to the TT scene. You really think the millions of PRC citizens playing TT for the sole purpose of beating another country. Maybe the CNT members think in sort of that mindset, but everyone else is trying to beat other PRC players for the most part. So if someone develops a SP strategy to beat 2 wing looping for a spot on the CNT, I don't see why coaching on the CNT would force that player to change to 2 wing inverted looping. The CNT coaches are old enough to remember SP game during its heyday. Seems like the more obvious reason, besides this great conspiracy against SP, is that 2 wing looping is really effective. PRC players with with hard tacky rubber vs their European/Japanese softy grippy rubber, which is evidence they have evolved 2 wing looping to the next level. Jiaqi Zheng was trained in the PRC. So I have no idea why your stuck on this PRC conspiracy against SP. Cause she obviously didn't listen to anyone coaching her in your hypothetical PRC 2 wing looping system. So instead of the CNT she ended up on the Beijing TT Team...ugh...loser...instead of beating other countries in TT, she has to get an MBA in the US. Yeah any reject from the PRC TT system usually does very well overseas, because they love playing TT. I don't see what that has to do with Timothy Wang who for the most part trained in the US. Just look at their world ranking difference if you think a game between them would result in anything different (there is about 300 ranking difference). Sure have Jiaqi Zheng (140) play Ma Long (1) which is only like a 139 ranking difference. If she wins, I'm sure everyone on the CNT will copy her style. So your argument just supports my position. SP is for old guys and girls...lol. |
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bbkon
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the best aRgument is that no lefty has been able to play a final in a wttc or OG in 16 years, wang liquin coach gave an explanation why lefties cant win but it was very complicated, indeed in china lefties are not succesful but women, there are a lot of stats about that
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JohnnyChop
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I think even the two wing power looper game is evolving too... Ma long and zhang jike are very different two wing loopers and they definitely are different from wang liqin....
I think maybe in a few years time we will arguing against fh dominate power loopers like ma long or all around loopers like samsonov and boll instead of short pips?? I don't think talking about where modern tt is evolving to have any merit in our argument.... Because I think the truth is if that's the case then all European styles including the great waldner is really phrasing out too... Then we move to a Chinese supremacist type of mentality?
Edited by JohnnyChop - 04/30/2013 at 10:04am |
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koshkin
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I have heard this argument about lefties before, but I am not sure I agree with it. Lefty Zhou Yu won the Chinese National Championship last year, which is probably the hardest tournament in the world to win. Hao Shuai, while seldom allowed to play outside, has been one of the top players in the Superleague for the last few years as well. ILya
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bbkon
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but how many lefty players have won the chinese nationals? |
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roundrobin
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*
Edited by roundrobin - 10/27/2015 at 12:44pm |
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