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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 8:01am
I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:39am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


In what year did you have these conversations that you use to make it sound like you have experts on your side?  These all sound like ancient history from the spin pips, speed glue and 38mm ball days, and not related at all to contemporary table tennis.

I will let the results speak for themselves.  You simply want to imagine a world in which inverted players are dominated by pips players because you can imagine it.  That world passed away in the 1990s and early 2000s with the rule changes affecting the aspect ratio of pips.

In the real world, pips players are dominated by inverted players simply because the power and spin that inverted can generate from various distances makes it hard to play with pips in the men's game.  That is the sense in which pips are inferior.  If we could change the rules back to what they were before 1998, we would be on a more level playing field.  But pips are now inferior.  It doesn't mean that one can't play well without them. It doesn't mean that they aren't a good surface.   It does mean that if you decide to go with pips instead of inverted, you simply decided to give up on playing a high spin game.  And a high spin game, given the power men possess, is going to be the dominant TT game unless the new ball does something to change that (unlikely).


NextLevel, maybe you should do a little research on what connections I have in table tennis before you doubt that I've any "expert" on my side? Wink  I've already spent more money to talk and play with CNT members and coaches than most posters and forum members combined (over $200K easy).  This is what's so great about internet forums... Everyone can be an instant internet expert challenging anyone regardless of credentials!  It's really funny... And sad because it makes the forum useless. 

Double-inverted Chinese loopers dominate China and the rest of the world right now because they have devoted (by far) the most resources to this style since the Waldner era.  You don't seem to understand that China has a history of producing "secret weapons" that consist of players with unique styles to unleash on the rest of the world.  They always had.  At this point in time, however, they no longer need to do so, as they could simply overwhelm all competition with new double-inverted loopers year after year, as the rest of the world still have no answer for them.  It's simply a numbers game for China at this point, so they just keep churning them out.  The Chinese are at their laziest point in time in history right now, and most vulnerable for the rest of the world to challenge them with a new style.  You, however, with no inside knowledge whatsoever about the Chinese system, keep attributing it to the "superiority" of double inverted play.  Whatever floats your boat.  Sigh.

*If you have 1000 Chinese male kids training with double inverted in a professional setting for twelve straight years vs. 1 combo bat kid in the same training environment who gets the least attention, which style has the highest probability to come out on top?)





1.  You did not answer any of my questions about the timing of these conversations.
2.  If your argument was easily correct, they could have overwhelmed the world with two-sided pips players as well and yet did not do so.  Or even one-sided C or J-Penners.  Or maybe they can overwhelm the world with two-sided long-pips players.  After all, equipment doesn't really matter.  All that matters is that China has the resources to do whatever it wants.
3.  I have attributed it to the superiority of double inverted play given the power that men have to project the ball over long distances.  

If you are right, someone will challenge the Chinese with a style that is not inverted.  Let's wait and see.  If there were more pips players on the CNT, I would agree with you.  In this modern age, the dominance of a style can't just be because everyone is being dumb.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:09am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:



Of course, you could say that.  The problem is that most top players don't use short pips and aren't beating double inverted players with them, making the claim empirically vacuous.  So in absolute terms given modern circumstances, inverted is the more flexible and powerful surface.


Inverted is the most practiced surface by the Chinese since late 80s because they lost to Sweden and wanted to copy their style.  They have succeeded beyond all expectations, and today they train them by the millions via a human conveyor belt system, in factory-like settings.  It's as simple as that.  The key for China is to keep doing exactly what they are successful in doing until another country starts to beat them.  Them they innovate and try to find something new again.  Short pips styles like LGL, Johnny Huang and Ding Song can definitely beat double inverted players at the very highest level.  The fact is even an Eric Boggan windshield-wiper style with anti on one side can be trained to become world champion if a country like China devote enough resources to it.  Ask LGL or KLH about it yourself.  You like to argue as if you know more than them, but I don't think so. Wink Both of them will tell you any style can be trained to become world champion regardless of the rubbers used, as long as one side has enough "killing" power.  Table tennis is all about strategy, power and positioning, and ultimately the ability to implement them.  Nothing else.  "Monster loop drives with devastating spin from both wings" does not matter if the opponent can consistently return one more shot to end the point.   As you learn more about table tennis in the next decade or two you will understand what I am talking about.  Repeatedly talking trash about other rubbers being "inferior" to inverted, and their users "don't have the ability to use inverted" make you sound extremely ignorant.  If LGL and KLH can respect all rubber surfaces and their users (most CNT coaches are big fans of Eric Boggan) you should listen too.  Wink

You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community.  If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China.  

If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already.

It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument.  If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already.  Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:21am
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

 
IMO roundrobin is right on the money, and NextLevel should give us all a rest from his tedious theories which only serve to highlight his lack of real knowledge which he tries to disguise with high school debating techniques. Its really sad that the few knowledgeable posters on the forum are continually interrupted by pathetic types, who are unable to admit that others are wiser.

Thanks.  Since my opinion is not just mine and is actually shared by players far better than myself and yourself, I think your position is in part sourced from your dislike of me and your use of pips on both sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:37am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....

Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today.

Name a left-hander in the top 10.

See the difference?  3 beats none.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote speedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:54am
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

What are the suggested tactics against a backhand short pips hitter. He appears to be able to hit topspins or backspins without much problem. Plays very close to the table.

I am thinking deep shots to his body. But typically what are the shots that work against short pips - as mentioned above - he seems to have no trouble with my spins.


Today is your lucky day.  I am a short-pips backhand player for years.  I hit through almost anything, especially backspin.  The more backspin you give me, the better I hit.

I see that you have many good suggestions.  I will sum it up and give away my secrets here:

1.  Serve long, must be low, dead (no spin) ball to the backhand
2.  Go to the elbow more

#1 and #2 will not work 100% for sure.  But here is #3 will work like a charm. Ready?

3.  Go wide to the side of that backhand with medium speed. (Too slow: he will have time and be able to hit it through, Too Fast: all he has to to is stick his paddle out there and block.  it's difficult but with good reflex he can do it).  So, why go wide?  and go more to the side?  And why medium speed (alternate to slow one of those ball)?

Medium speed:  Usually short pips or any pips players rely on the speed of the ball.  With medium speed going to him, he can hit, but he will must be really good (US rating 2200 and above) to be able to keep it consistent.  Otherwise, he will hit into the net of those ball coming at him slower/lower than the others.

Wide and Side:  As we all know, pips has less spins than inverted.  It's hard to go to the side and try to bend the ball back in.  There is no spin on that pips to carry the ball back in.  I find this one is very tricky for me to play against. 

4.  Short pips players are very comfortable staying in the middle of the table and play with you side-to-side.  However, they don't like wide angle ball, and they don't like their opponent changing pace on the ball on them.

Good luck,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community.  If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument.  If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already.  Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly...  </span>


The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style?

There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

 IMO roundrobin is right on the money, and NextLevel should give us all a rest from his tedious theories which only serve to highlight his lack of real knowledge which he tries to disguise with high school debating techniques. Its really sad that the few knowledgeable posters on the forum are continually interrupted by pathetic types, who are unable to admit that others are wiser.

Thanks.  Since my opinion is not just mine and is actually shared by players far better than myself and yourself, I think your position is in part sourced from your dislike of me and your use of pips on both sides.

I would just point out that I played double inverted in tournaments from
1968 -1988 with an 18 month intermission for black&black with LP circa 1978, and changed to play with sp from 1989 to 2013, and currently though I am a hitter, I do use a bh loop from time to time, even though I use sp! I have had many opportunies to play with and talk to, and be coached by, nationally ranked players over those years.
I recognise that there are quite a few people on this forum who have not
been as fortunate in their experience as I have, and yet because they are sensible intelligent people, with a well balanced outlook they are able to contribute in a positive interesting fashion, unlike yourself, and your boring determination to defend a position with pathetically weak arguments, made worse by your palpable lack of any experience or understanding of competitive tt at all.


Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/28/2013 at 3:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:02pm
Haha. We just had a French dude visit our Korea Foreign TTA and he defeated both our aces 3-0 and 3-1 using a control game with SP on both sides. Dude simply stayed in points and had a contract with the net. he will be a very valuable member in upcoming national tourneys. Our aces are rated 2200-2300+ but right now are playing significantly stronger, like National Div 1 and Div 2. This French dude rocked using SP on both sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....

Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today.

Name a left-hander in the top 10.

See the difference?  3 beats none.

Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ??
Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao....

Huge difference between top ten and major winner....

So no dun see a difference....


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by speedy speedy wrote:

Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

What are the suggested tactics against a backhand short pips hitter. He appears to be able to hit topspins or backspins without much problem. Plays very close to the table.

I am thinking deep shots to his body. But typically what are the shots that work against short pips - as mentioned above - he seems to have no trouble with my spins.


Today is your lucky day.  I am a short-pips backhand player for years.  I hit through almost anything, especially backspin.  The more backspin you give me, the better I hit.

I see that you have many good suggestions.  I will sum it up and give away my secrets here:

1.  Serve long, must be low, dead (no spin) ball to the backhand
2.  Go to the elbow more

#1 and #2 will not work 100% for sure.  But here is #3 will work like a charm. Ready?

3.  Go wide to the side of that backhand with medium speed. (Too slow: he will have time and be able to hit it through, Too Fast: all he has to to is stick his paddle out there and block.  it's difficult but with good reflex he can do it).  So, why go wide?  and go more to the side?  And why medium speed (alternate to slow one of those ball)?

Medium speed:  Usually short pips or any pips players rely on the speed of the ball.  With medium speed going to him, he can hit, but he will must be really good (US rating 2200 and above) to be able to keep it consistent.  Otherwise, he will hit into the net of those ball coming at him slower/lower than the others.

Wide and Side:  As we all know, pips has less spins than inverted.  It's hard to go to the side and try to bend the ball back in.  There is no spin on that pips to carry the ball back in.  I find this one is very tricky for me to play against. 

4.  Short pips players are very comfortable staying in the middle of the table and play with you side-to-side.  However, they don't like wide angle ball, and they don't like their opponent changing pace on the ball on them.

Good luck,

Thx speedy 3 was a really good point.... Never thot about it that way
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:58pm
I am still sticking with my assertion that it isn't the material that jrscatman is playing against,  it is the style or the person.  After the opponent hits the ball the ball doesn't care what kind of paddle the opponent used to hit it.  The ball is 'committed' to a trajectory and spin.   It seems that too much of this thread is about the material but what if jrscatman could learn to twiddle a little faster,  chop better away from the table, chop block better when closer to the table etc.  The new abilities would help him beat an assortment of players.   A lot of the above suggestions are good ones but jrscatman must still be able to execute them.

Keeping the ball low is good advice against all styles of players.  The same goes for hitting deep into the corners and at the elbow.

It still isn't clear to me what jrscatman does with his LP 0X.  The people I have played against with the Palio LP 0X pips use them for blocking at the table not chopping.  If so, it appears that jrscatman has a problem blocking balls deep to the corners and at the elbow and keeping the balls low at the same time.  I still think this is an execution problem.   If these basic shots can be done then the spin reversal from the LPs should slow down the SP attacker a little bit.

Quote
Good luck,
About that. Yesterday I was playing against a Chinese cpen hitter and I was playing with my LP 0X.  I place two balls very short of the opposite sides of the table.  First to his FH and then to his BH.  The cpen hitter surprised me because he I have never seen him move that fast.  With a blind stab at the ball from below the table with the LP on back side of his paddle he got it back and I muffed it.  A year ago or even 6 months ago that shot would have been impossible because he wouldn't even have tried.  He would have complimented me on my ability to place the ball so well.  The cpen hitter said it was a lucky shot.   I said may be but it took effort to move that quickly from side to side.  The point is that effort gives us more chances to be lucky.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....

Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today.

Name a left-hander in the top 10.

See the difference?  3 beats none.

Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ??
Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao....

Huge difference between top ten and major winner....

So no dun see a difference....



Timo Boll has won the World Cup twice, Xu Xin has won it once.  Gatien was a lefty as well.  You can push this lefty argument as long as you want to, but lefties are about 10% of the population so they usually exceed their general representation in most racquet sports.   Stop revealing your inability to make good points against an opinion you disagree with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 12:32am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....

Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today.

Name a left-hander in the top 10.

See the difference?  3 beats none.

Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ??
Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao....

Huge difference between top ten and major winner....

So no dun see a difference....



Timo Boll has won the World Cup twice, Xu Xin has won it once.  Gatien was a lefty as well.  You can push this lefty argument as long as you want to, but lefties are about 10% of the population so they usually exceed their general representation in most racquet sports.   Stop revealing your inability to make good points against an opinion you disagree with.

LOL! I am glad you see my point bro, no one in their right mind would argue against left-handed players. Just like no one in their right mind should argue against pip out players...

we have a difference of opinion and i am not necessarily trying to convert you... Arguing is a fun process and we can expand our knowledge in the process...  but i think bottom line for me is that discriminating against legal pip-out players is against sportsmanship and even human decency...
so i guess if i have hurt you feeling i am sorry... (some posts in these threads are getting really personal but i guess its all part of the fun on the forum)  

i think play whatever maximizes the your game, playing level or enjoyment... lefty, pip out or not its all fair under the rules...

Mizutani i think is actually right handed, switched to playing lefty because i guess it made him a better player...
In Li Xiao Dong's article on short pips he mentioned he switched 饶静文's bh to sp because it made her a better player... 
and no one can really say they made a bad move... like i said if it is legal then it is fair and shouldn't be discriminated against disregarding where the modern table tennis game is going...

i understand they are trying to make the game more entertaining for TV (lp blocking is hard to enjoy because you can't see the spin variations on TV)... all the rule changes seems to have that goal in mind... But just like you shouldn't play amateur football like the NFL unless you want dead players... Amateurs' body is not conditioned to play at such high physically demanding level... LGL once remarked that 'one superstar will destroy a generation of amateurs imitators' and i think thats exactly why... Ultimately it is a different game that the pros and the amateur plays. So no matter where the modern game is going its ridiculous to let the pros dictate how we should play 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 7:34am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I think NextLevels argument can apply to all the left handed players too instead of pip-ers..... Results speaks for themselves, no major championship has been won for a while by lefties...

I think XuXin and Timo and Mizutani 's games aren't modern enough.... They need to be playing right handed like ZJK is...

ROFL....

Name a pips on both sides player in the top 10 today.

Name a left-hander in the top 10.

See the difference?  3 beats none.

Name a lefty major winner?? ?? ?? ?? ??
Name a pip winner? LGL JJL WangTao....

Huge difference between top ten and major winner....

So no dun see a difference....



Timo Boll has won the World Cup twice, Xu Xin has won it once.  Gatien was a lefty as well.  You can push this lefty argument as long as you want to, but lefties are about 10% of the population so they usually exceed their general representation in most racquet sports.   Stop revealing your inability to make good points against an opinion you disagree with.

LOL! I am glad you see my point bro, no one in their right mind would argue against left-handed players. Just like no one in their right mind should argue against pip out players...

we have a difference of opinion and i am not necessarily trying to convert you... Arguing is a fun process and we can expand our knowledge in the process...  but i think bottom line for me is that discriminating against legal pip-out players is against sportsmanship and even human decency...
so i guess if i have hurt you feeling i am sorry... (some posts in these threads are getting really personal but i guess its all part of the fun on the forum)  

i think play whatever maximizes the your game, playing level or enjoyment... lefty, pip out or not its all fair under the rules...

Mizutani i think is actually right handed, switched to playing lefty because i guess it made him a better player...
In Li Xiao Dong's article on short pips he mentioned he switched 饶静文's bh to sp because it made her a better player... 
and no one can really say they made a bad move... like i said if it is legal then it is fair and shouldn't be discriminated against disregarding where the modern table tennis game is going...

i understand they are trying to make the game more entertaining for TV (lp blocking is hard to enjoy because you can't see the spin variations on TV)... all the rule changes seems to have that goal in mind... But just like you shouldn't play amateur football like the NFL unless you want dead players... Amateurs' body is not conditioned to play at such high physically demanding level... LGL once remarked that 'one superstar will destroy a generation of amateurs imitators' and i think thats exactly why... Ultimately it is a different game that the pros and the amateur plays. So no matter where the modern game is going its ridiculous to let the pros dictate how we should play 



+1000.  Arguing is a fun process and I do not discriminate against pips players.  I was coached by one, I sometimes practice against them with my current coach, I have pips on one of my rackets and have considered switching many times because I take the ball early, often can't and hate backing off the table and like to block the ball short.  At my club, we have many pips players.  I played one yesterday, and there is another who was very helpful in developing my backhand hit against underspin and in shortening my forehand stroke (ok, that one still needs some work).  I remember when an older man (pips player) who was once one of the top players in the US was playing an inverted player about 10 to 15 years younger.  The older man said "This inverted - you can just spin the ball - that is nothing.  This pips require timing and technique."  So the question of course was why was he using pips - apart from being used to them, they helped him play close to the table as he wasn't going to back up.  But the problem was also that when hard looks were thrown at him, he couldn't always block them.

That I don't think a Pips player can be world champion is based on the power in the men's game and the reaction times one has to have to consistently take the ball early.  I do believe that pips champions can still exist in the women's game because the ball is slower and women can take the ball early, though as more powerful loopers go into the women's game, these pips players will have a harder time as well.  I love watching Yi Shanfei play loopers all the time for that reason.

And if I am considering using pips and have been considering using pips, I think it's fair to say that I have nothing against the surface.  Those who use them put in many hours.   I just think inverted is a superior surface because of the way men use their power.

As for the personal posts, I can't take them too personally.  Both players would probably beat me with a clipboard and don't like my attitude in general.  I have learned a lot from both of them.  We don't have to get along as long as we don't get too distracted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 1:33pm
Nextlevel,  are any of the LP players you play against twiddlers?  If so what is your reaction to twiddlers? This is a topic that hasn't been stressed too much in this thread but I strongly feel that LP and anti players should learn how to twiddle.  

I think jrscatman should learn how to twiddle faster so he can twiddle in a rally.  I know this is a different issue that how to play against SP players but if jrscatman is playing with LPs then he can catch many of his opponents off guard by twiddling.  I read above that jrscatman doesn't think he can twiddle fast enough.  It simply takes practice.   I have seen people twiddle very fast and it is just a nervous habit.  I practiced twiddling watching TV or doing something else.   I wanted to be able to twiddle without even thinking about it.  It helps to have straight round handles for twiddling. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Nextlevel,  are any of the LP players you play against twiddlers?  If so what is your reaction to twiddlers? This is a topic that hasn't been stressed too much in this thread but I strongly feel that LP and anti players should learn how to twiddle.  

I think jrscatman should learn how to twiddle faster so he can twiddle in a rally.  I know this is a different issue that how to play against SP players but if jrscatman is playing with LPs then he can catch many of his opponents off guard by twiddling.  I read above that jrscatman doesn't think he can twiddle fast enough.  It simply takes practice.   I have seen people twiddle very fast and it is just a nervous habit.  I practiced twiddling watching TV or doing something else.   I wanted to be able to twiddle without even thinking about it.  It helps to have straight round handles for twiddling. 
tt4me - thanks for the suggestion. I've actually started to twiddle more matches with lower level players. Quite a few times, I've been caught in the awful middle twiddle position - but is an interesting skill. 
I guess since I have LP & Smooth at my disposal - I wanted to get a clear understanding of what causes problems for short pip players and then try to develop a strategy based on that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Nextlevel,  are any of the LP players you play against twiddlers?  If so what is your reaction to twiddlers? This is a topic that hasn't been stressed too much in this thread but I strongly feel that LP and anti players should learn how to twiddle.  

I think jrscatman should learn how to twiddle faster so he can twiddle in a rally.  I know this is a different issue that how to play against SP players but if jrscatman is playing with LPs then he can catch many of his opponents off guard by twiddling.  I read above that jrscatman doesn't think he can twiddle fast enough.  It simply takes practice.   I have seen people twiddle very fast and it is just a nervous habit.  I practiced twiddling watching TV or doing something else.   I wanted to be able to twiddle without even thinking about it.  It helps to have straight round handles for twiddling. 
tt4me - thanks for the suggestion. I've actually started to twiddle more matches with lower level players. Quite a few times, I've been caught in the awful middle twiddle position - but is an interesting skill. 
I guess since I have LP & Smooth at my disposal - I wanted to get a clear understanding of what causes problems for short pip players and then try to develop a strategy based on that. 
 
It all depends on the player - at the lower levels (1000-2000), short pips players are usually unable to hit at least one of the three main spins consistently, and it is usually underspin.  But in your case, it might be the dead ball.  I would be curious to know what happens when you serve him low long balls with your pips, both long and short.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community.  If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument.  If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already.  Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly...  </span>


The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style?

There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game.

You answered your own question.  SP was defeated by inverted looping.  So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future?

They have so many internal matches in those training sessions.  So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it.    There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China.  So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center.  There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in.

If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it.  And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc.  But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident.  It's because the style is that good.  

But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young.  Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:



The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style?

There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game.

You answered your own question.  SP was defeated by inverted looping.  So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future?

They have so many internal matches in those training sessions.  So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it.    There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China.  So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center.  There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in.

If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it.  And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc.  But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident.  It's because the style is that good.  

But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young.  Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol.  


You don't simply "discover" a new style and go on to beat tens of thousands of professional double inverted loopers in China with a few students of this new style.  It took Europe from the time of the great Hungarians to Waldner-Appelgreen-Persson trio to dominate the Chinese pips out players.  Twenty years and countless professional players later to finally achieve success!  The Chinese copied the Swedish style to see if they could do it too, and they did with great success by pouring in hundreds of millions of dollars in training and investing in infrastructure year after year.  So why should they change what's working for them?  All they wanna do is to beat foreign countries at table tennis.  As long as Chinese double-inverted loopers are beating Sweden, Germany, Korea and Japan they will keep training these kinds of players only.  Why is it so hard for you (and a couple other posters here) to understand?  Liu Guoliang has already proven that a hybrid pendhold pips-out/inverted style can be wildly successful against the trickiest hidden servers, and the most vicious two winged loopers, in the speedglue era, no less.  Juanito has already proven a classic penhold pips out style can still be extremely competitive against the very best 40mm loopers (Kreanga and Timo Boll) at his very advanced age.  The key is in China, right now there's no incentive anymore to train players using pips professionally because two-winged inverted looping is working very well, and it's easy to duplicate this success by the tens of thousands.  Those who want to try different styles are actively discouraged in China and if they do, they are simply overwhelmed by the sea of well-trained professional double-inverted loopers.  It is imperative for these non-double-inverted players to achieve, at a minimum, equal strength in numbers to be competitive, and they are nowhere near that because of Chinese government support for only what's working.

By the way, your last sentence is asinine and extremely insulting, but par for the course... Anyway, for those who keep posting rubbish online about short pips, here's a little news:  The 2012 U.S. National Champion Timothy Wang just lost to Jiaqi Zheng 4-0 at LATTA Washington Cup yesterday.  Jiaqi is a female short pips penhold player with reverse backhand loop, just like LGL.  Her game is definitely not "just for girls", even in the post speed-glue, "ultra-modern"-40mm-double-winged-loopkill-everything-era.  Talk about utter ignorance...





Edited by roundrobin - 04/29/2013 at 7:27pm
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Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

By the way, your last sentence is asinine and extremely insulting, but par for the course... Anyway, for those who keep posting rubbish online about short pips, here's a little news:  The 2012 U.S. National Champion Timothy Wang just lost to Jiaqi Zheng 4-0 at LATTA Washington Cup yesterday.  Jiaqi is a female short pips penhold player with reverse backhand loop, just like LGL.  Her game is definitely not "just for girls", even in the post speed-glue, ultra-modern-40mm-double-winged-loopkill-everything-era.  Talk about utter ignorance...

 
Thanks for the education.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

You're assuming there is no evolution of the TT game within China massive community.  If a better tactical strategy was discovered by some player or coach, you don't think they would use it to obtain the "riches and bitches" in China.  </span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">If there was an advantage for a healthy male athlete to use SP or anti or sandpaper at the pinnacle of the game on their BH, it would have been done already.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.3;">It's like that Butterfly Tenergy BH and DHS Hurricane/TG FH argument.  If they could find something better for their BH and FH they would have moved on already.  Unless they are doing it because they are sponsored by DHS and Butterfly...  </span>


The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style?

There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game.

You answered your own question.  SP was defeated by inverted looping.  So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future?
They have so many internal matches in those training sessions.  So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it.    There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China.  So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center.  There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in.
If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it.  And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc.  But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident.  It's because the style is that good.  
But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young.  Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol.  

You only have to study the history of the game:-
  • 1950's - Japan sandwich style overcomes europe

  • Japan introduced new levels of spin,power & athleticism to overcome Europes consistent allrounders Until this point every world champion chopped at least some of the time. Not any more!!
  • 1960's China Replace Japan

  • China turns the world on its head with close to the table SPEED rocking back the Topspin of Japan
  • 1970's Japan, Hungary & Yugoslavia & Sweden

  • Japan and Europeans take advantage of China's political troubles to produce a Topspin and Speed Glue revolution, we start to see shots that go round the net.

  • 1980's China Respond

  • Chinas response is to produce combi bat players and a new wave of sp hitters playing close to the table. SPEED is back
  • 1990's Sweden come to the fore

  • To me this is a wonderful period. The swedish players produce a blend of power, spin and speed and all court movement
  • 2000 + china back on top
    Finally China is on top but at this stage we can no longer say that there is a unique chinese style because the whole world is trying to play in the same way, but not as well.
    We can maybe call it all court topspin playing further back from the table than the chinese have ever done before.
    Can it be combatted?
    Well the chinese used the likes of JJL CZH, Xie Saike,Teng Yi guo ye hua to defeat Jonyer & co by forcing them off the table, so it seems likely that any player who wants to defeat the current CNT players will have to do this. When the japanese, koreans, and germans experience what limited success they have, its apparent that they do best when they are prepared to stay closer and slug it out. So maybe sp could form part of that solution. But I think the prime characteristic required is super athleticism, not a particular type of equipment. It depends on how our hoped for super athletes choose to express themselves- whether its sp, combi, or inverted, I dont care as long as its wonderful!!


Edited by pingpongpaddy - 04/29/2013 at 8:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pongz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 8:45pm
imho, sometimes people don't realise that rule and equipment changes favor one style while hinder other styles... By knowing history, we can understand better the 'why'... Hopefully, this will help us to understand future game which always evolve...

For example, my coach was in the same team with Zhuan Ze Dong (~1950-'60)... He used very old bat, never put emphasize in technology, only technique... which is fine.... He always said in chinese "the old is not necessary worse, the new is not necessary better"

imho, he is right but he is also wrong... His technique in his era emphasize hitting more than looping... In his era either the sponge was dead or not thick enough (Correct if I'm wrong).. so he always coach us to put emphasize on hitting.. whereas imho, the sponge and current technology favors topspin play... 

imho, the lesson to learn here is that table tennis is always evolving.. what may work today may not be working as effectively as before as time progresses... don't stuck in the old paradigm because we just simply following.. We need to go further by understanding the reason why people do certain things... nothing stay the same.. what is constant is change.... one day people will figure out how to beat china, beat certain style, etc... it is inevitable as LGL said... it is just a matter of time... ...cycle of life... :) 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:



The problem here is that even though someone already may have discovered a better way of playing, all the resources go to those who play the conventional style. If the top coaches spots 5 kids, with roughly the same amount of talent, and 4 of them play a conventional looping fame, while the 5th plays with LP/SP and manages to keep up with the others, the coaches will look at it and claim that his style isn't viable in the top, so they spend their resources on the conventional players. In time, they will be proven right, since "their" players will progress more, due to having better coaching. As long as China are able to dominate the world with their current style, why risk anything and spend resources on another style?

There was a time when China dominated the world with sp, but the world found an answer to that and this is what forced them to change their way. If the world once again finds an answer to their current style, I'm sure they will study this new style very hard and then come up with something to match it, and this might be going back to sp, or some other change in the game.

You answered your own question.  SP was defeated by inverted looping.  So what has happened in TT that assumes SP will defeat inverted looping in the near future?

They have so many internal matches in those training sessions.  So if a LP/SP genius came along and defeated inverted loopers the coach will acknowledge it.    There are so many coaches and so many training centers in China.  So if a developing player doesn't like a system they can move to another training center.  There is a whole local, provincial, and national system a kid could develop in.

If they are consistently winning against inverted loopers with SP/LP at competition, why wouldn't anyone acknowledge it and copy it.  And they do because the top 100 players there's are sprinkles of pip players, anti, etc.  But in the top 5 - 10 it is dominated by loopers, which isn't an accident.  It's because the style is that good.  

But the reality is that SP is relegated to older players that play with SP when they were young.  Or older inverted loopers that lost the paddle speed and moved onto SP...oh and girls...lol.  


You don't simply "discover" a new style and go on to beat tens of thousands of professional double inverted loopers in China with a few students of this new style.  It took Europe from the time of the great Hungarians to Waldner-Appelgreen-Persson trio to dominate the Chinese pips out players.  Twenty years and countless professional players later to finally achieve success!  The Chinese copied the Swedish style to see if they could do it too, and they did with great success by pouring in hundreds of millions of dollars in training and investing in infrastructure year after year.  So why should they change what's working for them?  All they wanna do is to beat foreign countries at table tennis.  As long as Chinese double-inverted loopers are beating Sweden, Germany, Korea and Japan they will keep training these kinds of players only.  Why is it so hard for you (and a couple other posters here) to understand?  Liu Guoliang has already proven that a hybrid pendhold pips-out/inverted style can be wildly successful against the trickiest hidden servers, and the most vicious two winged loopers, in the speedglue era, no less.  Juanito has already proven a classic penhold pips out style can still be extremely competitive against the very best 40mm loopers (Kreanga and Timo Boll) at his very advanced age.  The key is in China, right now there's no incentive anymore to train players using pips professionally because two-winged inverted looping is working very well, and it's easy to duplicate this success by the tens of thousands.  Those who want to try different styles are actively discouraged in China and if they do, they are simply overwhelmed by the sea of well-trained professional double-inverted loopers.  It is imperative for these non-double-inverted players to achieve, at a minimum, equal strength in numbers to be competitive, and they are nowhere near that because of Chinese government support for only what's working.

By the way, your last sentence is asinine and extremely insulting, but par for the course... Anyway, for those who keep posting rubbish online about short pips, here's a little news:  The 2012 U.S. National Champion Timothy Wang just lost to Jiaqi Zheng 4-0 at LATTA Washington Cup yesterday.  Jiaqi is a female short pips penhold player with reverse backhand loop, just like LGL.  Her game is definitely not "just for girls", even in the post speed-glue, "ultra-modern"-40mm-double-winged-loopkill-everything-era.  Talk about utter ignorance...

I really think you have to rethink what's going on in PRC when it comes to the TT scene.  You really think the millions of PRC citizens playing TT for the sole purpose of beating another country.  Maybe the CNT members think in sort of that mindset, but everyone else is trying to beat other PRC players for the most part.  So if someone develops a SP strategy to beat 2 wing looping for a spot on the CNT, I don't see why coaching on the CNT would force that player to change to 2 wing inverted looping.  The CNT coaches are old enough to remember SP game during its heyday.  Seems like the more obvious reason, besides this great conspiracy against SP, is that 2 wing looping is really effective.  PRC players with with hard tacky rubber vs their European/Japanese softy grippy rubber, which is evidence they have evolved 2 wing looping to the next level.

Jiaqi Zheng was trained in the PRC.  So I have no idea why your stuck on this PRC conspiracy against SP.  Cause she obviously didn't listen to anyone coaching her in your hypothetical PRC 2 wing looping system.  So instead of the CNT she ended up on the Beijing TT Team...ugh...loser...instead of beating other countries in TT, she has to get an MBA in the US.

Yeah any reject from the PRC TT system usually does very well overseas, because they love playing TT.  I don't see what that has to do with Timothy Wang who for the most part trained in the US.  Just look at their world ranking difference if you think a game between them would result in anything different (there is about 300 ranking difference).  Sure have Jiaqi Zheng (140) play Ma Long (1) which is only like a 139 ranking difference.  If she wins, I'm sure everyone on the CNT will copy her style.

So your argument just supports my position.  SP is for old guys and girls...lol.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 3:47am
 
the best aRgument is that no lefty has been able to play a final in a wttc or OG in  16 years, wang liquin coach gave an explanation why lefties cant win but it was very complicated, indeed in  china lefties are not succesful but women, there are a lot of stats about that
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 9:57am
I think even the two wing power looper game is evolving too... Ma long and zhang jike are very different two wing loopers and they definitely are different from wang liqin....

I think maybe in a few years time we will arguing against fh dominate power loopers like ma long or all around loopers like samsonov and boll instead of short pips??

I don't think talking about where modern tt is evolving to have any merit in our argument.... Because I think the truth is if that's the case then all European styles including the great waldner is really phrasing out too... Then we move to a Chinese supremacist type of mentality? 


Edited by JohnnyChop - 04/30/2013 at 10:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

 
the best aRgument is that no lefty has been able to play a final in a wttc or OG in  16 years, wang liquin coach gave an explanation why lefties cant win but it was very complicated, indeed in  china lefties are not succesful but women, there are a lot of stats about that
 

I have heard this argument about lefties before, but I am not sure I agree with it.  Lefty Zhou Yu won the Chinese National Championship last year, which is probably the hardest tournament in the world to win.

Hao Shuai, while seldom allowed to play outside, has been one of the top players in the Superleague for the last few years as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

 
the best aRgument is that no lefty has been able to play a final in a wttc or OG in  16 years, wang liquin coach gave an explanation why lefties cant win but it was very complicated, indeed in  china lefties are not succesful but women, there are a lot of stats about that
 

I have heard this argument about lefties before, but I am not sure I agree with it.  Lefty Zhou Yu won the Chinese National Championship last year, which is probably the hardest tournament in the world to win.

Hao Shuai, while seldom allowed to play outside, has been one of the top players in the Superleague for the last few years as well.

ILya


but how many lefty players have won the chinese nationals?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 8:37pm
There's a firm belief among the CNT coaches that playing lefty alone give you nearly a whole level of advantage, similar to a 100 USATT rating points boost.  This is by no means a putdown of lefty players.  They should maximize this advantage to their benefit.  Smile




Edited by roundrobin - 04/30/2013 at 9:48pm
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