MMaze vs Viscaria

I agree that I don't get the notion that a blade favors a forehand or a backhand, certainly not with all of the variations in stroke technique that exist!  (This is for ordinary blades like Viscaria, not one of those weird asymmetric blades made for use with long pips).  I really don't buy it for a second.  I would certainly not buy this idea just because there are "EJs" in China who supposedly say it.  By the way, the fact that someone is an EJ is in China does not make him more authoritative.  There are many reasons why Stiga blades are popular in China.  For a long time, one of them has been price.  I have spent quite a bit of time in China, have played in many clubs in Beijing, Chengdu, Shanghai among other places, and I have many friends there who are ordinary people who play well.  The remarkable thing about the level of good amateurs players in China is not their level.  Frankly it is about the same as the level of good amateur players the in US and Europe I have seen.  It is the shear number of players.  The other thing you notice immediately is how many of them are really good with old beat up blades they have been using forever, and crappy rubber they never change.  The average income in China has risen to $730/month (higher in places like Shanghai and Beijing, where living costs are also much higher).  Very few amateur players, especially if they are married, would be willing to spend $115 for an authentic Viscaria, or any of the new composite blades from Butterfly.  The guys who are real EJs there are of necessity in an very unusual high range of the income scale, and this means that TT is not their main thing in life.  I have met and played guys like that too in China.  One guy I remember well had an Amultart.  He was a banker and he was terrible.  I took it really easy on him so he would not lose face.  So why would they know more than anyone here?  Also silly ideas catch on.  

Maybe that's it.

sweetstrike wrote: I remember seeing a picture of a broken maze which had the WRB style hollow handle. Does Viscaria have a hollow handle?

zeio wrote: Viscaria is almost unanimously worshipped as the blade with perhaps the most versatile backhand yet highly demanding forehand among EJs and non-EJs alike in China.  OTOH, Stiga blades are widely praised for their forehand prowess and feel.  Posts often pop up daily telling how bad or great it feels on either the forehand or backhand side whenever a person switches from one to the other brand.  Much of it could well be due to the influence of Zhang Jike and Wang Liqin and I used to shrug it off.  However, having spent considerable time with the Viscaria(so far 1.5 yrs) and Offensive Wood NCT(short of 3 yrs) with similar rubbers, I can sort of apprehend.  Part of that may have to do with the diverse impact locations on the blade face between forehand and backhand strokes.  The marks on my H3 and Hexer HD are far from reversed along the long axis.  They scatter over concentrated regions, which are known to exhibit different COR values.  When these locations are struck, various modes of vibration are excited at different amplitudes depending on the setup, grip, form etc., where the corresponding mode shapes are transferred to the hand.  In the event one's forehand or backhand stroke happens to hit the region that matches his game, the player could be under the impression that blade is more suited for that particular side.

Various geometry of modes of vibration depend more on blade shape which is generally similar (perhaps slightly on grain direction, but multi-ply is generally fairly uniform). These are harmonic frequencies and you can imagine a similar/simpler 1-D system as illustration. Again, if you going to parrot JRS, try to understand what he's saying first.

AgentHEX wrote: zeio wrote: Viscaria is almost unanimously worshipped as the blade with perhaps the most versatile backhand yet highly demanding forehand among EJs and non-EJs alike in China.  OTOH, Stiga blades are widely praised for their forehand prowess and feel.  Posts often pop up daily telling how bad or great it feels on either the forehand or backhand side whenever a person switches from one to the other brand.  Much of it could well be due to the influence of Zhang Jike and Wang Liqin and I used to shrug it off.  However, having spent considerable time with the Viscaria(so far 1.5 yrs) and Offensive Wood NCT(short of 3 yrs) with similar rubbers, I can sort of apprehend.  Part of that may have to do with the diverse impact locations on the blade face between forehand and backhand strokes.  The marks on my H3 and Hexer HD are far from reversed along the long axis.  They scatter over concentrated regions, which are known to exhibit different COR values.  When these locations are struck, various modes of vibration are excited at different amplitudes depending on the setup, grip, form etc., where the corresponding mode shapes are transferred to the hand.  In the event one's forehand or backhand stroke happens to hit the region that matches his game, the player could be under the impression that blade is more suited for that particular side. Various geometry of modes of vibration depend more on blade shape which is generally similar (perhaps slightly on grain direction, but multi-ply is generally fairly uniform). These are harmonic frequencies and you can imagine a similar/simpler 1-D system as illustration. Again, if you going to parrot JRS, try to understand what he's saying first.

And to think this comes from a guy who claimed JRS wrong but now cites his source for support, as well as stressed the conservation of momentum was a limiting factor of the swing velocity.  Why don't you try to understand how the physical world works first.

AgentHEX wrote: zeio wrote: And to think this comes from a guy who claimed JRS wrong but now cites his source for support, as well as stressed the conservation of momentum was a limiting factor of the swing velocity.  Why don't you try to understand how the physical world works first. JRS likely isn't wrong, the problem here is that you take little snippets of what he's said (and you don't understand) and overextend/overgeneralize. Comparison to Pnachtway is actually apt here. And yes, conservation of momentum is limiting to escape velocity. This is a system limit of the sort very difficult to violate and perhaps not obvious to those with poor physical intuition. Maybe you had trouble telling the difference between this and swing velocity as the quote suggests, I dunno. In any case, a reasonable counterexample was requested and I'm still waiting.

Your tone, behavior and language deteriorate just the way pnachtwey did once he gets refuted, runs out of steam and feels cornered.  Birds of a feather flock together.  You two make a great pair.

And no, swing velocity is not the same as separate velocity.  One is about how the body puts in the work to get the blade up to speed.  The other is how the blade transfers that momentum to the ball.  The two don't mix.  Maybe you had trouble swallowing my counterexamples.  The moment you assume perfectly elastic collision in the calculation of separate velocity, you're essentially ignoring the fact that the conservation of kinetic energy does not hold in any inelastic collisions, which is the kind of collision that takes place in the real world.  Talk about oversimplifying and overgeneralizing.

AgentHEX wrote: zeio wrote: AgentHEX wrote: zeio wrote: And to think this comes from a guy who claimed JRS wrong but now cites his source for support, as well as stressed the conservation of momentum was a limiting factor of the swing velocity.  Why don't you try to understand how the physical world works first. JRS likely isn't wrong, the problem here is that you take little snippets of what he's said (and you don't understand) and overextend/overgeneralize. Comparison to Pnachtway is actually apt here. And yes, conservation of momentum is limiting to escape velocity. This is a system limit of the sort very difficult to violate and perhaps not obvious to those with poor physical intuition. Maybe you had trouble telling the difference between this and swing velocity as the quote suggests, I dunno. In any case, a reasonable counterexample was requested and I'm still waiting. Your tone, behavior and language deteriorate just the way pnachtwey did once he gets refuted, runs out of steam and feels cornered.  Birds of a feather flock together.  You two make a great pair. I think someone in your position should be familiar with sort who resort to people-drama when their technical case fails. And no, swing velocity is not the same as separate velocity.  One is about how the body puts in the work to get the blade up to speed.  The other is how the blade transfers that momentum to the ball.  The two don't mix. The way they mix is succinctly approximated in collision model, a simple model which btw the study you linked use. Would you a link to your own post?  Maybe you had trouble swallowing my counterexamples. Please explain how your "counterexample" in any way correlates with the "counterexample" mentioned in the post you replied to. I've certainly asked before with no reply, so you can do so here instead of shitposting.   The moment you assume perfectly elastic collision in the calculation of separate velocity, you're essentially ignoring the fact that the conservation of kinetic energy does not hold in any inelastic collisions, which is the kind of collision that takes place in the real world.  Talk about oversimplifying and overgeneralizing. This is pretty funny considering my very first post on the topic was quite explicit about imperfect elasticity. Maybe we can do a study about reading from the beginning, or you can reply with something of relevant substance instead of making shit up.

I must admit you do have the better sense of drama.

That model uses measurement of the stiffness and deformation of the ball and rubber for subsequent calculations to predict the relationships between impact velocity, separate velocity and COR among different impact locations.  I have on hand another study with actual measurements that contradict with some of the predictions.

May I remind you of your using this and this and even someone else's comment to support your own claims?  No matter how I read the passages, they all point to elastic collision.

zeio wrote: Do people read through somebody else's comment in its entirety before jumping in to post theirs at all?  One study arrives at a negative conclusion and now I see why many threads quickly turn in the wrong direction with just an instance of false assumption. The aim of my post was originally to show NextLevel that Mickael was not the only one to think that way.  It has nothing to do with authoritativeness.  Besides, what do the income level and consumer price index have anything to do with how the users, be they real EJs or not, feel about the characteristics of a blade?

Sorry Zeio, I am guilty as charged.  I think I was reacting to the idea that because Chinese EJs might be saying something it necessarily makes it true because -- why?  -- they are Chinese?   The point about income is that the vast majority of Chinese players can't really EJ Butterfly products (way too expensive).  EJing requires a fair degree of disposable income, and authentic Butterfly products are not cheaper there then anywhere else.  EJing is just not something I noticed people doing much there.  Maybe that is changing.  I just learned that one of my friends in Wuhan who is a very good player (2500+ and not precisely an amateur player, it is complicated)  just bought a Porsche Boxter.  I have no idea how he managed this.  By the way, he only uses Stiga blades   

But now I am out of this thread forever since it has once again devolved to AgentHex informing one and all that they are fools, which he will do no matter what they write. 

I part by telling the OP is that the Maze and Viscaria are reasonably similar, both are great blades, and the only way to know which one you prefer is to hit with them, since the handle shapes could make a big difference.  Maybe somebody you know has one or the other.

zeio wrote: Fortunately I am not the only one who thinks drama often starts with a joke.  Your tone is harsh because it is the only weapon you have now to lure people and bring them down to your level.

Perhaps true, because my level is talking about technical things technically, as I've done above and elsewhere. What's your level since you evidently don't? If you want we can discuss what your rather clear subterfuge above deserved. Let's start with conflating your people-drama above with don't-get-the-joke drama.

Btw, I'm still waiting on an argument which has anything to do with the topic at hand.

Yet at the same time, ideal beliefs do not make a better technical argument.  You're harsh because someone like you give no attempt to understand the difference.

Again, how so? This is the 4th or so time I've asked for a simple case to be presented instead of laughable innuendo, and I'm still waiting.

Are you starting another drama, again?  You sound so opportunistic now after a little reminder.  How come you didn't choose to keep on using the effect of that decrease in your second link but decided instead to disregard that in the third link?

The third link is davidz's same argument that it's very unlikely weight per se matters given the basic physics. This is literally verified by your own links. You didn't address him, you didn't address me then, and we can expect this trend to continue.


Edited by AgentHEX - 08/12/2013 at 7:04pm

^ I fully expect hypocrites would sympathize with the trolling.

Baal wrote: But now I am out of this thread forever since it has once again devolved to AgentHex informing one and all that they are fools, which he will do no matter what they write.

Content rather does matter in any remotely seriously discussion. If you have examples otherwise, please share instead of using innuendo. This makes for a good demonstration that substance matters.


Edited by AgentHEX - 08/12/2013 at 6:48pm

By the way, does anyone know which are the closest to Viscaria and MMaze blades, respectively, made by Yinhe or maybe by others? We are short on cash here at this point...

Come on gentlemen this was not the intention of this thread their no need for this kind of conversation I was just asking what are the differences between MM and Viscaria. Best Regards to all forum members.

AgentHEX wrote: janekb wrote: Come on gentlemen this was not the intention of this thread their no need for this kind of conversation I was just asking what are the differences between MM and Viscaria. Best Regards to all forum members. Frankly for most people who have to ask, the differences are small enough to not matter. I would care more about handle shape feeling comfortable and any number of other more significant issues. As for head heavy, butterfly blades are known for smaller handles (the V for sure) which implies relatively heavier head. You can add some weight to bottom of handle if that's a problem.

Have you actually tried these blades in question ? Your answer can apply to anything. Btw, the Photino and iolite neo have good size handles and are not head heavy.

Janek,

The Donic Baum Esprit is worth a look, has much of the classic Btfly ALC feel, nice handle, good quality construction, and much less expensive.


Edited by Baal - 08/12/2013 at 9:13pm

It's important to generalize the problem to understand a group of similar issues rather than pick at them individually. Personally I don't like to exaggerate issues like slightly harder KVT blade face as if it where a key feature/negative that's going to make a critical diff. If some can play well with MM, they can play about same with V w/ minor adjustment.