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The power of criss-cross blocking. |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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Posted: 07/08/2013 at 6:28pm |
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Most peculiar and yet effectual playing style to beat the "skilled" youngsters. Playing criss-cross blocking off the bounce over the table, =cici style, will make the "skilled" guys feel some panic and disturb their game outright. Most young masters do have too little brain power to answer the "cc" style properly. I'm a steady upholder and hot gospeller of the style. Be you an olderman or a sapling, you can happily adopt this style to your better advantage. Good luck. |
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stiltt
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you look pretty good in that red t-shirt igor
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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The title of the clip is " My New Idol", the guy has been playing for only three years and has no coach ("coaches himself"); it also says that he had recent success in the tournament of some kind where he beat a great attacker who later became the champion. The comments under the clip say that Alexey (Lyokha) plays pips on one side and antispin on another, and in the past used to play just one side of the racket. My comment: I am not thrilled with the antispin-pips combo, there are probably good ways to beat this type of player. Suggestions? |
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Hip hip Hoorah for another PUSH BLOCKER ! Is there any more videos available for him ? What would be his estimated USA rating ? |
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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Let's say you loop (not so powerfully) cross court (your FH to his FH), and he blocks it to your backhand side, just simply drop the ball short to his BH side. The principle is that you will force him to open up the opposite side and then that's when you hit a strong loop on the return to the now vulnerable wide FH side. If down the line (your FH to his BH) and let's say he blocks it back to your FH, simply place it short on his FH side. This will expose the BH side as he tries to run to catch the ball. Then go for a strong loop to the widely exposed BH side of the opponent. In other words, just open up wide angles before going for the strong loop kill to prevent yourself getting caught on a slow recovery. If you just keep looping it back just for the sake of looping it strong all the time, he will catch you off guard with one of his blocks like when you fail to recover fast enough. Hope that made sense. |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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LOL - that last guy you're playing looks so dejected...
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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Yeah, it seems the obvious answer is to take off some pace. Maybe lift some balls with heavy topspin to see if you can get a slower, higher ball back. I used to do this to traditional pen hold bh blockers, but I haven't seen one in years.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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gatorling
Super Member Joined: 06/09/2010 Location: Florida, USA Status: Offline Points: 381 |
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This style would drive me insane. Although the guy plays with a "junk" style, it looks amazingly effective against attackers. I'd love to see him play against a strong pips player who can block it short and dead as well as good lobbers (Like Adam Bobrow)
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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Davidwhang said:
"Let's say you loop (not so powerfully) cross court (your FH to his FH), and he blocks it to your backhand side, just simply drop the ball short to his BH side. The principle is that you will force him to open up the opposite side and then that's when you hit a strong loop on the return to the now vulnerable wide FH side.
If down the line (your FH to his BH) and let's say he blocks it back to your FH, simply place it short on his FH side. This will expose the BH side as he tries to run to catch the ball. Then go for a strong loop to the widely exposed BH side of the opponent." ============================================
Interesting strategy. But remember, the guy is fast - he hits the ball early, right off its bounce.
After your serve, the ball may come back to you real quick. May need a 2000 level player with fast feet to handle that. (One doesn't know which side he is going to hit - to the left or to the right or to the middle, thus one needs fast feet.) Edited by skip3119 - 07/09/2013 at 10:52am |
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skip3119
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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This thread should be titled "the power of using unusual equipment to drive opponents insane".
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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davidz
Super Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 143 |
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I guess he is about 2000 USATT rating. Worst playing styles vs. blocker are: try to play
blocking, service simple (side) topspin balls, play weak topspin balls with
weak looping and attacking, and return high short ball.
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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That's why you give slow balls at first, so that the blocks wouldn't return insanely fast at you. If you notice in the video, the opponent is looping very hard, partly the reason why the blocks are coming in so fast as well :) But yes, you'd have to have good feet and ball placement for the strategy to work :) |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
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Also he's looping to the fh corner, which puts them right into the blockers pattern.
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nathanso
Super Member Joined: 11/22/2008 Location: RedwoodCity, CA Status: Offline Points: 431 |
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It must be human nature because I see many players making the same tactical error when faced with such a placement-oriented player: They tend to return the ball right to the blocker's center court over and over, as if it can somehow "re-balance" the kooky rally! All this does is make it far easier for the push-blocker as he doesn't have to move at all (many have poor footwork to begin with) and he can continue to attack every ball right off the bounce.
Fight this tendency and place the ball to the corners. |
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BBC, SP, LP
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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For that kind of pushblocker (PB) playing style, the PB always gets to the ball early and strike it right off the bounce - each and every point. It is their style and their habit, they are used to and good at it.
Place the ball to the different corners trying to move the PB? I afraid that oneself may get moved, rather than moving the PB.
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skip3119
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bonggoy
Super Member Joined: 11/18/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 475 |
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How do you drop short a long ball? Other than blockers with Anti or Long Pips, I've never seen this done before. Edited by bonggoy - 07/09/2013 at 5:09pm |
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cole_ely
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It doesn't have to be super short. It's a big plus if there's no topspin to allow him to lift the ball, and no pace to use. A low, flat knuckle buster with no spin and minimal pace could be considered a drop shot of sorts.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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I played a guy who plays similar with either anti or LP on one side - has 2 different paddles. He uses inverted on his 4H with serious offensive firepower. He uses a Seemiller grip. This player if you make a weak TS or BS shot he kills it. He also kills some serves in his zone. I can beat him but I have to be methodical.
Make sure you are using a brand new ball when playing a Push Blocker, which should be a given, but in some clubs they play with used balls.
Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 07/09/2013 at 7:53pm |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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JacekGM
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I would say, because of his agility and good anticipation, he is probably even better than US 2000.
I wonder how he would manage against a good hitter, or against a chopper. Look what igorponger has done again ...
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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ikaros
Member Joined: 01/10/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 83 |
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those others players were loosing against themselves. Ir might sound weird but sometimes the key to beat these kind of players is to play a simple game rather than your own. serve long and flat,change the pace, loop with half power but with lots of spin and if he reverse it be ready to push the ball instead of re loop and you can also punish his serve in this case it was very long.
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Galaxy Yinhe W6 penhold
Fh: Yasaka Rakza 7 2.0 Bh: Butterfly Cermet 2.1 |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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Firstly ;I would tell him he can't do volley ball serves, by tossing the ball forward and moving to the ball
secondly ;I only saw one short serve to him and he popped it up , the long serves never seemed to work thirdly ;you need to keep playing players like him and try harder pushes and as Nathan said good loops to the corners especially backhand fourthly ;the anti is making "your" shots drop so a higher lift is important fifthly ; take your time and plan between serves, he is speeding the game up I do like how he plays, as in his serving for a reason and constantly attacking the angles etc, many would find him style hard to adapt to
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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... to be fair to Lyokha, he posted the clip with a goal in mind: by the end of his clip he has a little rumble where he advertises his style as a better alternative to the defensive style with long pips..." If you are a beginner and over thirty, have no coach but are 20-40 pounds overweight, yet still have the desire to win - you do not have to play long pips, hold the ball, wait for opponent's error and defend - come on, there is an alternative!" he says. I kinda agree... I would rather do this than the long pips...
On a related note, from personal experience and as others recommended here, when playing Seemiller-style blockers don't give loose balls to these guys, they will place the return superbly... Use good surprising serves, move them, make them block when way out of position...
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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bonggoy
Super Member Joined: 11/18/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 475 |
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No topspin and no pace? The ball must not be moving then :D.
Again, how do you execute this against Igor? He rarely blocks or pushes passively. He is very good at using angles to his advantage. He constantly moves the ball. I would argue that a short balls, even not so short ball like you mentioned will get be to Igor's advantage. He seems to like it even. He is able to jab/push when ball is short especially in the middle. The only weakness I see that I can take advantage of is in his forehand side. He is relatively weak there. I noticed a few missed blocks and a few missed serve return. I would play him like how I play Seemiler type blockers. Spin deep to wide angle. Wide FH then to wide BH or wide BH then wide to forehand. I will rarely place any ball in the middle as he likes to work the angles from here. |
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JacekGM
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Igor, speak up: is it you or Lyokha (Alexey)?
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(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Pongz
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Just regarding the strategy, the issue that I find is that the push blocker controls the rally left and right without him need to move much... he is pretty much in the center.. In my club, there is a short pip penholder playing very much like this... I found that if my placement is not deep and wide, he will control the rally... so maybe concentrate first to return serve or loop deep and wide If you return in the middle, no good.. he will get the angle and control the rally... Secondly, try pinch him on one corner... rather than following his rythm left and right.. Otherwise, your return will be weaker start going to the middle and again he will control the rally.. Against the player in my club, I return everything deep and wide into his backhand... and he stops taking me out of extreme angles... only cross court to my backhand and down the line to my forehand... Cheers
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LUCKYLOOP
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The Push Blocker Style has emerged in different ways with the ERA of the 40 mm ball. I am even trying different paddle combos emulating these guys for fun, variation and to see if I can compete playing their style. Since I play shake hand then I twiddle a lot to take advantage of situations. I hit one shot the other day with LP OX Crop Circles that was like a capital L shape at the end of the stroke breaking about one foot in the air before hitting the table. I have never seen a shot like that happen in all my days. My opponent obviously didn't get it back as he was setting up to hit it since it was about a foot high above the net. I didn't miss hit the ball it was solid contact. We got a big laugh out of that shot. In my opinion, all the variety makes this hobby even more fun, win or lose. Edited by LUCKYLOOP - 07/09/2013 at 11:04pm |
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tt4me
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I agree. The punch blocker plays a very simple game and plays it well. Just about every stroke is a bunch block. Even his serves are bunch block like serves. There is no doubt he is better than the two opponents he played. His opponents didn't every seem to get into the match. The blocker got the pace up quickly with his punch block serve. His opponents were rarely hitting the ball faster than the blocker. I am surprised that there were few attempts to attack the punch blocker's serves. They were usually fast and long. You know there can't be much spin on the ball if the punch blocker is serving with anti or LP. I would start by attacking the serves. On my serves I would serve short. The reason for this is that it is hard to open up the paddle the way the punch blocker is holding it. If the serve is kept low the punch blocker would have to hit the ball up and then it is third ball attack time. I think the opponents were right to try to slow down the rallies by lofting the ball a little but do it in the corners. That would make the punch blocker move. There is a limit about area in front of the punch blocker where he can actually punch block. If the ball can be hit wide the punch blocker will have to swing at the ball. I bet the punch blocker isn't as good make swing type of strokes. It would be interesting to use Cory Eider type of high serves ( remember the Cory Eider vs Pushblocker match ) to see what the punch blocker would do with them. Maybe this is unrealistic or unfair because Cory Eider is much better anyway and could risk a fast return. I have what I call my safety shot. It is a slow spinny loop into the opponents BH corner. I would make use of them a lot. Punch blocker reminds about Pushblocker and Amilie Solja. They play awkward styles and try to force their game on their opponents. For only three years of playing I think this punch blocker is doing well but the next video should be against better opponents. The punch blockers are much more aggressive than passive blocking with LPs or anti. |
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bonggoy
Super Member Joined: 11/18/2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 475 |
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The high serve tactic Cory Eider used against pushblocker (PB) only worked because PB covers 95% of the table with his backhand. They have two different style. PB is a pushblocker (tada!!!), while the guy in the video is more of a punch blocker like you said. He pounced on anything short and slow. Usually at tough angle. The only time I see him play a safe shot is when something is looped to his forehand. A deep low spinny loop is probably the best against him. You will have a better chance as long as you are dictating the pace of the game. If I am not so ingrained with the style I have, I would be a push blocker. Edited by bonggoy - 07/10/2013 at 10:12am |
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NextLevel
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Coach McAfee was once a two-winged looper, and now he is short pips forehand and long pips backhand. So don't be shy, you can do it!
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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blahness
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I seriously don't understand why so many inverted players like to take the ball so late, they seem to like taking the ball when it is at the dropping phase, then spin the ball up high, waiting for an off the bounce reply from their opponent to a difficult angle which will make them run..... Perhaps if they spent a few months playing some hardbat off the bounce countering, hitting and blocking, they would improve tremendously.
This type of criss-cross blocking will always happen, when one player consistently hits the ball later/shorter than his opponent, which has nothing to do with the equipment that one uses. This would open up angles for the other player to easily exploit. I would have exploited his opponents using criss-cross blocking easily (i'm an inverted player), considering how slow the pace that his opponents played at and the general lack of power of their strokes and poor footwork. To be honest, sometimes a quick off-the-bounce push against a long ball, when kept low, placed at a difficult angle and reasonably fast is more effective than a slow loop, because they give their opponent less time to react and get them out of position. IMO the most effective loops should be done like counters, with minimal arm backswing, maintaining good body balance, taking the ball early, not taken late like lots of inverted players like to play. |
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