Playing against short pips hitter

What are the suggested tactics against a backhand short pips hitter. He appears to be able to hit topspins or backspins without much problem. Plays very close to the table.

move him around so he can't use his BH. vary your ball placement/spins.

Zeio is correct about the spin needing to be heavy. If you push a ball back to their SPs it won't have much spin and they can attack it very easily. You've got to really chop the ball or loop it with some serious spin. SPs aren't really great at looping/lifting heavy underspin, so chop the ball with a lot of spin.

*




Edited by roundrobin - 10/27/2015 at 12:46pm

Speedplay wrote: jt99sf wrote: move him around so he can't use his BH. vary your ball placement/spins. This is, in general, a bad advice, since nmost players are stronger on their fh, so trying to aim for that might not be the best idea, unless you have terrible trouble to play against the SP. Also, I agree with RR and Next Level, flots are good to play against SP hitters, either that or topspin. My experience is that backspin is suicide against them, the more the merrier for them and especially if the ball is short.

I find it is the close to the table style that SP players play is more of a problem than the SPs themselves.  It is a different game when the SP player WILL NOT back up an inch no matter what so the ball comes back quickly and at angles.   Sometimes one must simply be able to play faster and beat them at their own game.   This should be possible if hitting with inverted because the inverted player can hit with more top spin to keep the ball on the table.  The problem is in the execution and being able to loop off the bounce or simply being able to drive the ball fast and low over the net more consistently than the SP player.

jrscatman wrote: I am intermediate level player. My opponent is shake hands player. Smooth on the forehand Short pips on the backhand.  I usually play modern defence style with Smooth (FH) and long pips on the (BH). So BH hits are usually coming to my BH (long pips). I am able to loop on the bh with smooth (but with this player I usually don't have time to twiddle). I can also play smooth & smooth and loop from both sides.  I am thinking since I have ability play smooth and smooth - would it better to play with smooth & smooth. Because my control and placement with pips are not very accurate.  From the responses it seems - keeping the ball low is very important. So deep no spin serves, followed by deep loops should keep him from attacking. Once he starts his attack - I am not strong enough to counter it - basically I am chasing the ball at that point.  I just want to have a basic strategy that I can try - right now I am kind clue less - everything is getting attacked.

It really depends on how the short pip guy plays. From my experiences, they usually play close to the table and block very well. So, if that's the case, I usually win with smash not spin. They can block spin, but it's difficult with smash. I usually setup my smash with *control* loop. I would open my loop either bh or fh with just enough to make him play in passive mode(blocking). This is where I learn my opponent. I usually vary my loop placement so that he is out of position and his block would not be effective. (Ex. He returns a bit high ...) Then I follow with a control loop again or finish with a smash. Again, really depends on the level of both players.

I see a lot of ideas here about how specifically to deal with SP, but it seems to me the pips are less of an issue than the fact that he's a hitter who stays close to the table.  

My thoughts:

1. No spin serves are useful against *long* pips but I've never seen a SP player have problems with them.  SP have some grip, just not as much as smooth.

I personally would serve mostly short with a mix of spins.  It is easier to flip a short serve with pips compared to smooth, but most good players can flip anyway.  The important thing about short serves (more important than the amount of spin) is to keep the low.  If the serve goes high, the SP player with quick hit or smash.  If the serve is low, the flip will be no different than a flip from smooth rubber.

I would mix in the occasional long serve, but they must be fast, low, and no spin.  If this serve goes high, the SP player will kill it.  However, if it stays low, then the SP player needs to spin that ball up.  Since it's harder to generate spin with SP, then is a challenge for them.  Of course, you want to place the ball well, such as far FH corner or the elbow.

2. I would be careful on using the wide angles until your opponent is clearly out of position.  Your SP close to the table player has no trouble blocker or guiding the ball to even wider angles, giving you a difficult return.  I would plan on using a series of controlled loops carefully places to push your opponent into one side of the table, and then go very wide the other way.  

The ultimate opponent for this kind of challenge is a Seemiller-style blocker.  You play a very wide angle on them, thinking you've got them.  However, they don't bother with strokes -- they just block and angle the ball even wider back at you. With these kinds of players, wide angles are definitely a double-edged sword.

3. I would emphasize more spin on your loops instead of speed, unless you've got the perfect put away shot.  Even with pips, spiny loops are harder to block.  Also, close-to-the-table hitters like a quick tempo and have a harder time adjusting to a slower pace. They're likely to over-hit or under-block.

4. I would keep my loops deep until you see the SP player step back.  If the loops are deep then the SP player is forced to hit them quick off the bounce.  In that case, they are more likely to block than to hit, giving you more time to react.  If the SP player drops back from the table, then you can mix in some shorter loops as well as smashes.

Overall, I would recommend that you don't want to let the SP player control the wide angles, or to get their desired rhythm (usually fast pace). You need to be patient to look for your winning shot.

NextLevel wrote: zeio wrote: A few key areas spring to mind given my fair share of short pips nightmare.  The first priority is to avoid use of float/no spin at all cost.  Light top-/backspin won't cut it.  Always send every shot back with fairly heavy spin at a minimum to keep them at bay.  Doing so will also get yourself some leeway in case some shots are not as tight and/or deep as desirable.  Place most serves away from the short pips and mix in a few kick serves to the crossover to keep them honest.  In my case, I find the reverse pendulum and hook serves give them a harder time than the vanilla pendulum serve.   I disagree with this.   First and foremost, serve no-spin/float long to the forehand or the backhand (whichever is weaker) with strategic placement.  This is the hardest ball for the pips hitter to attack.  Strategic placement means that the hitter must need to get into position to hit the ball.  If the hitter doesn't have to move or reach to hit the ball, the placement is not strategic.  The elbow area is fine.   Take the ball relatively late and with either heavy spin/power. Sidespin is pretty helpful.  But always keep the balls deep and if possible low. Anything too short and high will give them too many angles.   IF he can hit underspin, find out whether you can serve underspin that is too heavy for him to hit.  If it is, then he has to push it or roll it back.  But that is when if you serve it deep and he has to roll it back, you can crush the return.

No problem.  Just note that this is coming from a guy who plays against short pips on a weekly basis.  I've come a long way dealing with them and learned it the hard way doing exactly what you suggested above.  Long no-spin do not work well against pips even at the intermediate level.  Decent players will flick through them preying for weak returns and good players will just step around and loopkill them.  You then catch yourself spending more time picking up balls than at the table before you know it.

The folks at pingskills are telling the same thing - 1, 2, 3.  You bet they know what they're talking about.

I play with LP OX on the backhand but as I mentioned I am also able to play smooth-smooth as I can loop from both sides. I am also able to twiddle - but with this particular case - he plays very close to the table - I find I don't have enough time to twiddle.

Not every SP player is the same.

I know a shakehand player with SP on backhand.  He can hit through topspin and mediocre underspin with ease.  For heavy underspin, he uses SP to topspin and there is enough topspin coming back.  The general consensus among my friends is to avoid his backhand.  When we serve, we serve long to his body or short.

I know a penhold SP that likes hitting through no spin or underspin, backhand or forehand.  When I do push, it has very heavy underspin.  Topspin is a better strategy.  When he is able to block the topspin, one has to be careful in looping the ball back.  There is the danger of looping the ball to the net.

Against SP blockers, it is a timing issue to loop the ball back.

I have beaten SP players and I have lost to SP players.  The ones who beat me are just better players.

the other thing is to come in a bit when they attack (as opposed to going to far back to return their shot) as it won't carry as much (more dip and fall)

well...if he able to hit every thing from you, it real means you are in different level. I only play with one player like that who has BH SP and smoth on FH, his rating about 1800-1900.
Is not too difficult play with him.

serve long no spin, counter back.
serve short on his FH, bush back long BH.
when loop, loop in to his body, or slow but very spin.

SP can loop and hit, I think you just need to play with him more, get used to the spin and timing.


Edited by bayttplayer - 04/25/2013 at 5:21pm

koshkin wrote: My practice partner for years was a close to the table pips hitter (medium pips mostly), so I am probably at my best against this style. He is an overall better player than I am, so unless I found his exact weakness, I was toast.  The only thing that really worked was playing deep into his pips and his elbow with spin variation. He could get used to just about anything if I did it to much, so variation was key.   Playing short against him did not work well either, since being very close to the table allowed him to play angles very uncomfortable for me. I mostly used to take half a step away from the table and spin the ball deep with variation until I got something I could put away. ILya