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Using Reverse Penhold Backhand

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    Posted: 04/25/2006 at 3:12am
Ok, I've been practicing rpb and got the hang of it. However, I can only return balls that are long and looped.   If the ball is underspinned or low/close to net, I cannot return them with rpb.

Can someone please explain how I should return underspinned balls that are low to the table using rpb. I'd figure I should just hit the ball with more topspin than usual, but not sure if that is the correct way. Maybe change the angle of the paddle? I dunno...

Also, how can you return balls that low and close to the net using rpb? When I come to think of it, I don't think it is possible. If it is so low to the table and close to the net, a rpb return will send the ball straight to the net. I figured I would just use traditional backhand, but I want to use rpb as much as possible.

Thanks in advance, and if anyone knows anything, please just drop in some tips.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TSuBaSa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 3:50am
two ways to doing that...
1) dont use your wrist so much, open your racket angle and swing it down to up...(fast )
2) use your wrist to create some back-side spin not topspin...(slow)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mushin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 7:32am

Concentrate on looping upward not across... go from low to high so to speak. Try contact the ball at the top of the bounce (dont wait for it to drop too much).

 

Hope this helps... good luck with that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DatSuKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 9:56pm
Well if it's close to the net i assume itsbackspin so just push it back with a traditional backhand push...if there isnt any backspin then hit the ball flat with RPB after waiting for the ball a little after or before it reaches the highest point.

Underspin is difficult to handle with RPB but use your legs to push upwards when contacting and it should be fine.

so in conclusion
1) short balls near the net with backspin-push with tbh
2)long backspin balls- use legs to push up when contacting
3) hit the ball early for topspin/nospin middletable balls
4) long topspin/nospin- loop drive it into oblivion!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alink91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 10:10pm

Originally posted by DatSuKid DatSuKid wrote:

Well if it's close to the net i assume itsbackspin so just push it back with a traditional backhand push...if there isnt any backspin then hit the ball flat with RPB after waiting for the ball a little after or before it reaches the highest point.

Underspin is difficult to handle with RPB but use your legs to push upwards when contacting and it should be fine.

so in conclusion
1) short balls near the net with backspin-push with tbh
2)long backspin balls- use legs to push up when contacting
3) hit the ball early for topspin/nospin middletable balls
4) long topspin/nospin- loop drive it into oblivion!!!

1) Maybe at tournament but at a club, practice looping inside the table, club wins dont mean a whole lot unless you live in europe, but you need to practice taht shot, you also need to put some sidepsin on the ball while doing it too. Also practice the drop shot.

2) Maybe, for some people that doesnt work, like for me, I lose control from that. Aginst long backspin, the universal rules are to use your wrist and forarm. I would look at liu guozheng or ma long or kong linghui's bhs because its very easy to use and learn.

3) If you and I are imagining the same thing, thats one possibility.

4) NOOOOOOOO, BIG NO, dont loop drive against topspin, maybe no spin and esspecially not into oblivion. Instead, counterdrive or loop with consistency and get over the table. Your primary goal is to get the ball over the table, placement is secondary and power is last. Against topspin, if you cant master RPB yet, dont go for power.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DatSuKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 10:28pm
But my loop drives land pretty well against topspin

Heh guess I'm pretty good at RPB. Flips however are H-A-R-D!! Inside the table looping..well maybe i can sidespin it with tbh cuz its natural that way...rpb sidespin flip shouldnt be that hard, yet it's risky.

I did inside table rpb loops for awhile then i realized they could be attacked easily.

Oh yeah what exactly are dropshots? short backspin push balls when your opponent is away from the table b/c of the prevous loop?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wangerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 10:42pm
I was playing with my friend who underspinned every ball and I couldn't use rpb at all. The ball would go long but immediately after the bounce it would dip below the table and if I tried rpb, the ball would not go over.

Also, his underspinned balls were so low to the table that I had to use traditional backhand. Some balls would go underspinned very low/medium range and bounce twice on the table. Whats the point in using rpb to return those if you can do it much faster and better with traditional backhand?

I find myself using traditional backhand the most and rpb is only good for balls that bounce high and only once on the table. Other than that you can't block as efficiently or return low and close to the net balls.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DatSuKid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 10:52pm
that's what the flip is for....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wangerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/25/2006 at 11:00pm
oh, so you do a quick flip? I'm gonna go try that out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alink91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/26/2006 at 6:13pm

Originally posted by Wangerman Wangerman wrote:

I was playing with my friend who underspinned every ball and I couldn't use rpb at all. The ball would go long but immediately after the bounce it would dip below the table and if I tried rpb, the ball would not go over.

Also, his underspinned balls were so low to the table that I had to use traditional backhand. Some balls would go underspinned very low/medium range and bounce twice on the table. Whats the point in using rpb to return those if you can do it much faster and better with traditional backhand?

I find myself using traditional backhand the most and rpb is only good for balls that bounce high and only once on the table. Other than that you can't block as efficiently or return low and close to the net balls.

I think you're missing your RPB loops because you havent used it enough and dont really have a feel for it yet. All it takes is practice. If the ball bounces twice on the table, its a prefect time to try the shot I was talking about. Its a loop, not a flip. Although in a tournament match you shouldnt use it too often, it is still a good shot that should be used when you dont want to push or use the drop shot.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 4:37am

Hi, I have been playing penhold for over 6 years without much success due to my weak backhand. I use inverted rubber on my forehand, and I am learning RBP to reinforce my backhand.

Is is a good idea to use short-pips for my RBP? I do this because I want to confuse my opponents with different spins.  Does anybody not using inverted   for his/her RBP here, and reasons for that?  Thanks in advance. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote khvn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 12:55pm

Short, back spin ball can be dealt with via Ma Lin side-winder RPB. If you go along with the back spin by moving your blade upward, most likely you'll go into the net (under compensated: ball out-spins your hand speed) or over the table (over compensated: adding to much spin to the ball). Ma's side spin RPB counters the back spin by brushing the ball diagonally on the side. That way, Ma yanks the ball from it current spinning axis, grab a hold and thus the control of the ball and send it right back to his op. The key here is to avoid the back-spin axis and create a new spin-axis of your own. This's one tough shot.

Another way is to RPB flip the ball. Blade angle, wrist action and arm movement all come into play at once here. Probably the toughest RPB shot.

 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 3:10pm
Ma Lin's side-winder does work against backspin and it's a bit easier than the rpb flip where it requires wrist action rotation, which wang hao is specialized in.  Ma Lin's side-winder is like throwing the spinned ball back to the opponent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 3:14pm
it's also good to push short and make sure you flip long to the corner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pimpmyracket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by Wangerman Wangerman wrote:

I want to use rpb as much as possible.


Don't try to use RPB in all situations. It has a very limited usefulness. If you watch Li Ching, I only recall seeing him use RPB for deep loops, and was successful with it. And he's not even a conservative player; in Shanghai at the 2005 Worlds, in the middle of a rally he even switched the racket to his other hand and tried to loop, albeit unsuccessfully.

If the pros don't use it for all their backhand strokes, it probably means it's not beneficial to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pimpmyracket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by tt12 tt12 wrote:


Is is a good idea to use short-pips for my RBP? I do this because I want to confuse my opponents with different spins. Does anybody not using inverted   for his/her RBP here, and reasons for that? Thanks in advance.



The biggest advantage from RPB is the ability to loop. If you go with pips, you're effectively removing the loop from your RPB game. Unless you plan only to chop and smack with your backhand, get inverted rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by pimpmyracket pimpmyracket wrote:

Originally posted by tt12 tt12 wrote:


Is is a good idea to use short-pips for my RBP? I do this because I want to confuse my opponents with different spins. Does anybody not using inverted   for his/her RBP here, and reasons for that? Thanks in advance.



The biggest advantage from RPB is the ability to loop. If you go with pips, you're effectively removing the loop from your RPB game. Unless you plan only to chop and smack with your backhand, get inverted rubber.

Feel free to use pips because is not a bad thing and yes you CAN use pips with rpb.  Maybe he doesn't want to loop and prefers more of block/push/smash bh.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/16/2006 at 11:40pm

Thanks for your response. I can loop not too badly with my innverted  forehand. I have been experimenting my short-pip BH. Seems that I can generate some topspin (not as good as the inverted rubber).  I am still justifying the advantages/disadvantages of this setup.  At this point, my top priority is to hit the ball onto the other side of the table.  Seems to me that short-pip has more control. Is it true?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2006 at 12:30am
it seems like you are already developing a feel for the ball with short pips or maybe the rubber has something to do with it.  good thing about rpb is that is also GREAT for hitting and not just looping so keep on working at it.  as you become more used to this setup, start thinking about what you can do with it and WHEN you should be using it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2006 at 12:32am

I've seen some penholders play with the same setup as you and they simply kill the ball with great placement.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2006 at 10:46pm

Yes, I want to hear people's opinions and experience. I can replace the pips-out with an inverted anytime. I think advantages using a pips-out RPB:

1.Some varieity in spins. Make it more confusing to my oppnents.

2.Hitting is more effective than looping (harder for the opponent to return). Note that many shake-handers use pips-out for BH. Correct me if I am wrong, I dont' find many top shake-handers use same kind of rubbers on both sides. 

3.I twiddle my racket a lot. I think pips-out rubber makes it easier to receive services, and I can make flips returns which can be done only with pips-out.

For disadvantages:

1.I misss that backhand loop. But, I can still simulate a top-spin loop with may pips-out in case the ball is down-spined out to to backhand. 

2.I have been playing pips-in for over 6 years, So the pips-out may be a little challenge for me.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote O! Ju Qian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2006 at 1:53am
dude if you can twiddle then you are getting the hang of it.  i am also trying to learn how to twiddle with penhold because sometimes i want to serve with other side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2006 at 2:56am

It took me about a week' s practice (including practice when Iwatch TV at night)  to make me feel confident to twiddle my racket in a game. I twiddle cus I use LP on the other side. An expert in my club showed me how to twiddle. First, start with ur index finger, then ur thumb and middle finger. Hint: racket should face vertical to the floor, ur fingers should loose up. N.B. don't worry the racket will fall. I never lost one point because I dropped my racket for the two years I have been doing this. But, I now find that LP only helps me to beat low level players. However, I hope RBP could save my poor backhand. At least, the shakehanders will think twice before sending all balls on my left court if I can RPB.

I am using an used Japanese short pips rubber given by my friend in the club. Which rubber (not too expensive) could be a good short pips fpr RPB?        

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaisBane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2006 at 9:07pm
If you like short-pips on your rpb but you miss the ability to loop, perhaps you should try 802-40. It's a very fast short-pip that is very spinny and loops nicely, it also speed glues well. From what I hear, 802-40 with dawei cannon sponge is a very nice combo. You should contact cole_ely about it. Joola Tango Ultra is a very spinny pip as well with alot of control, but it's over twice as much as 802-40 and not quite as fast.

As for how to RPB against backspin, the Ma Lin sidewinder is a good way but you'll also need an option for hitting down-the-line. Another alternative is the low-arc topspin putaway. For this one you need to center the ball in front of yourself, drop your weight and your paddle very low, and then brush the back of the ball with an almost vertical paddle face. Like all rpb shots, your elbow needs to be infront of your paddle at the start of your stroke, and you need to extend the forearm outwards and to the side once contact with the ball is made. The finish only needs to be about shoulder height, and the face of the paddle should not close. If you do it right, then you should produce a heavily topspinned ball that travels in a low arc over the net and seemingly jumps forward instead of bouncing upwards at your opponent. You can hit this shot both slowly and quickly, and it works well both ways because the low bounce and heavy topspin makes the ball difficult to react to and reach. This is mainly for long serves, chops, pushes. When the ball is short and over the table, either use the sidewinder or flip.

The rpb flip is the same as the shakehands bh flip, only more awkward. I find that if you chop downwards agressively before flipping it allows you to flip with much more speed and spin. The timing for this is difficult at first, but with practice it should get easier. I've gotten to the point with my rpb flip that I can fake a push with the tbh and then flip (no pun intended) the racket over to hit a flip right before contact.

There is also an rpb serve that you can use instead of twiddling your paddle. You mainly hit underspin and nospin with it, and it works well if your rpb rubber is very different from your forehand. The serve is essentially the same as the middle push (where you keep the racket facing forward and push forward instead of chopping from the fh or bh side) except you flip the paddle upsidedown and unhook the thumb so that you can flatten the face of the rubber (otherwise it will be angled towards your body and you'll hit the serve off the table). You have to toss the serve back and lift your elbow high so that you can contact the ball as the paddle is moving downwards. After you contact the ball you can hook the thumb again and finish with the paddle in the same position as any other penhold serve. I use a pendulum serve, so I finish this serve with a quick wrist flick outwards as if I was doing a reverse-sidespin serve. This serve is best used sparingly as there are only two main variations and the experience eye can spot it easier than other penhold serves. The initial surprise factor is high, though, so it's great on set points and other big moments. This is one of the hardest serves, so practice it alot before using it in a tournament. Both Yan Sen and Wang Hao use this serve very effectively, and many newer chinese instructional videos include it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/20/2006 at 11:09pm
Jaiabane, u r great,thanks.
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