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In defence of PIP players

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:06am
I think the real issue is between long pips and inverted - for the most part people don't have a problem with short pips players.  

In my opinion, the skill curve looks like this:



That's why there's a tendency for people to look at this from two different perspectives:
 
1.  "Long pips are perfectly fine and there's no reason you should complain about them because at the high level they're a huge disadvantage."

2.  "95% of us will never be advanced or world class level, so why should people be allowed to use a rubber that lets them get away with confusing their opponents by using less physicality and a rubber that's easier to learn at the low level?"

The problem is that both arguments are true and valid.  

I guess my closing point would be that if you think a rubber is cheap despite being legal and you're not high enough level to beat it, then don't play tournaments.


Edited by roar - 04/28/2013 at 1:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:23am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

I think the real issue is between long pips and inverted - for the most part people don't have a problem with short pips players.  

In my opinion, the skill curve looks like this:



That's why there's a tendency for people to look at this from two different perspectives:
 
1.  "Long pips are perfectly fine and there's no reason you should complain about them because at the high level they're a huge disadvantage."

2.  "95% of us will never be advanced or world class level, so why should people be allowed to use a rubber that lets them get away with confusing their opponents by using less physicality and a rubber that's easier to learn at the low level?"

The problem is that both arguments are true and valid.  

I guess my closing point would be that if you think a rubber is cheap despite being legal and you're not high enough level to beat it, then don't play tournaments.


Roar,

I have nothing against long pips and If I thought they suited my game (they do not right now), I would use them.  I have no problem with people using them and I truly believe that when someone complains about playing against long pips or any surface in general, his strokes still need to be developed because there is nothing to complain about if you are putting enough spin on the ball - a good, advanced looping stroke will handle just about any ball.

People seem to be disputing the claim that inverted (in the modern game, especially the men's) has inherent advantages over any other surface.  This is all I am claiming (and I believe this is power7's position as well).  It has nothing to do with whether pips should be legal or not - I think we agree that they definitely should be.  Whatever reasons you have to switching to any other surface point to a reason why inverted doesn't suit your game.  Given the overwhelming advantages of inverted, I think that any such reasons should ultimately be considered a deficit to your game unless something changes with equipment in the future.

I am not sure I agree with your skill curve.  Mastering any surface requires time and dedication.  However, because with inverted, you can impart spin on the ball,  you can take the initiative way more than pips players do.  Giving up the ability to strike from further distances given the power and athleticism in the modern men's game is suicidal at the top levels.  In fact, this old thread makes that point:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37239&PID=567100


Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2013 at 1:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:33am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

I think the real issue is between long pips and inverted - for the most part people don't have a problem with short pips players.  

In my opinion, the skill curve looks like this:



That's why there's a tendency for people to look at this from two different perspectives:
 
1.  "Long pips are perfectly fine and there's no reason you should complain about them because at the high level they're a huge disadvantage."

2.  "95% of us will never be advanced or world class level, so why should people be allowed to use a rubber that lets them get away with confusing their opponents by using less physicality and a rubber that's easier to learn at the low level?"

The problem is that both arguments are true and valid.  

I guess my closing point would be that if you think a rubber is cheap despite being legal and you're not high enough level to beat it, then don't play tournaments.


Roar,

I have nothing against long pips and If I thought they suited my game (they do not right now), I would use them.  I have no problem with people using them and I truly believe that when someone complains about playing against long pips or any surface in general, his strokes still need to be developed because there is nothing to complain about if you are putting enough spin on the ball - a good, advanced looping stroke will handle just about any ball.

People seem to be disputing the claim that inverted (in the modern game, especially the men's) has inherent advantages over any other surface.  This is all I am claiming (and I believe this is power7's position as well).  It has nothing to do with whether pips should be legal or not - I think we agree that they definitely should be.  Whatever reasons you have to switching to any other surface point to a reason why inverted doesn't suit your game.  Given the overwhelming advantages of inverted, I think that any such reasons should ultimately be considered a deficit to your game unless something changes with equipment in the future.

I am not sure I agree with your skill curve.  Mastering any surface requires time and dedication.  However, because with inverted, you can impart spin on the ball,  you can take the initiative way more than pips players do.  Giving up the ability to strike from further distances given the power and athleticism in the modern men's game is suicidal at the top levels.  In fact, this old thread makes that point:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37239&PID=567100

I just don't think it's a coincidence that players who have poor footwork, are old and slower, and could not handle the stress of a 2 wing looping game are able to compete at a moderately high level with long pips.  

Do you see anyone like Richard McAfee (a very old 2200 player with severe movement problems) with tenergy on both sides?  It seems everyone that fits his age-rating-physical problems model is using long pips.  Once again, it doesn't seem like a coincidence. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 2:00am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


People shouldn't confuse table tennis of an earlier era with the modern game.


I think a bigger problem is that people confuse their own game with that of world class players. If a world class player uses pips to cover up a weakness, then, why don't everyone below that level use pips?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 2:03am
Originally posted by roar roar wrote:

I just don't think it's a coincidence that players who have poor footwork, are old and slower, and could not handle the stress of a 2 wing looping game are able to compete at a moderately high level with long pips.  

Do you see anyone like Richard McAfee (a very old 2200 player with severe movement problems) with tenergy on both sides?  It seems everyone that fits his age-rating-physical problems model is using long pips.  Once again, it doesn't seem like a coincidence. 


+1

It clearly isn't - there are quite a few players with that style.  Not going to get you to the top of table tennis, but can get you to 2300.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 2:07am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


People shouldn't confuse table tennis of an earlier era with the modern game.


I think a bigger problem is that people confuse their own game with that of world class players. If a world class player uses pips to cover up a weakness, then, why don't everyone below that level use pips?


1) Because what is a weakness is relative to the level you are playing on.  A good block at 1600 rating is not a good block at 2000 rating.
2) Sometimes you play your game based on where you want it to go, not what is good about it right now.  If you are blocking well right now but want to be a looper, you can decide that you will stick with inverted even though pips might make your block better because you want to one day loop and will work at it.

Simple answers that I think you could come up with yourself, but it seems that you are in love with just arguing for the fun of it today.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 5:27am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


People shouldn't confuse table tennis of an earlier era with the modern game.


I think a bigger problem is that people confuse their own game with that of world class players. If a world class player uses pips to cover up a weakness, then, why don't everyone below that level use pips?
1) Because what is a weakness is relative to the level you are playing on.  A good block at 1600 rating is not a good block at 2000 rating.2) Sometimes you play your game based on where you want it to go, not what is good about it right now.  If you are blocking well right now but want to be a looper, you can decide that you will stick with inverted even though pips might make your block better because you want to one day loop and will work at it.Simple answers that I think you could come up with yourself, but it seems that you are in love with just arguing for the fun of it today.


Not at all, but realisticly, very few people will reach the top level, and if pips actually is a way to cover up a weakness, then everyone below the world class level should use them.

Pips and anti is simply a different approach to the game. You need to work just as hard with them as you do with inverted to become good with them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:21am
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

 

Are you kidding me?  It's nearly impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you regarding anything in table tennis.  It's pretty much a waste of time to share any insight with you.  China could have still dominated men's table tennis today with a thousand Ding Songs and Liu Guoliangs instead of Ma Longs and Xu Xins if they wanted to.  In women's, just Wu Wang and Fang Yin alone would have been world champions if the Chinese wanted them to be.  The only reason they don't is simply because they don't want them to.  Do not confuse don't with can't.  Ma Long, ZJK and XX etc. get all the CNT top resources right now because it's working wonderfully for them.  If they decide to train only players with combo setups with short pips on one side, they will still dominate men's table tennis.  Ask any CNT level coach (I know many personally) and they will tell you double-inverted looping style is the easiest and fastest way to the top, but not the only way.  You are too hung up on what is the real "modern game". 

So, please NextLevel, let me repeat it one more time and hopefully you get it:  Double inverted looping is the easiest and fastest way to reach the top, as told by LGL (CNT mens head coach) and KLH (CNT womens head coach) personally to me.  That's why the CNT encourage most kids to follow this path because they are playing a sheer numbers game:  They have the most kids following the easiest and fastest way to the top in table tennis, so statistically they will also have the most numbers of high-level double inverted players than any other country.  It is not the only way but the most economical and fastest way for China to beat the rest of the world.  Other countries with less resources are just too dumb to be blindly following the Chinese path to play the same game, when they should be studying the most effective way to counter the Chinese double-inverted looping style.  They will never beat the Chinese at their own game.




Okay, thanks roundrobin, you made some excellent points, but also some that I am still thinking about. To avoid getting too deeply involved in this argument, let me tell you guys about some of my musings.
As I wrote about it on a few occasions, in the past for over a year I tried to do what Johnny Huang did, pips both sides on shakehand. I had read some really great postings from a few years back by Kees and Agooding2 about the potential of short pips play and it was very appealing to me... well, I had some nice moments that way, currently I am back to inverted both sides because I was not able to learn to use my pips as the precise rapier against the loopers sword-too old, too slow on my feet... Turned out too difficult for me. However, perhaps THIS CAN BE DONE by some well coached talented kid, just maybe? Zhan Jian does not seem to be the most supported Chinese player, but I have seen him (and others one side pips, like Li JiaWei) win brilliantly over excellent loopers. So, may be the top level short pips hitting legacy can still live, the rapier outplaying the sword? May be we can have a short-pips-using world champion one day?
...one more thing: I hope I do not sound here like someone pretending to be an expert... I am a mid level guy who hopes that we will get some more style diversity at the top, and that the direct nature of short pips play can triumph one day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:23am
I think a lot of posts here are missing a key element.
Most people realize that they will never be world champion or even a top player in their state.  While there are some people that choose to use a certain blade/rubber to cover a perceived weakness, some people choose their equipment based on HOW they want to play.  Not everyone wants to be a 2 winged looper.  Some people want to play defense, some people want an all round game, some people want to smash, some people want to screw with their opponent's head, and some people want to use their opponents attacks against them.  It's not all about winning all the time.  If you think it's more fun to play modern defense than being a 2 winged looper, then you should try it - just realize that if you have aspirations to be a top player it will be a harder climb to the top.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 9:59am
Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?

Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


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Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?
Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


The Real TT community of experienced tournament and league players is completely different from that imagined by such posters as Nextlevel.
In the real world of competition the skill of the players is paramount not their equipment.
The Chinese will probably continue with their double inverted style as long as they can dominate, because its folly to change a winning strategy.
But when they are caught up, Then it would not surprise me to see them produce a new generation of close to the table players, possibly with sp, or maybe some super defenders. I can't wait to see what happens!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:19am
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

I think a lot of posts here are missing a key element.
Most people realize that they will never be world champion or even a top player in their state.  While there are some people that choose to use a certain blade/rubber to cover a perceived weakness, some people choose their equipment based on HOW they want to play.  Not everyone wants to be a 2 winged looper.  Some people want to play defense, some people want an all round game, some people want to smash, some people want to screw with their opponent's head, and some people want to use their opponents attacks against them.  It's not all about winning all the time.  If you think it's more fun to play modern defense than being a 2 winged looper, then you should try it - just realize that if you have aspirations to be a top player it will be a harder climb to the top.   

There are two threads on this same topic running in parallel.  And you are absolutely right. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CoachMcAfee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 12:30pm
Hello All,
 
In the world of senior (over 50+) table tennis, the use of long pips is indeed very common.  Most older players have some moment and balance problems and simply need to slow the game down.  Often the senior players have excellent hand skills and if they can slow the game down they can take advantage of these skills.
 
For me personally, I am actually not "very old", just 63 this year but I do have severe damage in both of my knees that makes playing a looping still not only difficult but painful.  I have been a full-time professional coach (30+ countries) more than 30 years and actually stoped playing seriously in 1978.  At that time I was playing in the first division of the National League in France and definately was an inverted looper with a very strong backhand.  Even today, I teach every day with inverted rubbers.  I just can not compete with inverted any more as I do not have enough use of my legs. 
 
Players as they get older have to set different goals for themselves as players.  I don't concern myself with trying to beat the young kids anymore (I would rather be coaching them).  My competition is other players in my own age group.  I want to judge myself against the best of my age and a rating of 2200-2300 is among the best.  I was able to win the US Open Over 60's Singles two years ago.
 
However, as an ITTF Course Conductor, training a large number of coaches each year, I am always focused on teaching the most modern techniques that are available for all styles of play.
 
Best regards,
 
Coach McAfee
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:03pm
 HI coach ,what can you tell about people who play with short and long pips and his POV of pro players using pips?  
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Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?
Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. Or sometimes people say things like 'sp are hard to play with' after loosing like I won because of the equipment I use not because I'm the better player... Or my most hated comment 'you are using sp to cover up ur inability to read spin'

The truth is I am probably a good 200 points better as a two wing sh looper then I am a sp pen hold hitter... But I find I can be much more creative with sp thus the style brings me more enjoyment.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?
Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


The Real TT community of experienced tournament and league players is completely different from that imagined by such posters as Nextlevel.
In the real world of competition the skill of the players is paramount not their equipment.
The Chinese will probably continue with their double inverted style as long as they can dominate, because its folly to change a winning strategy.
But when they are caught up, Then it would not surprise me to see them produce a new generation of close to the table players, possibly with sp, or maybe some super defenders. I can't wait to see what happens!
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In psychology, this is called "denial." Losing and being defeated, does not feel good. Using defense mechanisms such as denial to cope with the pain is common and in our DNA.

"I didn't lose because he's better than me, it's because....he has pips, his shirt was bothering me, colour of his shoes, he plays more than me, he practices more than me, he has a robot, I don't have one, he started playing as a child, he's taller, longer reach, he's shorter, faster, he has a coach, he has a better coach than mine, he was trying harder, I wasn't trying..etc.."

These defense mechanisms are necessary for our survival and allow us to power through hardship. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by popperlocker popperlocker wrote:

In psychology, this is called "denial." Losing and being defeated, does not feel good. Using defense mechanisms such as denial to cope with the pain is common and in our DNA.

"I didn't lose because he's better than me, it's because....he has pips, his shirt was bothering me, colour of his shoes, he plays more than me, he practices more than me, he has a robot, I don't have one, he started playing as a child, he's taller, longer reach, he's shorter, faster, he has a coach, he has a better coach than mine, he was trying harder, I wasn't trying..etc.."

These defense mechanisms are necessary for our survival and allow us to power through hardship. 
This is a very good post... or even a bad one, because I do not have a clue from it what is the good cause/outcome/situation and what is the bad one... which way it goes, in other words...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied.



that is interesting.... would blocks be the same??
because it definitely looks different to me... my old practice partner played spectol backhand... and his fh and bh passive block is different....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 12:34am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied if you hit the ball right.

that is interesting.... would blocks be the same??
If you mean blocks with SP vs inverted, the blocks will be close to the same if the incoming spin isn't too great.  Obviously, inverted will reverse the spin on the ball more than SP but the ball can be returned with the same speed and spin so the ball will have the same trajectory as a ball hit by SP.

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because it definitely looks different to me... my old practice partner played spectol backhand... and his fh and bh passive block is different....
It doesn't surprise me.  The FH and BH have different strokes.  Twiddle and hit through the ball with the inverted on you BH.  You will find you can duplicate the sinking effect with little effort.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 12:43am
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied if you hit the ball right.

that is interesting.... would blocks be the same??
If you mean blocks with SP vs inverted, the blocks will be close to the same if the incoming spin isn't too great.  Obviously, inverted will reverse the spin on the ball more than SP but the ball can be returned with the same speed and spin so the ball will have the same trajectory as a ball hit by SP.

Quote
because it definitely looks different to me... my old practice partner played spectol backhand... and his fh and bh passive block is different....
It doesn't surprise me.  The FH and BH have different strokes.  Twiddle and hit through the ball with the inverted on you BH.  You will find you can duplicate the sinking effect with little effort.




there is no stroke in passive blocks... but i see your point, there is always gonna be sinking effect just degrees of it.... cause i see the difference between blocking or hitting with lets say spinpips and baxter...  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 7:48am
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied if you hit the ball right.

that is interesting.... would blocks be the same??
If you mean blocks with SP vs inverted, the blocks will be close to the same if the incoming spin isn't too great.  Obviously, inverted will reverse the spin on the ball more than SP but the ball can be returned with the same speed and spin so the ball will have the same trajectory as a ball hit by SP.

Quote
because it definitely looks different to me... my old practice partner played spectol backhand... and his fh and bh passive block is different....
It doesn't surprise me.  The FH and BH have different strokes.  Twiddle and hit through the ball with the inverted on you BH.  You will find you can duplicate the sinking effect with little effort.





The degrees are different.  The ball is less spinny and sinks much faster with short pips.  Also, the inverted is more susceptible to spin as you pointed out.


Edited by NextLevel - 04/29/2013 at 8:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/29/2013 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. brings me more enjoyment.....
If you make the same kind of hit through the ball stroke with inverted you will find that inverted also has a sinking effect like SP.  There is nothing special about SP in that regard.  There is no difference in the force that can be applied if you hit the ball right.

that is interesting.... would blocks be the same??
If you mean blocks with SP vs inverted, the blocks will be close to the same if the incoming spin isn't too great.  Obviously, inverted will reverse the spin on the ball more than SP but the ball can be returned with the same speed and spin so the ball will have the same trajectory as a ball hit by SP.

Quote
because it definitely looks different to me... my old practice partner played spectol backhand... and his fh and bh passive block is different....
It doesn't surprise me.  The FH and BH have different strokes.  Twiddle and hit through the ball with the inverted on you BH.  You will find you can duplicate the sinking effect with little effort.





The degrees are different.  The ball is less spinny and sinks much faster with short pips.  Also, the inverted is more susceptible to spin as you pointed out.
How about the Spectol generating some wobble?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 1:05am
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

How about the Spectol generating some wobble?
No spin balls look like they wobble in the air around them.  What does it take to hit a no spin ball?  No spin balls are not unique to Spectol. LPs and MPs like my GD Turbo 612 can do this too.  I am sure one can do this with inverted rubbers too because I have seen balls where the ball label isn't spinning.

I would like to make a correction, actually an addition.  The only thing a paddle does is exert a force on the ball.  This results in a spin, speed and direction.  That is it.  The spin, speed and direction can probably be generated in an infinite number of ways using available inverted and pip type rubbers.  It is just that some rubbers make it easier to generate a certain kind or range of spin, speed and direction.

The sinking effect or wobble really isn't generated by the paddles directly.  If an astronaut could hit these balls in deep space they wouldn't wobble or sink because there is no gravity and air resistance.   On earth what you are really seeing is the effect of the ball with its spin, speed and direction passing through the air and earth gravitational field after it has left the paddle.  That is it.  After the ball leaves the paddle the paddle has no more affect on the ball.

Sorry about the geeky answer. I an writing this because I don't want another person to say what about ......?   The next person will get an answer like 'well because'.  
    


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 1:16am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?
Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. Or sometimes people say things like 'sp are hard to play with' after loosing like I won because of the equipment I use not because I'm the better player... Or my most hated comment 'you are using sp to cover up ur inability to read spin'

The truth is I am probably a good 200 points better as a two wing sh looper then I am a sp pen hold hitter... But I find I can be much more creative with sp thus the style brings me more enjoyment.....
But that true for anybody that loses.  They blame everything from glue to shoes.  Imaginary cracked balls and mysterious table touch.  

Good player go back and work on skill sets to overcome their loss.  Whiners will go find cheese to go with their rants. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 10:39am
Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Reading this thread.  
Do SP players really feel they are being discriminated against?  
Or that double inverted players sit around snickering at them during breaks?
Just seems odd, it's not like the TT community treat SP like hardbat players...


Of course we do... Maybe not like the long pip-ers do... But sp have all have a certain sinking effect to a degree... some people don't like it so sometimes people won't play us. Or sometimes people say things like 'sp are hard to play with' after loosing like I won because of the equipment I use not because I'm the better player... Or my most hated comment 'you are using sp to cover up ur inability to read spin'

The truth is I am probably a good 200 points better as a two wing sh looper then I am a sp pen hold hitter... But I find I can be much more creative with sp thus the style brings me more enjoyment.....
But that true for anybody that loses.  They blame everything from glue to shoes.  Imaginary cracked balls and mysterious table touch.  

Good player go back and work on skill sets to overcome their loss.  Whiners will go find cheese to go with their rants. 


Of course... But the pips makes us an easier target!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/30/2013 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

How about the Spectol generating some wobble?
No spin balls look like they wobble in the air around them.  What does it take to hit a no spin ball?  No spin balls are not unique to Spectol. LPs and MPs like my GD Turbo 612 can do this too.  I am sure one can do this with inverted rubbers too because I have seen balls where the ball label isn't spinning.

I would like to make a correction, actually an addition.  The only thing a paddle does is exert a force on the ball.  This results in a spin, speed and direction.  That is it.  The spin, speed and direction can probably be generated in an infinite number of ways using available inverted and pip type rubbers.  It is just that some rubbers make it easier to generate a certain kind or range of spin, speed and direction.

The sinking effect or wobble really isn't generated by the paddles directly.  If an astronaut could hit these balls in deep space they wouldn't wobble or sink because there is no gravity and air resistance.   On earth what you are really seeing is the effect of the ball with its spin, speed and direction passing through the air and earth gravitational field after it has left the paddle.  That is it.  After the ball leaves the paddle the paddle has no more affect on the ball.

Sorry about the geeky answer. I an writing this because I don't want another person to say what about ......?   The next person will get an answer like 'well because'.  
    


Well, you are not the only geeky person here... What you wrote about the wobble is about correct. We certainly agree that various rubbers can generate wobbly balls. However, you must have heard of the 'deception factor', and that is listed for pips in some databases as one of their important (at least for some people) characteristics. Sooo ... this is why I asked "how about the wobble of Spectol" in the context of your previous post. And why not to say "what about" in this forum? Give me a break.


Edited by JacekGM - 04/30/2013 at 7:03pm
(1) Gambler Mega Weave 82g, with Hurricane 3 Neo (2.1) red FH, Skyline TG 3 Neo BH black (2.1); (2) Juic SB Alpha 85g, Fl, with T 80FX 1.9 mm red and Hammond Pro B 1.9 mm black.
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