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In defence of PIP players

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JohnnyChop View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/26/2013 at 8:50pm

In defence of PIP players

I feel like there is a lot of bad blood towards the pip-ers and some are down right discriminations! So here is my defence of pip players!                                                                       

I definitely agree that pips shouldn't be used to cover up any weakness but I think it is true for all equipment. And that will include all blades and inverted rubbers. I can imagine that a person with slow foot work using a spinny rubber so he can spin the ball back onto the table instead of working on their footwork or like the super sponges that gives you 120% power when you hit at 90%....

 What a lot of players failed to realize is that while yes the pips can cover up weakness, they also create a lot weaknesses in return. Like with my pips I am stuck close to the table because I am simply ineffective at midrange and beyond. The truth is that  ‘cheap’ pip points are really only a thing at lower and mid levels, if you only rely on your equipment, a decent opponent will simply exploit your weakness until you drop. I hate loosing to a long pip-er as much as the next guy but If i loose it is because he is a better player not because he has cheap equipment.

As a pip player I may have some advantages but it comes at a price a major flaw; I CANNOT GENERATE MUCH SPIN and I have no power!!!! I can’t count the number of times my opponent power looped a ball pass me because of a weak push or a weak topspin… With my pips I feel like I have to play a much smarter and creative game of control and placement until an opportunity arises to hit. I can’t be late to the ball anymore because if I am, then I am only able to execute a weak return for my opponent to kill. All of the mid to high level pip-ers have put in extra work to over come this weakness

 I think if anything... pip players especially sp players needs to understand and read spin more then the inverted players because a big part of our games is manipulating spin. Yes the pips are less sensitive to spin but that doesn't make it any easier to execute any shot at all compared to inverted.  Sometimes I feel like it is easier to make shots with my inverted rubber because I have the extra protection(pushes) and the extra control that comes with spin(loops)…  

I would challenge anybody who thinks that you can just pick up a short pip and smash through everything or pick up a sheet of long pip and block everything to try just that and you will realize it is just not that simple... if you meet a player who can do that is because he has put in the hours and hours of practice necessary 

 A lot of the rule changes in the last 15 years have been made to target pip-ers, the most famous being the 2 rule changes that lead LGL to retire. And the truth is that in-terms of R and D the pips simply have not progressed as much as the inverted has. I think LGL once said it takes 1-2 more years to train a pip player then inverted because it is harder to master. Pips is a precision game, a easier start but a much harder game to master… So please before you say anything bad about a fellow pip-er understand that we have chosen a hard path, it most likely have taken us twice as many hours or sweat and hard work to get to the levels you are at. 

Well thats my rant, thanks for reading ...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/26/2013 at 9:30pm
Well, it is good to have some alternatives for people to choose. 
For one thing, I disagree that as a SHORT pip player you have no power. Also, the long pip will return tons of underspin after I play strong topspin, so yes, properly used your equipment can help you do that... I think the slight controversy arises at lower to medium levels, like when a guy that I used to beat shows up one night with a long pip and now he owns me ever since...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/26/2013 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Well, it is good to have some alternatives for people to choose. 
For one thing, I disagree that as a SHORT pip player you have no power. Also, the long pip will return tons of underspin after I play strong topspin, so yes, properly used your equipment can help you do that... I think the slight controversy arises at lower to medium levels, like when a guy that I used to beat shows up one night with a long pip and now he owns me ever since...

IF you have met anyone who has played gao jun,short pips cpen, will tell you that she can play spinnier shots than any 2500 players
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/26/2013 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Well, it is good to have some alternatives for people to choose. 
For one thing, I disagree that as a SHORT pip player you have no power. Also, the long pip will return tons of underspin after I play strong topspin, so yes, properly used your equipment can help you do that... I think the slight controversy arises at lower to medium levels, like when a guy that I used to beat shows up one night with a long pip and now he owns me ever since...

IF you have met anyone who has played gao jun,short pips cpen, will tell you that she can play spinnier shots than any 2500 players
We are in agreement here. Plus one such person is my coach (ca 2300 and a nice man) and he indeed told me about him playing Jun. That was that she had smashed everything he was sending her. He is a powerlooper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/26/2013 at 10:23pm
i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crackfst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 1:08am
please don't write "loose" instead of "lose", its painful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 3:12am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 

and   LGL serves were spinnier than any chinese player in mid 90's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 3:15am
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 


Gao Jun was our club head club for over a year.  She routinely beat up 2600+ male players, including many top Chinese visitors.  Her shots are incredibly spinny even though she uses short pips (Challenger Attack 1.9mm in black).  The secret is she uses her entire body very well to spin the ball.  Her pushes off the serves are as heavy as any inverted player's.  However, she does not use "loop drive" like regular inverted loopers do to score points.  She uses many different spin on her shotmaking to force a weak ball to put away with a smash.  It's a very different game than inverted loopers who try to overwhelm their opponents with consistent and powerful loop drives.  I am speechless at those posters who think sp users like Gao Jun, LGL, Wang Tao, Teng Yi, Li Jiawei, Shen Yangfei and Johnny Huang use short pips to "cover up a weakness" or because "they couldn't master looping" to begin with.  These posters know next to nothing about table tennis.





Edited by roundrobin - 04/27/2013 at 4:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snerdly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 4:06am
Is the recreational player who has no real time for practice covering a weakness or eliminating a problem when he chooses pips to improve his play?

How did Jiang Jialiang manage to win 2 WC with 1.3mm - 1.5mm sponge short pips and no speed glue?  Was he covering up a weakness of his own or exposing weaknesses of his opponents?

At what level has a player mastered looping?  A 2400 player might be very good at looping against a 2200 player, but against a 2600 player, maybe not so much.  

Pips is good, inverted is good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 4:17am
Originally posted by snerdly snerdly wrote:

.................
How did Jiang Jialiang manage to win 2 WC with 1.3mm - 1.5mm sponge short pips and no speed glue?  .................
I heard it was more like 1.0mm, very close to being HB.
Anyone know for certain?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Tinykin Tinykin wrote:

Originally posted by snerdly snerdly wrote:

.................
How did Jiang Jialiang manage to win 2 WC with 1.3mm - 1.5mm sponge short pips and no speed glue?  .................
I heard it was more like 1.0mm, very close to being HB.
Anyone know for certain?



not true, he played with 2mm or a tad more  i ve seen pics of his raquet
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:07am
Usinf pips or anti to cover a weakness is only true if your view of the game is that it should be played with double inverted. TT is a very versatile game and can be played in many different ways. Some ways works a lot better with pips/anti then inverted. It is often true that players who choose to play with pips/anti are weaker with inverted, but does this mean they are covering up a weakness, or are they simply using material suitable to their style?

If we tried a different approach to the game, where we expected players to be able to chop consistently, then we would probably accuse those with double inverted to cover up a weakness by using double inverted.

Pips and anti have their pros and cons compared to inverted, but they are certainly not easier to play with then inverted.

I remember when we had a former high level player visitig our club. I played a couple of sets with him and couldn't help noticing that he was very good against pips and knew exactly what they did to the ball. So, I asked him if he had played much against pips in the past. His reply somewhat surprised me, as he said that he used to play with LP himself, but nowdays, he didn't have time to practice as much, so he took the easier route and used double inverted instead. Something to think about when you make claims that pips/anti are there to cover up a weakness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Usinf pips or anti to cover a weakness is only true if your view of the game is that it should be played with double inverted. TT is a very versatile game and can be played in many different ways. Some ways works a lot better with pips/anti then inverted. It is often true that players who choose to play with pips/anti are weaker with inverted, but does this mean they are covering up a weakness, or are they simply using material suitable to their style?

If we tried a different approach to the game, where we expected players to be able to chop consistently, then we would probably accuse those with double inverted to cover up a weakness by using double inverted.

Pips and anti have their pros and cons compared to inverted, but they are certainly not easier to play with then inverted.

I remember when we had a former high level player visitig our club. I played a couple of sets with him and couldn't help noticing that he was very good against pips and knew exactly what they did to the ball. So, I asked him if he had played much against pips in the past. His reply somewhat surprised me, as he said that he used to play with LP himself, but nowdays, he didn't have time to practice as much, so he took the easier route and used double inverted instead. Something to think about when you make claims that pips/anti are there to cover up a weakness.


Exactly!!! Generally most Chinese high level coaches will agree that pips/anti is the harder path to take...

And can we all remember that TT STARTED with all pips out play!!!! So talk about covering up weakness... The inverted players started it... Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 12:52pm
Exactly!!! Generally most Chinese high level coaches will agree that pips/anti is the harder path to take...

And can we all remember that TT STARTED with all pips out play!!!! So talk about covering up weakness... The inverted players started it... Lol
======================================
 
+1
Excellent point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speedplay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 1:59pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:



And can we all remember that TT STARTED with all pips out play!!!! So talk about covering up weakness... The inverted players started it... Lol


Good point!

Someone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but perhaps inverted and sponge was intorduced by players who couldn't win with pips out? So, instead o adjusting their game, and work on their weaknessess, they used a different material to be able to cope with the more skilled players? Not to mention the introduction of speed glue...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tommy16 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 2:17pm
I have never understood people who is saying that they didn´t lose to a player, they lost to the racket. If someone can play really well with lp it´s his/her talent. If you really think that it´s easy to win with lp, why you don´t use it by yourself? The beaty of our beloved sport is that you can have your unique style and be succesfull. Or should we ban reverse bendelum becouse it´s too hard to read? We all have our strenghts and weaknes. That how it is and how it must be.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 4:36pm
People on this thread are confusing loosely related questions. Will respond to somewhat of these issues when I have time. Looping is now the dominant stroke in table tennis. Using pips means that you don't want this stroke to be the core of your game.

People shouldn't confuse table tennis of an earlier era with the modern game.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 4:37pm
I find that the people who hate to play against LP are those who haven't taken the time to learn how they work and play smart.  They're so accustomed to 1 style of play that anything out of the ordinary is "unfair".  I love playing against LP players, it makes you play smarter (if you plan on winning) which will only improve your overall game.
There's a guy at the local club that uses LP on 1 side - he twiddles and will use them on either FH or BH, though probably 90% BH.  He's a veteran player who topped out at around 2100 when he was younger (always with pips) and if you're not use to his style of play, he'll cause you fits.  He won't loop it past you or make highlight reel shots, but his placement and his spin variation is excellent.  If you're not paying attention he'll twiddle and toss in a surprisingly strong BH loop.  He's not one of those guys that will just push/block every ball with his LP - he's very aggressive with his pips and uses them more for offense than anything else.  I love playing this guy because he forces me to think, and move a lot and I think that my overall game has improved because of our matches.  I've only beaten him once, though lately most of our matches are very close.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 5:39pm
Just wait until the day a SP play makes it to #1 in the world, then you won't have to defend them anymore.


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Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Just wait until the day a SP play makes it to #1 in the world, then you won't have to defend them anymore.



I mean, I'm pretty sure there have been a ton of pip players at no.1 or right at the top, such as Jiang Jialiang, Deng Yaping, Wang Tao, Liu Guoliang, Chen Longcan, Hyun Jung-Hwa, Dai Lili, Geng Lijuan, Gao Jun, etc. etc. It's not like pips players have struggled over the years. The problem is that you can't play this type of game when the game has been slowed down so much. The advantage of pips players was their quick attack, but you can't quick attack with the 40mm ball AND no speed glue. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 6:30pm
Dun have to defend at the professional level... The last great sp player was forced to an earlier retirement by the rule changes that seemed to target him specifically by the ittf and he still went on to become the most dominate head coach in table tennis history... He took inverted players like zhang jike ma long ma Lin wang hao to new heights... If he was a lazy player who hide behind his pip that could have never be accomplished....

Yes loops and power loops are the main strokes now at the professional level because that was what the ittf intended to do from the beginning... But pips are still effective at the armature level... And I am just tired of people claiming we win because of our equipment... If we win we are better players, if they win they are the better players...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

Originally posted by power7 power7 wrote:

Just wait until the day a SP play makes it to #1 in the world, then you won't have to defend them anymore.



I mean, I'm pretty sure there have been a ton of pip players at no.1 or right at the top, such as Jiang Jialiang, Deng Yaping, Wang Tao, Liu Guoliang, Chen Longcan, Hyun Jung-Hwa, Dai Lili, Geng Lijuan, Gao Jun, etc. etc. It's not like pips players have struggled over the years. The problem is that you can't play this type of game when the game has been slowed down so much. The advantage of pips players was their quick attack, but you can't quick attack with the 40mm ball AND no speed glue. 


And the fact that certain pips have been banned doesn't help either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Usinf pips or anti to cover a weakness is only true if your view of the game is that it should be played with double inverted. .


You could replace "it should be played with double inverted" with "it should be played as the best players play it."
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 


Gao Jun was our club head club for over a year.  She routinely beat up 2600+ male players, including many top Chinese visitors.  Her shots are incredibly spinny even though she uses short pips (Challenger Attack 1.9mm in black).  The secret is she uses her entire body very well to spin the ball.  Her pushes off the serves are as heavy as any inverted player's.  However, she does not use "loop drive" like regular inverted loopers do to score points.  She uses many different spin on her shotmaking to force a weak ball to put away with a smash.  It's a very different game than inverted loopers who try to overwhelm their opponents with consistent and powerful loop drives.  I am speechless at those posters who think sp users like Gao Jun, LGL, Wang Tao, Teng Yi, Li Jiawei, Shen Yangfei and Johnny Huang use short pips to "cover up a weakness" or because "they couldn't master looping" to begin with.  These posters know next to nothing about table tennis.




For men, this is table tennis from a very different era. For the women, their game still permits diversity because they can't generate male power, so blocking and hitting are more predominant than looping even at high levels.  So women can use whatever they want, though the best women are mostly two winged loopers - no surprise there.

While some men do play the spin mixup game even with inverted, my real point was that if you use pips, you have pretty much given up on looping as your main shot.  Given that all the best players in the world today are two-winged loopers, making the choice not to loop can be viewed as admitting that there is something that stops you from simply overpowering the ball with tremendous topspin.  So the question becomes what it is about your game that makes you decide that backhand looping is not suited for it.  And answering that question often exposes something interesting, only because looping is the most formidable weapon in the sport (if it wasn't, the questions would surround whatever that weapon was.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 


Gao Jun was our club head club for over a year.  She routinely beat up 2600+ male players, including many top Chinese visitors.  Her shots are incredibly spinny even though she uses short pips (Challenger Attack 1.9mm in black).  The secret is she uses her entire body very well to spin the ball.  Her pushes off the serves are as heavy as any inverted player's.  However, she does not use "loop drive" like regular inverted loopers do to score points.  She uses many different spin on her shotmaking to force a weak ball to put away with a smash.  It's a very different game than inverted loopers who try to overwhelm their opponents with consistent and powerful loop drives.  I am speechless at those posters who think sp users like Gao Jun, LGL, Wang Tao, Teng Yi, Li Jiawei, Shen Yangfei and Johnny Huang use short pips to "cover up a weakness" or because "they couldn't master looping" to begin with.  These posters know next to nothing about table tennis.




For men, this is table tennis from a very different era. For the women, their game still permits diversity because they can't generate male power, so blocking and hitting are more predominant than looping even at high levels.  So women can use whatever they want, though the best women are mostly two winged loopers - no surprise there.

While some men do play the spin mixup game even with inverted, my real point was that if you use pips, you have pretty much given up on looping as your main shot.  Given that all the best players in the world today are two-winged loopers, making the choice not to loop can be viewed as admitting that there is something that stops you from simply overpowering the ball with tremendous topspin.  So the question becomes what it is about your game that makes you decide that backhand looping is not suited for it.  And answering that question often exposes something interesting, only because looping is the most formidable weapon in the sport (if it wasn't, the questions would surround whatever that weapon was.


Are you kidding me?  It's nearly impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you regarding anything in table tennis.  It's pretty much a waste of time to share any insight with you.  China could have still dominated men's table tennis today with a thousand Ding Songs and Liu Guoliangs instead of Ma Longs and Xu Xins if they wanted to.  In women's, just Wu Wang and Fang Yin alone would have been world champions if the Chinese wanted them to be.  The only reason they don't is simply because they don't want them to.  Do not confuse don't with can't.  Ma Long, ZJK and XX etc. get all the CNT top resources right now because it's working wonderfully for them.  If they decide to train only players with combo setups with short pips on one side, they will still dominate men's table tennis.  Ask any CNT level coach (I know many personally) and they will tell you double-inverted looping style is the easiest and fastest way to the top, but not the only way.  You are too hung up on what is the real "modern game". 

So, please NextLevel, let me repeat it one more time and hopefully you get it:  Double inverted looping is the easiest and fastest way to reach the top, as told by LGL (CNT mens head coach) and KLH (CNT womens head coach) personally to me.  That's why the CNT encourage most kids to follow this path because they are playing a sheer numbers game:  They have the most kids following the easiest and fastest way to the top in table tennis, so statistically they will also have the most numbers of high-level double inverted players than any other country.  It is not the only way but the most economical and fastest way for China to beat the rest of the world.  Other countries with less resources are just too dumb to be blindly following the Chinese path to play the same game, when they should be studying the most effective way to counter the Chinese double-inverted looping style.  They will never beat the Chinese at their own game.






Edited by roundrobin - 04/27/2013 at 10:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 11:30pm
Pips players don't need defending.  They can do quite well on their own.
Why doesn't the Mark V player simply loop the hard bat player off the table?

I wonder where these guys are hiding their weak backhands,  or fore hands for that matter?
One guy has a killer BH.

I still like playing hard bat.   With the right hard bat setup one can be very aggressive.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/27/2013 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

 

Are you kidding me?  It's nearly impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you regarding anything in table tennis.  It's pretty much a waste of time to share any insight with you.  China could have still dominated men's table tennis today with a thousand Ding Songs and Liu Guoliangs instead of Ma Longs and Xu Xins if they wanted to.  In women's, just Wu Wang and Fang Yin alone would have been world champions if the Chinese wanted them to be.  The only reason they don't is simply because they don't want them to.  Do not confuse don't with can't.  Ma Long, ZJK and XX etc. get all the CNT top resources right now because it's working wonderfully for them.  If they decide to train only players with combo setups with short pips on one side, they will still dominate men's table tennis.  Ask any CNT level coach (I know many personally) and they will tell you double-inverted looping style is the easiest and fastest way to the top, but not the only way.  You are too hung up on what is the real "modern game". 

So, please NextLevel, let me repeat it one more time and hopefully you get it:  Double inverted looping is the easiest and fastest way to reach the top, as told by LGL (CNT mens head coach) and KLH (CNT womens head coach) personally to me.  That's why the CNT encourage most kids to follow this path because they are playing a sheer numbers game:  They have the most kids following the easiest and fastest way to the top in table tennis, so statistically they will also have the most numbers of high-level double inverted players than any other country.  It is not the only way but the most economical and fastest way for China to beat the rest of the world.  Other countries with less resources are just too dumb to be blindly following the Chinese path to play the same game, when they should be studying the most effective way to counter the Chinese double-inverted looping style.  They will never beat the Chinese at their own game.




Okay, thanks roundrobin, you made some excellent points, but also some that I am still thinking about. To avoid getting too deeply involved in this argument, let me tell you guys about some of my musings.
As I wrote about it on a few occasions, in the past for over a year I tried to do what Johnny Huang did, pips both sides on shakehand. I had read some really great postings from a few years back by Kees and Agooding2 about the potential of short pips play and it was very appealing to me... well, I had some nice moments that way, currently I am back to inverted both sides because I was not able to learn to use my pips as the precise rapier against the loopers sword-too old, too slow on my feet... Turned out too difficult for me. However, perhaps THIS CAN BE DONE by some well coached talented kid, just maybe? Zhan Jian does not seem to be the most supported Chinese player, but I have seen him (and others one side pips, like Li JiaWei) win brilliantly over excellent loopers. So, may be the top level short pips hitting legacy can still live, the rapier outplaying the sword? May be we can have a short-pips-using world champion one day?


Edited by JacekGM - 04/27/2013 at 11:56pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbkon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 12:17am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Usinf pips or anti to cover a weakness is only true if your view of the game is that it should be played with double inverted. .


You could replace "it should be played with double inverted" with "it should be played as the best players play it."


2 world champions guo yuehua and xi enting played with SP and then played smooth rubbers  and both became champion, if they would have been weak  technically  they couldnt have won any tittle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 12:47am
Originally posted by bbkon bbkon wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Speedplay Speedplay wrote:

Usinf pips or anti to cover a weakness is only true if your view of the game is that it should be played with double inverted. .


You could replace "it should be played with double inverted" with "it should be played as the best players play it."


2 world champions guo yuehua and xi enting played with SP and then played smooth rubbers  and both became champion, if they would have been weak  technically  they couldnt have won any tittle


Read what I said - it is not about "weak technically".

1.  That was a different era in table tennis.  Then, hitting was still in the ascendancy.
2.  The fact that they switched to inverted proves the point that if you can loop, given the power in the modern game and the 40mm ball etc., only someone who has a reason to give up all that inverted gives you would use pips.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/28/2013 at 1:02am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

i agree... but i always assumed power = spin + speed so relatively speaking in my eyes i have much lower power then if i were to play an inverted setup...
Gao Jun is probably a whole level above a 2500 player... i doubt she will have more spin then an inverted player at her level... 
But either way spinning power loop is probably not any sp player's cup of tea anyways... cool to have but probably not necessary 


Gao Jun was our club head club for over a year.  She routinely beat up 2600+ male players, including many top Chinese visitors.  Her shots are incredibly spinny even though she uses short pips (Challenger Attack 1.9mm in black).  The secret is she uses her entire body very well to spin the ball.  Her pushes off the serves are as heavy as any inverted player's.  However, she does not use "loop drive" like regular inverted loopers do to score points.  She uses many different spin on her shotmaking to force a weak ball to put away with a smash.  It's a very different game than inverted loopers who try to overwhelm their opponents with consistent and powerful loop drives.  I am speechless at those posters who think sp users like Gao Jun, LGL, Wang Tao, Teng Yi, Li Jiawei, Shen Yangfei and Johnny Huang use short pips to "cover up a weakness" or because "they couldn't master looping" to begin with.  These posters know next to nothing about table tennis.




For men, this is table tennis from a very different era. For the women, their game still permits diversity because they can't generate male power, so blocking and hitting are more predominant than looping even at high levels.  So women can use whatever they want, though the best women are mostly two winged loopers - no surprise there.

While some men do play the spin mixup game even with inverted, my real point was that if you use pips, you have pretty much given up on looping as your main shot.  Given that all the best players in the world today are two-winged loopers, making the choice not to loop can be viewed as admitting that there is something that stops you from simply overpowering the ball with tremendous topspin.  So the question becomes what it is about your game that makes you decide that backhand looping is not suited for it.  And answering that question often exposes something interesting, only because looping is the most formidable weapon in the sport (if it wasn't, the questions would surround whatever that weapon was.


Are you kidding me?  It's nearly impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you regarding anything in table tennis.  It's pretty much a waste of time to share any insight with you.  China could have still dominated men's table tennis today with a thousand Ding Songs and Liu Guoliangs instead of Ma Longs and Xu Xins if they wanted to.  In women's, just Wu Wang and Fang Yin alone would have been world champions if the Chinese wanted them to be.  The only reason they don't is simply because they don't want them to.  Do not confuse don't with can't.  Ma Long, ZJK and XX etc. get all the CNT top resources right now because it's working wonderfully for them.  If they decide to train only players with combo setups with short pips on one side, they will still dominate men's table tennis.  Ask any CNT level coach (I know many personally) and they will tell you double-inverted looping style is the easiest and fastest way to the top, but not the only way.  You are too hung up on what is the real "modern game". 

So, please NextLevel, let me repeat it one more time and hopefully you get it:  Double inverted looping is the easiest and fastest way to reach the top, as told by LGL (CNT mens head coach) and KLH (CNT womens head coach) personally to me.  That's why the CNT encourage most kids to follow this path because they are playing a sheer numbers game:  They have the most kids following the easiest and fastest way to the top in table tennis, so statistically they will also have the most numbers of high-level double inverted players than any other country.  It is not the only way but the most economical and fastest way for China to beat the rest of the world.  Other countries with less resources are just too dumb to be blindly following the Chinese path to play the same game, when they should be studying the most effective way to counter the Chinese double-inverted looping style.  They will never beat the Chinese at their own game.






Sometimes, your reasoning is funny.  Of course, double inverted is the easiest and fastest way to reach the top *if you have all the trappings to play with it*.  So the question is why would someone not play with it.  And your answer is simply to say that you can't have a meaningful exchange with me.

It's up to you to believe that if a player was the best player in China and he used pips that he would be disqualified from CNT for that reason. I know that sort of thing happened in the past (for double inverted shakehand players)  and if it still happens today for pips players, feel free to share.  If you decide to take any other equipment than double inverted, there must be something that makes double inverted not suited to your style.  But the fact that it allows you to attack the ball with the most power, speed and spin means that you must be lacking in one of these three things to not use it.  Or maybe your movement doesn't support it.  But if it is purely temperament/style, the versatility of inverted in playing at multiple distances from the table will overwhelm that.

As I have admitted, I don't think it's purely about equipment as some of the rule changes around what kinds of pips are allowed favor double inverted tremendously.  But again, no one has explained why given the level of power in the modern men's game that any equipment can seriously compete with inverted.


Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2013 at 1:04am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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