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    Posted: 09/12/2013 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by jt99sf jt99sf wrote:

http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2013/06/13/hollywood-theatre-goes-digital-has-plans-for-70mm

Celluloid is not dead since the film industry is going to use the 70mm format.


Celluloid hasn't been used in film for well over 50 years now.  Film guys use the term "celluloid" rather loosely - perhaps out of nostalgia.  But the industry switched to cellulose acetate or other materials quite some time ago.  I think before I was born.

Sharara made the same mistake when he quite mistakenly stated that the bad things about celluloid (like those pesky but hard to find celluloid fibers) are some of the reasons why the film industry is moving to digital - thus demonstrating how poorly he has researched this subject.


Edited by wturber - 09/12/2013 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2013 at 3:12pm
http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2013/06/13/hollywood-theatre-goes-digital-has-plans-for-70mm

Celluloid is not dead since the film industry is going to use the 70mm format.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/12/2013 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I just got this email. If its already been posted, please delete it for me.


On Friday, June 28, 2013, equipment ittf wrote:
Message from the ITTF President to Manufacturers of ITTF Approved Equipment

Dear Friends,

This official message is to update you with regard to the plastic balls to eventually replace the celluloid balls. There are a couple of issues to explain, but in general all is on track and we do not see any problems in using the new plastic balls once they are approved for the established date of 1 July 2014 as planned.
<snip>
2.3 There is also a patent owned by two persons, of which one is related to Dr. Kuhn. I can confirm that the materials described in this patent are DIFFERENT than the materials used for the seamless ball (Co.X) and the materials used for the plastic balls with seams (DHS and DF). This is confirmed by all companies currently involved in the production of plastic balls. Therefore THERE IS NO PATENT ISSUE.

2.4 I urge all concerned, especially the distributors, NOT to create an issue where it does NOT exist. Do NOT meet with Dr. Kuhn. It is not necessary. And do NOT pay anything to Dr. Kuhn or his relatives or friends with regard to the patent. This is NOT necessary. The supply of balls from China is not affected by this patent.

2.5 In the unlikely scenario that the patent held by Dr. Kuhn's connections becomes relevant, then the ITTF will immediately step in to solve the problem. Until then, there is NO ISSUE.

I hope that this message is clear and that now we can all concentrate on developing our sport and anticipate top quality plastic balls not only from China but from all over the world.

Sincerely,

Adham Sharara
President


Now this from Larry Thoman ...

Got an email from FIT updating me on the patent issue surrounding the poly ball. FIT hired an attorney to evaluate the poly ball patents worldwide and provide an opinion on whether FIT members would be subject to patent infringement lawsuits if they chose to produce non-celluloid balls.

It was the judgement of that attorney that indeed companies who produce, sell, or distribute non-celluloid balls in the countries protected by those patents--Europe, US, China, Japan, and possibly Korea if it approves the patent application--could be subject to "enormous legal disputes and litigation". Therefore, the attorney recommended that FIT members restrain from the sale of non-celluloid TT balls.

FIT will have meetings at the European Championships and World Cup to discuss the legal findings and what actions to take. But unless something happens pretty quickly to resolve this matter of patent infringement, my guess is that the ITTF will have no choice but to delay implementation beyond 7/1/14 as no manufacturer is going to take a chance on producing the new balls if they are likely to be subjected to patent infringement lawsuits as soon as they do.

The lawyer also stated there was an easy way to circumvent the patents if it was possible--simply include a small amount (he suggested 5%) of celluloid in the plastic formulation for the new balls. Whether that is possible or not, I haven't heard, and the lawyer's report does not address that possibility.

The report also said that a German Company--Weener Plastik GmbH--has challenged the European patent on grounds of insufficient disclosure, inadmissible extension beyond the content of the application as filed, lack of novelty, and lack of an inventive step. Such legal actions typically take several years to resolve, but in the lawyer's opinion, he believes that Weener will ultimately prevail.

Lastly, the lawyer contacted ITTF about his findings and to get a reaction to the problems noted therein. And--surprise, surprise--the ITTF has not responded.

Larry


So, I guess we can expect Sharara to step in and resolve this as he promised.  BTW, if the rumors are true that they've now stopped producing celluloid balls due to the impending move to poly, then we could have a problem if FIT members won't make/ship/sell poly balls.  With both sources potentially drying up we could end up with a ball shortage.  That would be a huge irony since the claimed main goal of promoting the new poly ball was to avoid a shortage.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dici Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/05/2013 at 12:58am
Originally posted by schen schen wrote:

A new article about the plastic ball was just published on tabletennista.


On another note, one thing they didn't mention is that the new plastic ball STINGS when you are accidentally hit by it.  Taking a loop or a smash to the finger or any other part of skin with the new ball is no fun :(


As the other said, he is William, not Andrew. And the video is so old, it was last year before the olympic, i think. The author should had been more carefully on writing an article.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2013 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by schen schen wrote:

A new article about the plastic ball was just published on tabletennista.


On another note, one thing they didn't mention is that the new plastic ball STINGS when you are accidentally hit by it.  Taking a loop or a smash to the finger or any other part of skin with the new ball is no fun :(


That's William Henzell, not Andrew Baggaley testing the new ball Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2013 at 5:41pm
A new article about the plastic ball was just published on tabletennista.


On another note, one thing they didn't mention is that the new plastic ball STINGS when you are accidentally hit by it.  Taking a loop or a smash to the finger or any other part of skin with the new ball is no fun :(


Edited by schen - 07/04/2013 at 5:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amateur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2013 at 10:28am
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

Still feeling unhappy over Palio ball play?
Just make one tiny puncture into the ball's shell. You will be happily surprised at how better the ball plays with the pin hole.
would making a small hole be legal? probably not...


not as long as you use an ITTF-approved ball piercer (to be sold by Butterfly for $25) Wink




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/04/2013 at 10:06am
Originally posted by igorponger igorponger wrote:

Still feeling unhappy over Palio ball play?
Just make one tiny puncture into the ball's shell. You will be happily surprised at how better the ball plays with the pin hole.
would making a small hole be legal? probably not...


Edited by JacekGM - 07/04/2013 at 8:43pm
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 11:00pm
... and as we exchange nice ideasWink, others are already seriously evaluating the seamless ball:Clap

The ball is said to hit the table with the sound of a broken celluloid ball, and have a flatter, fast trajectory, with underspin dying out in the flight faster. It supposedly requires more forward-oriented strokes, such that the style of Timo Ball-like topspin attack may become extinguished, it is feared. Fast rallies close to the table, Chinese style, may benefit. Oh boy... I hope we will like it...


Edited by JacekGM - 07/02/2013 at 11:02pm
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chop4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 10:47pm
I actually can make a firework rocket by only one ball and a piece of allu-wrap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 6:50pm
Oranges are flammable!!!



More about orange flammability: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00857.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 6:41pm
Flammable Common Household Products:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 6:34pm
Flammable plastic:




Edited by Mastermind - 07/02/2013 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mastermind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 6:15pm
Celluloid balls are flammable and absolutely safe under usual conditions.

The same goes for newspapers, for example. Never heard anyone claim newspapers are gangerous, because they are flammable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 2:03pm
Well, I don't think that flammable balls should be banned. But I feel like some people don't really believe they're flammable. So a video of them actually combusting is the first I've seen.

The safety nannies of the world want everything that's even slightly dangerous banned forever.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 1:59pm
Everyone knows celluloid is highly flammable... So are lots of other totally legal and safe things. Let's ban Eucalyptus leaves maybe?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by j-bo j-bo wrote:

Not this again.. Thumbs Down


Palio should release a similar video with crushed seamless balls to show how "safe" they are when ignited!  Wink  Betcha the smoke will be pitch black and will kill ya in 30 seconds if inhaled!  LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote j-bo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 1:43pm
Not this again.. Thumbs Down



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 1:09pm
An interesting video I came across on a website. If it's true, there's more merit to the ITTF's claim about the celluloid dust being dangerous, because if they combust this fast in solid form, it'd be scary in dust form.




Edited by BMonkey - 07/02/2013 at 1:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gatorling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 11:18am
I'm not exactly a mechanical/aerospace engineer..or have much experience in fluid dynamics so maybe someone else can chime in here.

When a ball spins it creates a differential in air flow speed with relationship to the spin. For underspin the air is moving fast on the top of the ball is comparison to the air under the ball.
This creates a low pressure zone on top of the ball and a higher pressure zone underneath the ball.
What you get is "lift" effect. Do the opposite and you get a "drag down" effect.

When you have a seam the seam will cause the ball to catch more of the air and you end up with a more pronounced lift or drag down effect.

Of course a table tennis ball is far from perfect, if the ball is rotating the the seams are perpendicular to the rotation then you will get more spin. If the seam is parallel then you will get slightly less spin.
The ideal gemoetry for consistency is a perfectly round ball with no seams but a good compromise is something like a golf ball..where you have intentional dimples. Of course this would result in strange bounces..so maybe settling for something closer to a baseball is OK.

So yes, seam affects the EFFECTS of spin on the ball but should not affect how much spin is imparted onto the ball.

A seamed ball obviously is much easier to produce as you can control the wall thickness of the ball relatively easily using molds.

A seamless ball however would be difficult to create. Maybe they just take a small solid ball and inflate it while it is under heat. It would be very difficult to create a uniform wall thickness while maintaining tight weight tolerances and roundness.

A seamless ball will obviously result in a much more expensive ball until they solve production issues. Like the report says, the yields are abysmal.

The end result?
Expensive table tennis balls and possible shortages for the first several months of production (maybe even the first year of production).

Which is why ITTF is planning for a phased introduction.

To be honest a executive decision needs to be made and the balls must not be released until yields and tolerances meets or exceeds today's table tennis ball yields and tolerances.
To do anything else would result in a complete mess and endless frustration for players.

I for one, would hate to see tournament results determined by which ball is being used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 10:08am
Release of internal pressure?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seguso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 9:54am
interesting... then maybe it's the lack of seam that makes it spin different? once you introduce an irregularity, it starts spinning more?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2013 at 6:53am
Still feeling unhappy over Palio ball play?
Just make one tiny puncture into the ball's shell. You will be happily surprised at how better the ball plays with the pin hole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisUK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2013 at 6:59am
What's actually more worrying is from reading the above, players could turn up at a league match and face:

- The current 40mm ball
- The new seamless poly ball
- The new poly ball but with seams

Surely all three will play differently and I'd rather not face that situation. I think leagues will have to decide on one version and not allow a choice. Otherwise it's going to be a mess!



Edited by ChrisUK - 07/01/2013 at 7:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoFootwork Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2013 at 9:56am
Originally posted by garwor garwor wrote:

Ignore new plastic balls. TT is about feeling, not about equipment. We are developing feeling for years, just to allow some bad people to change rules to earn more money? Our years/decades spent for nothing? We are just idiots who spend more and more money on something that once was cheap?
Stop with this.
Ignore new changes in any kind of equipment.

The problem is that if your national association adopts the ITTF rules for balls (and all will if they want to have their representatives playing in ITTF events), then we as amateur players will also be forced to play with the poly-ball if we want to play in our National association sanctioned tournaments.

That will trickle down to clubs.  Players that want to play sanctioned tournaments will want to play with poly balls.  Those that don't or will stop playing tournaments will stay with celluloid balls until that supply runs out.  You will get 2 ball playing populations in a club and that will reduce the number of different players you may want to/can play against, depending on ball choice.

Tournament entry form will need to specific which of the 3 balls will be used in the event.  We will need to practice playing with all 3 or stop playing tournaments OuchDead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emihet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 10:56pm
maybe it is time to start playing tennis again...table tennis now feels like a dysfunctional sport...
the question then becomes: does this sport deserve the recognition and rewards of the other solid, unwavering sports...



Edited by emihet - 06/29/2013 at 10:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote garwor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 9:42pm
Ignore new plastic balls. TT is about feeling, not about equipment. We are developing feeling for years, just to allow some bad people to change rules to earn more money? Our years/decades spent for nothing? We are just idiots who spend more and more money on something that once was cheap?
Stop with this.
Ignore new changes in any kind of equipment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 4:52pm
WHY IS THE SEAMLESS BALL SO SPRINGY. (my personal discovery).

As is now well known, in making the seamless balls a production process of "thermal rotational moulding" TRM would be used.
Along the process, when heating the spherical mold, the melt of polymer substance as confined inside the mold will release some gases, thus causing an extra pressure inside the product (the ball's sphere).

You can affectively visualize this extra pressure through holding a simple experiment.

--Just put the seamless ball into a glass can of water (room t* water is reguired), and then prick through the ball's wall with the handy awl.
You can see a big air bulb coming out of the ball. Very big. This is to show up how much extra pressure may the seamless balls contain in.

Thus can we see an essential fact of reality that the seamless ball is a PRESSURIZED BALL anyway.
Is not this a good reason for the ball being unduly springy ?? Yes, it is.... I guess.

FOOT NOTE: Those people utterly displeased with the excessive ball bounce, don't use those balls formed in the TRM machine. All those are pressurized and thus overly bouncy.
You had better try the DHS balls with normal bounce, with normal inner air pressure.

Edited by igorponger - 06/29/2013 at 6:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoFootwork Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by Peter C Peter C wrote:

lI'm of the same opinion as you; it makes more sense for the ITTF to authorise the seamed polyball for production.

In my opinion; I think the ITTF should have delayed the authorisation of the seamless polyball; until the manufacturers could prove they can produce a seamless polyball, with a consistent bounce.

I think there is a method to ITTF's madness on this push.  Clearly they want a poly-ball and the most likely reason has to do with financial gain, whether by presumably slowing down the game, attracting a bigger audience and thereby additional revenues or by forcing players world wide to buy new blades/rubbers that may play better with the poly-ball.

So why 2014 and not wait for a better seamless ball.  They are under time pressure to allow some time for players to adapt before the next Singles World Championships in 2015 and the next Olympics in 2016.  I'm presuming the World Team Championships will be before July 2014 so those will be played with the current celluloid ball.

By authorizing both seamless and seamed poly-balls they are hedging their bet that at least 1 poly-ball will be consistently good enough (at least per the ITTF.)  This gives the seamless ball more time to continue to improve past July 2014 if it is to survive market competition with the seamed poly-ball.  If it does, we will have a seamless ball that could be better than a poly-ball with a seam.  If it doesn't, the ITTF will have a seamed poly-ball in place without having to push back their July 2014 implementation date.

The game won't be slowed down much for any length of time with the introduction of the poly-ball.  ITTF already published a report where they were testing a 4.2 mm rubber.  Why include a rubber that is thicker than currently legally allowed if they want to slow down the game?  Players will learn to use more body and flat hit close at table to get speed into the game.  Equipment manufacturers will introduce faster equipment to compensate for loss of speed from the ball.  If the ITTF is serious about reducing speed, they should limit the speed of blades and rubbers as well, maybe legalize only all wood 3 ply blade construction or something like that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2013 at 12:48pm
loop+loop

I'm of the same opinion as you; it makes more sense for the ITTF to authorise the seamed polyball for production.

In my opinion; I think the ITTF should have delayed the authorisation of the seamless polyball; until the manufacturers could prove they can produce a seamless polyball, with a consistent bounce.

Sadly that is not the case and the problem of the inconsistent bounce of the seamless polyball is clearly highlighted in the video's by bogeyhunter, on another thread.

Sadly for the sport; they are more interested in expediency and financial gain, rather than providing a good product for the market.
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