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MMaze vs Viscaria

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2013 at 10:01pm
Sorry about misspelling your name.  Maybe I was thinking of the great composer Leo Janecek only missing some letters.   Actually the Professor on Giligan's Island was one of the reasons as a kid I wanted to be a scientist.  The guy seemed to know everything, could build a radar out of coconuts, was always calm in the face of disaster, and it figured he was getting some with Mary Anne on the side.  Guys like that are worth emulating.  Now that I am a scientist, sadly I have none of those attributes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2013 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

It's important to generalize the problem to understand a group of similar issues rather than pick at them individually. Personally I don't like to exaggerate issues like slightly harder KVT blade face as if it where a key feature/negative that's going to make a critical diff. If some can play well with MM, they can play about same with V w/ minor adjustment.


But you did not answer the OP's question , that's the point of this thread. Not how you can generalize a reply. Stay on track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2013 at 10:21pm
"It doesn't matter" can be a perfectly satisfactory reply in certain circumstances. For example whether any of two modern digital amps is better when not clipped, or staples or office depot is the best clipboard for TT.

Do folks realize that every year Butterfly or whoever use different batches of wood with nuances in terroir/aging/etc? Better start categorizing blades by select vintage, too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/12/2013 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by JacekGM JacekGM wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Janek,

The Donic Baum Esprit is worth a look, has much of the classic Btfly ALC feel, nice handle, good quality construction, and much less expensive.
Hello Baal, I assume you meant Jacek (it's me)Wink, that's quite all right, and thank you (and also jt99sf) very much for the recommendation. I thought a bit of Baum Espirit, we'll see...
Funny thing, a couple of weeks ago we dug up our old Gilligan Island DVDs, and now, as I hear the Professor speak, I take it with an even bigger grain of salt, and a bigger smile...

Actually, Baal was perfectly right.  The OP's handle is JanekB.

Regardlless, you are a great guy, JacekGM...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tabten5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 4:44am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by janekb janekb wrote:

Come on gentlemen this was not the intention of this thread their no need for this kind of conversation I was just asking what are the differences between MM and Viscaria. Best Regards to all forum members.


Frankly for most people who have to ask, the differences are small enough to not matter. I would care more about handle shape feeling comfortable and any number of other more significant issues.

As for head heavy, butterfly blades are known for smaller handles (the V for sure) which implies relatively heavier head. You can add some weight to bottom of handle if that's a problem.

What a strange thing to say. Both the cores in and the outer plies on the Maze and Viscaria are different to one another; they share the common ALC component, but otherwise are entirely distinct blades and (in my view) do not play much alike (as one would expect). If the comparison was between the family of BTY blades that share all plies (Viscaria, Spirit, TB ALC, etc), your point would be valid - handle shape and weight balance are the biggest differences. 

Your head heaviness point is also too simplistic to be correct. My TB ZLF, for example, has the most handle-oriented weight balance of all the blades that I own (given, I imagine, how thin the blade itself is.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote straits85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 6:08am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Janek,

The Donic Baum Esprit is worth a look, has much of the classic Btfly ALC feel, nice handle, good quality construction, and much less expensive.


I was very disappointed by the Baum Esprit.
Not so consistant as the TBS (or Viscaria).
I had a bad feeling with this blade: muffled sound, lack of dynamism...
I thought I played with a "dead" blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4ugustu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 8:26am
Originally posted by straits85 straits85 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Janek,

The Donic Baum Esprit is worth a look, has much of the classic Btfly ALC feel, nice handle, good quality construction, and much less expensive.


I was very disappointed by the Baum Esprit.
Not so consistant as the TBS (or Viscaria).
I had a bad feeling with this blade: muffled sound, lack of dynamism...
I thought I played with a "dead" blade.

+1, 

Balance terrible. Size of the head and handle are strangers.

I will test the blade Tibhar Marcos Freitas, will receive this week, it should be like the Bty Michael Maze.
I read in some reviews that it is faster than Micheal Maze, I think I'll like.


Edited by 4ugustu - 08/13/2013 at 8:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 11:13am
Baum Esprit a bit slower, so if you like faster blades I can see why you would say that.  I am curious to hear about the Freitas blade. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by janekb janekb wrote:

Come on gentlemen this was not the intention of this thread their no need for this kind of conversation I was just asking what are the differences between MM and Viscaria. Best Regards to all forum members.


Frankly for most people who have to ask, the differences are small enough to not matter. I would care more about handle shape feeling comfortable and any number of other more significant issues.

As for head heavy, butterfly blades are known for smaller handles (the V for sure) which implies relatively heavier head. You can add some weight to bottom of handle if that's a problem.

What a strange thing to say. Both the cores in and the outer plies on the Maze and Viscaria are different to one another; they share the common ALC component, but otherwise are entirely distinct blades and (in my view) do not play much alike (as one would expect). If the comparison was between the family of BTY blades that share all plies (Viscaria, Spirit, TB ALC, etc), your point would be valid - handle shape and weight balance are the biggest differences. 


Just because it's two diff woods doesn't mean their properties are meaningfully different. Most composite blade (esp so if near the surface) property are dominated by the very stiff composite material. Or I should probably say the epoxy / layering / curing properties which aren't advertised because it makes for too technical and less effective marketing than "Arylate" or "ZLC" (or Wood X vs. wood Y with no details of hardness/aging) even though the method of construct of composites can have greater effect than the material itself which is in a sense only a carrier for the glue/stiffener.

Quote
Your head heaviness point is also too simplistic to be correct. My TB ZLF, for example, has the most handle-oriented weight balance of all the blades that I own (given, I imagine, how thin the blade itself is.)


It's fundamentally correct and exceptions are uncommon. The weight of the handle is the only thing on one side of the balance, and most handles are made of similar density material. If you measure center of mass of that blade vs others, it should be in-line with general size of handle. Thinness of the blade is irrelevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 3:54pm
God help me that I agree with AgentHex, but I think he is right here about several things.  Handle makes a big difference in how a blade plays.  The one thing I would mention is that sometimes how hollow the handle is is invisible unless you want to destroy the blade, and that may be quite different.  It seems like the density of most Btfly handle materials in recent years is constant.  In the old days, handles on Cresail blades for example, and Mazunovs, added a ton of weight.  Shape matters a lot too, like I noted, the Maze handle has lots more edges than the Viscaria and I found it really annoying--almost painful sometimes.  Also I am pretty sure that curing and gluing and all sorts of other subtle stuff matters a lot.  I was pretty surprised how much I disliked the original ZJK blade compared to the Viscaria (and evidently ZJK does too), and yet they are supposedly the same classic ALC composition in terms of woods, thicknesses, and where the composite material is located.  So what else is left besides curing and gluing processes?  Of course, there could also be differences in the weave of the composite.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 4:14pm
Just to illustrate the point of this thread here, take a look at these often conflicting reviews.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47077&title=review-viscaria-vs-timo-boll-spirit-allezcho

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?1424-Michael-Maze-Blade

When such things happen, it's easy to conclude that differences are so small that people are  arguing over nothing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tabten5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


Just because it's two diff woods doesn't mean their properties are meaningfully different. Most composite blade (esp so if near the surface) property are dominated by the very stiff composite material. Or I should probably say the epoxy / layering / curing properties which aren't advertised because it makes for too technical and less effective marketing than "Arylate" or "ZLC" (or Wood X vs. wood Y with no details of hardness/aging) even though the method of construct of composites can have greater effect than the material itself which is in a sense only a carrier for the glue/stiffener. 

No. The different woods (1. koto v limba, 2. kiri v ayous) do make a substantial difference - the same difference in the pure-wood equivalents, but with something else in the mix. If you cannot feel the effect of the woods in a blade with composite material in it, then the obvious recommendation is that you should not use one: buy an all-wood blade (unless you will also say that the woods don't matter there either, in which case I have nothing left to recommend.)

Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:


Your head heaviness point is also too simplistic to be correct. My TB ZLF, for example, has the most handle-oriented weight balance of all the blades that I own (given, I imagine, how thin the blade itself is.)


Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

It's fundamentally correct and exceptions are uncommon. The weight of the handle is the only thing on one side of the balance, and most handles are made of similar density material. If you measure center of mass of that blade vs others, it should be in-line with general size of handle. Thinness of the blade is irrelevant.

Again, no. It is generally true to say that Butterfly handles are smaller than ones produced by European blade factories (notably, Stiga, Donic, Yasaka) - although there are exceptions to this. But, regardless, it does not lead to the logical conclusion that Butterfly blades are generally more head-heavy: you are assuming that all other factors, and especially head-size, are the same. Butterfly blades in the Timo Boll series, for example, are 157mm tall - the same size as the 'Small' head-size in the OSP range. That's also, for example, 3mm shorter than my Donic Waldner Legend Carbon. The Donic handle is undoubtedly bigger than the Timo Boll blade, but the 3mm extra height - once combined with 3mm worth of extra rubber on both sides - means that the blade is more head-heavy than the Timo Boll blade using the same rubbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jt99sf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Just to illustrate the point of this thread here, take a look at these often conflicting reviews.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47077&title=review-viscaria-vs-timo-boll-spirit-allezcho

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?1424-Michael-Maze-Blade

When such things happen, it's easy to conclude that differences are so small that people are  arguing over nothing.

So... you don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


Just because it's two diff woods doesn't mean their properties are meaningfully different. Most composite blade (esp so if near the surface) property are dominated by the very stiff composite material. Or I should probably say the epoxy / layering / curing properties which aren't advertised because it makes for too technical and less effective marketing than "Arylate" or "ZLC" (or Wood X vs. wood Y with no details of hardness/aging) even though the method of construct of composites can have greater effect than the material itself which is in a sense only a carrier for the glue/stiffener. 

No. The different woods (1. koto v limba, 2. kiri v ayous) do make a substantial difference - the same difference in the pure-wood equivalents, but with something else in the mix. If you cannot feel the effect of the woods in a blade with composite material in it, then the obvious recommendation is that you should not use one: buy an all-wood blade (unless you will also say that the woods don't matter there either, in which case I have nothing left to recommend.)

This doesn't make any sense. The entire point of using a composite blade is that effect of wood is diminished.

Quote
Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:


Your head heaviness point is also too simplistic to be correct. My TB ZLF, for example, has the most handle-oriented weight balance of all the blades that I own (given, I imagine, how thin the blade itself is.)


Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

It's fundamentally correct and exceptions are uncommon. The weight of the handle is the only thing on one side of the balance, and most handles are made of similar density material. If you measure center of mass of that blade vs others, it should be in-line with general size of handle. Thinness of the blade is irrelevant.

Again, no. It is generally true to say that Butterfly handles are smaller than ones produced by European blade factories (notably, Stiga, Donic, Yasaka) - although there are exceptions to this. But, regardless, it does not lead to the logical conclusion that Butterfly blades are generally more head-heavy: you are assuming that all other factors, and especially head-size, are the same. Butterfly blades in the Timo Boll series, for example, are 157mm tall - the same size as the 'Small' head-size in the OSP range. That's also, for example, 3mm shorter than my Donic Waldner Legend Carbon. The Donic handle is undoubtedly bigger than the Timo Boll blade, but the 3mm extra height - once combined with 3mm worth of extra rubber on both sides - means that the blade is more head-heavy than the Timo Boll blade using the same rubbers.


A 3mm diff shifts the center of mass of the head part by all of 1.5mm. The position of your hand as you play the point varies by more than this. Ie you can trivially change where to grip by far more.

Now compared this to the handle shape itself: an ST encourages the tightest grip/pivot near the neck (index/thumb), whereas FL does near the end (pinky), but your hand can change its pinch during the point. This is like 10cm diff, vs 1.5mm. I trust you can do the math.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by jt99sf jt99sf wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Just to illustrate the point of this thread here, take a look at these often conflicting reviews.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47077&title=review-viscaria-vs-timo-boll-spirit-allezcho

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?1424-Michael-Maze-Blade

When such things happen, it's easy to conclude that differences are so small that people are  arguing over nothing.

So... you don't know.


It generally takes more knowledge to know if something matters or not. For example, camera forums are full of clueless nubs going on about megapixels, but it takes some insight to know how and why resolution matters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tabten5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:



No. The different woods (1. koto v limba, 2. kiri v ayous) do make a substantial difference - the same difference in the pure-wood equivalents, but with something else in the mix. If you cannot feel the effect of the woods in a blade with composite material in it, then the obvious recommendation is that you should not use one: buy an all-wood blade (unless you will also say that the woods don't matter there either, in which case I have nothing left to recommend.)

This doesn't make any sense. The entire point of using a composite blade is that effect of wood is diminished.

So, then, a blade composed of koto-ALC-limba-kiri-limba-ALC-koto will feel indistinguishable from a blade made of oak-ALC-balsa-mahogany-balsa-ALC-oak? I can't tell if you are genuinely being serious at this point or simply trolling, or you're just a little simple.

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:

 
Again, no. It is generally true to say that Butterfly handles are smaller than ones produced by European blade factories (notably, Stiga, Donic, Yasaka) - although there are exceptions to this. But, regardless, it does not lead to the logical conclusion that Butterfly blades are generally more head-heavy: you are assuming that all other factors, and especially head-size, are the same. Butterfly blades in the Timo Boll series, for example, are 157mm tall - the same size as the 'Small' head-size in the OSP range. That's also, for example, 3mm shorter than my Donic Waldner Legend Carbon. The Donic handle is undoubtedly bigger than the Timo Boll blade, but the 3mm extra height - once combined with 3mm worth of extra rubber on both sides - means that the blade is more head-heavy than the Timo Boll blade using the same rubbers.


A 3mm diff shifts the center of mass of the head part by all of 1.5mm. The position of your hand as you play the point varies by more than this. Ie you can trivially change where to grip by far more.

Now compared this to the handle shape itself: an ST encourages the tightest grip/pivot near the neck (index/thumb), whereas FL does near the end (pinky), but your hand can change its pinch during the point. This is like 10cm diff, vs 1.5mm. I trust you can do the math.

This is just bizarre. You seem to be disagreeing with people simply for the sake of disagreement. Knock yourself out, I suppose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 7:27pm
Let's simplify it further so it can be easier understood:

Given a number between 1 and 10, the difference between 4 and 8 would be fairly significant. The difference between 4 and 4.1 much less so. This isn't to say there is no difference, but 0.1 is just much smaller than 4 as a matter of basic math. In this case, how a handle encourages a certain type of grip is simply much larger diff than at most 1.5mm.

Even minor things such as slope of the thumb grip or curvature of the part that goes into web of the hand matter more, and they can matter different depending on the nuances of the individual grip so it's pointless to discuss "balance" as EJ's typically do. I'm only pointing out generalities (eg size of handle) because nothing else meaningful can be said on the topic without a different approach.

As to materials specifically, please read the quite funny threads where EJs are conflicted over exactly which is which. If this were a clear diff, like say an apple vs orange, or even Fuji vs. Granny Smith, it wouldn't be nearly as comedic.


Edited by AgentHEX - 08/13/2013 at 7:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZachWei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 7:40pm
I think maze has a much softer feel than viscaria. Both excellent blades but I have always like maze a little better for its softer feel and added control
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/13/2013 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Sorry about misspelling your name.  Maybe I was thinking of the great composer Leo Janecek only missing some letters.   Actually the Professor on Giligan's Island was one of the reasons as a kid I wanted to be a scientist.  The guy seemed to know everything, could build a radar out of coconuts, was always calm in the face of disaster, and it figured he was getting some with Mary Anne on the side.  Guys like that are worth emulating.  Now that I am a scientist, sadly I have none of those attributes. 
Cool.. nice name game... Gilligan's Island rules for me these days, it is such a nice retreat from the realities after the 10+ hours in the lab/office. Well, Professor was turned into a zombie once after he refused to believe in voodoo... he was such a positive figure. 
Anyways, your blade comments are always spot on, thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 12:09am
Originally posted by janekb janekb wrote:

Come on gentlemen this was not the intention of this thread their no need for this kind of conversation I was just asking what are the differences between MM and Viscaria. Best Regards to all forum members.

I beg your pardon for the exchanges between me and AgentHEX which have undoubtedly overshadowed the ultimate intent of your thread.  Nevertheless, his/her arguments as a whole is a direct blow to the very existence of your thread and perhaps the entire Equipment section.  Therefore, please bear with me as I present another study which shows that a little change in weight and size is enough to cause a significant shift than what is expressed through numerical results once human factors come into the picture.

The experiment consists of two parts.  First they compared the velocity difference between 38mm and 40mm balls and as usual, the gap is "deemed" to be so small it hardly makes any difference.  Next they collected the impact locations on the racket between the two balls for 14 collegiate players, 8 of which were penholders and the rest shakehanders.  This time around they found a few trends considered significant enough to call for attentions.  The impact pattern for both grips are different.  For penholders, it rests above the long axis of the blade whereas for shakehanders it lies along the axis.  The patterns exhibit a unanimous shift from the tip towards the center of the blade face for 40mm balls, regardless of grip.  That shift was speculated to be a result of overcoming the increased torque in returning the "heavier" ball, which is "merely" .2g(~8% difference).

Now how do you make sense of this finding with your collision theory, Agent?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 12:29am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


[...Trash, off it goes to the recycle bin...]

The third link is davidz's same argument that it's very unlikely weight per se matters given the basic physics. This is literally verified by your own links. You didn't address him, you didn't address me then, and we can expect this trend to continue.


This one is worth some typing.  You see why you're so opportunistic?  'Cause you don't read that thread through at all!  Or, you only see what can be levered to your advantage in your argument.  davidz realized later his own argument wouldn't have applied in the real world, and that weight matters more than one thinks.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 12:36am
Is your insinuation that a 1-d model not even in the plane of the blade doesn't relate to measurement along the plane of the blade? Holy cow, stop the press and nobel prize committee.

It could just be the balls bounced differently in their setup and players not used to one vs other  take the ball safer, or it could just be some stylist/statistical idiosyncrasy. Just look at how scattered that plot is. The vague diff between pen and sh here should demonstrate that the data is hardly resolute. Even on the world stage, penhold rpb players all cover the BH with their fingers to different degree so must move the contact point despite playing at highest level.  There isn't remotely enough specific info here for anything conclusive.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 12:50am
Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


Just because it's two diff woods doesn't mean their properties are meaningfully different. Most composite blade (esp so if near the surface) property are dominated by the very stiff composite material. Or I should probably say the epoxy / layering / curing properties which aren't advertised because it makes for too technical and less effective marketing than "Arylate" or "ZLC" (or Wood X vs. wood Y with no details of hardness/aging) even though the method of construct of composites can have greater effect than the material itself which is in a sense only a carrier for the glue/stiffener. 

No. The different woods (1. koto v limba, 2. kiri v ayous) do make a substantial difference - the same difference in the pure-wood equivalents, but with something else in the mix. If you cannot feel the effect of the woods in a blade with composite material in it, then the obvious recommendation is that you should not use one: buy an all-wood blade (unless you will also say that the woods don't matter there either, in which case I have nothing left to recommend.)

Originally posted by tabten5 tabten5 wrote:


Your head heaviness point is also too simplistic to be correct. My TB ZLF, for example, has the most handle-oriented weight balance of all the blades that I own (given, I imagine, how thin the blade itself is.)


Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

It's fundamentally correct and exceptions are uncommon. The weight of the handle is the only thing on one side of the balance, and most handles are made of similar density material. If you measure center of mass of that blade vs others, it should be in-line with general size of handle. Thinness of the blade is irrelevant.

Again, no. It is generally true to say that Butterfly handles are smaller than ones produced by European blade factories (notably, Stiga, Donic, Yasaka) - although there are exceptions to this. But, regardless, it does not lead to the logical conclusion that Butterfly blades are generally more head-heavy: you are assuming that all other factors, and especially head-size, are the same. Butterfly blades in the Timo Boll series, for example, are 157mm tall - the same size as the 'Small' head-size in the OSP range. That's also, for example, 3mm shorter than my Donic Waldner Legend Carbon. The Donic handle is undoubtedly bigger than the Timo Boll blade, but the 3mm extra height - once combined with 3mm worth of extra rubber on both sides - means that the blade is more head-heavy than the Timo Boll blade using the same rubbers.

Agent can't grasp the fact that he is overgeneralizing his arguments while he criticizes other people for doing the same thing. 
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 1:14am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


[...Trash, off it goes to the recycle bin...]

The third link is davidz's same argument that it's very unlikely weight per se matters given the basic physics. This is literally verified by your own links. You didn't address him, you didn't address me then, and we can expect this trend to continue.


This one is worth some typing.  You see why you're so opportunistic?  'Cause you don't read that thread through at all!  Or, you only see what can be levered to your advantage in your argument.  davidz realized later his own argument wouldn't have applied in the real world, and that weight matters more than one thinks.


Really? "The big assumption to apply your chart (or result from my post) requires constant COR among heavy and light blades.  I do not believe this assumption holds."

So who's the strawman making this assumption? Maybe you should read that second post again, or any number of subsequent posts discerning weight per se and possible correlation to hardness. Not to mention this has nothing to do with the basic physical and math limit imposed by an asymptotic function vs at best linear one relative to weight.

On the subject of optimism, and the reason I mention poor physical intuition, it's unfortunate we have to take a look at the incredibly sloppy "proof" in the first post you linked me to. This is important to note because COR isn't independent of weight as a matter of math (esp give one M value is still significantly larger than other in the exact same way as for momentum), but because COR in general is a physical property of the object at hand and this property is not directly correlated to weight as matter of objective reality. The answer is literally as trivial as pointing to diff blades with same weight and diff speed as I did. IOW, you might've envisioned victory with this overwrought and significantly wrong anyway math derived argument. But in terms of physics it's at best "correct" by accident, the accident being you started with the correct conclusion that COR varies for blades in general and worked backwards to justify it from there. Thus, be careful in correctly identifying the Pnachtway's in this situation (I suggest deleting it just in case anyone else clued in should see it in the future).

Also, hilariously enough, after the post about 1-d standing waves above, I searched if this vaulted JRS had ever broached the subject. Low and behold. Observe the incl'ed graph. In the future it would be in your interest to read through someone with decent physical intuition on the matter first even if it's not me.

For sake of charity I didn't feel the need to drive this point home previously, but it really needs to be clearly said since it takes its toll on the conversation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 1:15am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Is your insinuation that a 1-d model not even in the plane of the blade doesn't relate to measurement along the plane of the blade? Holy cow, stop the press and nobel prize committee.

It could just be the balls bounced differently in their setup and players not used to one vs other  take the ball safer, or it could just be some stylist/statistical idiosyncrasy. Just look at how scattered that plot is. The vague diff between pen and sh here should demonstrate that the data is hardly resolute. Even on the world stage, penhold rpb players all cover the BH with their fingers to different degree so must move the contact point despite playing at highest level.  There isn't remotely enough specific info here for anything conclusive.

Dead giveaway!

1-d model?  Plane?  Are you stoned?  Come back to me when you're sober.  Do you even know what constitutes a "plane"?  May I help you look it up, Agent?

Quote In mathematics, a plane is a flat, two-dimensional surface. A plane is the two dimensional analogue of a point (zero-dimensions), a line (one-dimension) and a ...


Take the ball safer?  What's happened to this?  Out the window already?
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 1:22am
Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Is your insinuation that a 1-d model not even in the plane of the blade doesn't relate to measurement along the plane of the blade? Holy cow, stop the press and nobel prize committee.

It could just be the balls bounced differently in their setup and players not used to one vs other  take the ball safer, or it could just be some stylist/statistical idiosyncrasy. Just look at how scattered that plot is. The vague diff between pen and sh here should demonstrate that the data is hardly resolute. Even on the world stage, penhold rpb players all cover the BH with their fingers to different degree so must move the contact point despite playing at highest level.  There isn't remotely enough specific info here for anything conclusive.

Dead giveaway!

1-d model?  Plane?  Are you stoned?  Come back to me when you're sober.  Do you even know what constitutes a "plane"?  May I help you look it up, Agent?

Quote In mathematics, a plane is a flat, two-dimensional surface. A plane is the two dimensional analogue of a point (zero-dimensions), a line (one-dimension) and a ...


Take the ball safer?  What's happened to this?  Out the window already?


Either you're the sort to need math proof that direction of the 1d collision model is not in the plane of the blade given it's orthogonal, or you need to stop rushing those reading skills.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crackfst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 1:33am
People that say Bty MM and Viscaria arent similar are just wrong in my opinion(talking maily about woods here, not balance or weight), they have very slight differences, where as TB Spirit/ALC are almost identical to Viscaria. People who think that a 0.2-0.4mm top wood layer of two relatively similarly hard woods. we are not talking ebony vs balsa here guys, they are very similar, you could  feel some difference bouncing a ball on the naked blade. But we are talking about playing characteristics beneath 4mm of Rubber. 

And you think you could feel the difference of 1050 vs 900(just as an example) on the janka wood hardness scale of a very thin top layer of wood that is, again, beneath 4mm of Rubber? 

Sorry but thats just megalomaniac 


Edited by crackfst - 08/14/2013 at 1:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 1:42am
Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:

Originally posted by zeio zeio wrote:

Originally posted by AgentHEX AgentHEX wrote:


[...Trash, off it goes to the recycle bin...]

The third link is davidz's same argument that it's very unlikely weight per se matters given the basic physics. This is literally verified by your own links. You didn't address him, you didn't address me then, and we can expect this trend to continue.


This one is worth some typing.  You see why you're so opportunistic?  'Cause you don't read that thread through at all!  Or, you only see what can be levered to your advantage in your argument.  davidz realized later his own argument wouldn't have applied in the real world, and that weight matters more than one thinks.


Really? "The big assumption to apply your chart (or result from my post) requires constant COR among heavy and light blades.  I do not believe this assumption holds."

So who's the strawman making this assumption? Maybe you should read that second post again, or any number of subsequent posts discerning weight per se and possible correlation to hardness. Not to mention this has nothing to do with the basic physical and math limit imposed by an asymptotic function vs at best linear one relative to weight.

On the subject of optimism, and the reason I mention poor physical intuition, it's unfortunate we have to take a look at the incredibly sloppy "proof" in the first post you linked me to. This is important to note because COR isn't independent of weight as a matter of math (esp give one M value is still significantly larger than other in the exact same way as for momentum), but because COR in general is a physical property of the object at hand and this property is not directly correlated to weight as matter of objective reality. The answer is literally as trivial as pointing to diff blades with same weight and diff speed as I did. IOW, you might've envisioned victory with this overwrought and significantly wrong anyway math derived argument. But in terms of physics it's at best "correct" by accident, the accident being you started with the correct conclusion that COR varies for blades in general and worked backwards to justify it from there. Thus, be careful in correctly identifying the Pnachtway's in this situation (I suggest deleting it just in case anyone else clued in should see it in the future).

Also, hilariously enough, after the post about 1-d standing waves above, I searched if this vaulted JRS had ever broached the subject. Low and behold. Observe the incl'ed graph. In the future it would be in your interest to read through someone with decent physical intuition on the matter first even if it's not me.

For sake of charity I didn't feel the need to drive this point home previously, but it really needs to be clearly said since it takes its toll on the conversation.

More crap coming.  Another dead giveaway - "but because COR in general is a physical property of the object at hand"!  I see now why you don't get what you don't get.  Thank you!  'Cause your mind is tied down by spotty physics education hence you must work with "poor physical intuition."

Quote An object (singular) is often described as having a coefficient of restitution as if it were an intrinsic property without reference to a second object, in this case the definition is assumed to be with respect to collisions with a perfectly rigid and elastic object.
...
The COR is a property of a collision, not a single object. If a given object collides with two different objects, each collision would have its own COR.
...
Even though the equation does not reference mass, it is important to note that it still relates to momentum since the final velocities are dependent on mass.

Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 2:00am
Originally posted by crackfst crackfst wrote:

People that say Bty MM and Viscaria arent similar are just wrong in my opinion(talking maily about woods here, not balance or weight), they have very slight differences, where as TB Spirit/ALC are almost identical to Viscaria. People who think that a 0.2-0.4mm top wood layer of two relatively similarly hard woods. we are not talking ebony vs balsa here guys, they are very similar, you could  feel some difference bouncing a ball on the naked blade. But we are talking about playing characteristics beneath 4mm of Rubber. 

And you think you could feel the difference of 1050 vs 900(just as an example) on the janka wood hardness scale of a very thin top layer of wood that is, again, beneath 4mm of Rubber? 

Sorry but thats just megalomaniac 

I know of one such study that resonates with your stance.  Rubber can significantly alter the characteristics of a blade.  The difference is quite stark.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AgentHEX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/14/2013 at 2:09am
Again, don't take my word for it. The COR is just a math simplification of real world properties to neatly fit the equation. In our system only the varying properties of the blade is of interest vs. the constant ball. Naturally grasping these relationships is exactly what "physical intuition" means.

Let's be direct here. People who work among intelligent peers or in significant work are not characterized by trite pedantics (esp of the rhetorical sort) when there's a larger point at hand. If you had something relevant to say, you should do so instead.


Edited by AgentHEX - 08/14/2013 at 3:23am
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