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The power drive rsm & Ma lin's special. |
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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Posted: 11/03/2013 at 11:00pm |
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The power drive rsm & Ma lin's special.Edited by hunkeelin - 04/22/2018 at 2:34pm |
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IanMcg
Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2011 Location: Somehere Status: Offline Points: 1151 |
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IMO, timing is key.
One thing that RSM and young Ma Lin had was speed glue. And the pros are on a completely different level of play. Trying to copy what they do is like trying to copy NASAs space shuttles with a model rocket. |
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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I see, in short I am not at the level to use that technique. )'=
But I'm just asking to copy "one" move, not everything. Edited by hunkeelin - 11/03/2013 at 11:26pm |
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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You need speed, and super strong legs with a lot of torso rotation and core strength. Practice and conditioning. It helps to play penhold.
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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Keep in mind, they play that shot just the same without going off balance a lot more frequently. I know it looks cool, but going off balance is suicide. They only do it when they absolutely have to. They are done if the ball lands on the table after their shot.
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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I'm trying to practice that shot so I can have a lethal weapon on my far left bh side. I don't want to push or lob with my traditional backhand.
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1018 |
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Im in the bus. The baseball pitch can be used as an analogy to illustrate what the hunk is asking. Very interesting question.
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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^ LOL
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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This is the concept. Get used to doing it normally first (not as dramatic as what RSM did at 1:16, then you'll eventually be able to do some crucial saves when you're used to it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z6AyEm8G0s Edited by davidwhang - 11/04/2013 at 2:53pm |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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Why not learn RPB? |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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I don't think there is any big secret to doing that stroke assuming you have the ability to get into position in the first place. The only difference between that and the normal one is that because you moving so fast laterally it is easier to let the momentum of the stroke carry you around instead of trying to stop and recover facing your opponent. XX does it a fair amount but loses most of the points as players just block it back. The reason you don't see a tutorial on it is because it's probably not something that they explicitly train.
It is more of a penhold thing. I have never seen a SH player do it. I have done it spontaneously when playing a match it's not really a big deal however there is allot of shock and awe.
If you wanted to train it directly I would just start with Ma Lin's example below. It's the same footwork and stroke. The only thing to add is pivoting around on the left foot after the step out. I think you should just practice it at a normal pace to get the feel of the spin then gradually increase the speed. |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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This! My RPB BH vs medium high balls is as fast and consistent as my FH, no need to 360.
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Xiom Vega 7pro FH/BH |
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rick_ys_ho
Super Member Joined: 08/18/2009 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 344 |
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This stroke is more about the footwork than the swing itself. You need to make enough room to make the stroke, which is the hardest part. Once you are the in the RIGHT position, the swing to finish the stroke is relatively simple. Because you have enough space at far left of the table, you can "throw" your body to maximize the power. It becomes a lethal weapon for PH players. Usually RPB can't generate that much of power.
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sandiway
Gold Member Joined: 04/15/2010 Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Penholders need both; being able to step aside quickly and also being able to attack with topspin with the backhand. You can't always jump out of the way quick enough, and if you cheat a bit, i.e. start early, your opponent will simply redirect the ball down the line to your forehand for an uncontested easy point. Shakehand players have a backhand loop so don't get caught out as often as penholders here simply because they don't commit to that step-aside so often. The RPB loop is usually not strong enough to win a point outright, so the nuclear option of stepping aside and ripping a forehand loop is a useful weapon to have - keeps the pressure on the other guy not to make a weak push to the penholder's backhand. |
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zeio
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Read the article 吳敬平教練談正手拉球 in which Wu Jingping talks about Ma Lin's pirouettesque loopkill in detail.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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??? When was the last time you saw Wang Hao play? There was commentary by LGL during the trials for the Olympics in which he says that WH has one of the best overall BH in the world. While there are weaknesses, mainly blocking, I would say that a player can spin the ball better with RPB. WH wins almost as many points wit his BH as he does with his FH. I would attribute a large part of XX's recent results to the improvement of his RPB and not running around his BH trying to hit the FH as much like he used too. That transition has been in the works for the last 2-3 years. Look at the super league match with ZJK, he hits some serious BH loops in that match, not to mention ripping ML. He used to play in the old school penhold way but that era is over. LGL realized that more than a decade ago. If you don't have a BH you can attack with your pretty much done, at least at the highest levels. look at the Skachkov/ Ma Lin match. Even if he was younger he would have struggled. Even RSM says his style is done. Another PH player that plays more like WH is Wu Jiaji. This is how PH is going to be played at the highest levels if it survives. Here he is in the super league. |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Online Points: 1018 |
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When I have time in the rally I do it for fun generally when I do not have to move; on a ball that comes back weak and a bit high from a slow topspin attack for example.
It's a kill shot: if it comes back...too bad: I won't have time to recover, especially if the opponent is closer to the table. It really is a whole body shot with not much energy spent on moving the arm in percentage of the total energy invested into the stroke. To train for the stroke, from a body move that is very similar to disc throwing -legs, hips, torso- the shoulder is thrown away and the arm follows as an almost dead limb and contact happens with a tighter grip. When the timing is right for that then more arm speed is added; to learn the shot it's important to focus more on the "dancing move" preceding the arm swing than on the arm swing itself. I really enjoy the shot as being slightly overweight, it gives me some serious emotional reward when it lands and does not come back. On the robot I like to do it every other shot after a placed block on the same ball coming every 1.5s. Be careful with the shot: it is very dangerous for the deltoids and pulling them means a couple months out of the game. |
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sandiway
Gold Member Joined: 04/15/2010 Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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I agree with you. Xu Xin does step aside much less now and uses his RPB more and more. As a result his percentage is higher. However, Wang Hao's backhand is without parallel and uniquely strong among penholders. He can go toe to toe with most shake handers on backhand to backhand rallies except perhaps ZJK and Ovtcharov. Most penholders with RPB aren't really strong on that backhand. At least, the forehand is way stronger. So the forehand nuclear option is a good one to punish weak pushes. Wu JJ is at a much lower level than Xu Xin or Wang Hao. |
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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There is only one WH in the world, and there is a reason why. RBH is extremely difficult to execute consistently. I am not a pro, therefore I don't have the time to hon my underdeveloped RBH.
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Krantz
Super Member Joined: 05/14/2009 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 276 |
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In my experience RPB isn't any more difficult that shakehanders BH. The only potential problem I see is in the case of already developed traditional penhold players in their thirties, with like 15+ years of experience of playing forehand only - for whom the whole idea of backhand is something new. They have to deal with fact that their RPB may never reach full potential, but that is only because they started developing it way too late - but exactly the same thing would happen if a shakehand player would play only forehand and completely ignored backhand side for 15 years. There are many shakehand players whose BH isn't well developed as well.
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sandiway
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I think this is essentially correct. At least, Chinese professional coaches tell me so. Wang Hao never uses the traditional backhand. He was probably taught right from the start with RPB in mind. On the other hand, Ma Lin seems to favor the traditional penhold when under pressure. Sandiway
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ZApenholder
Premier Member Joined: 03/04/2012 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4804 |
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Yes, Wang Hao does use the traditional backhand, I have seen it before |
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ZApenholder
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This is a common training for kids in China. You must push yourself to the left, make sure there is enough acceration from the right feet to the left feet. The move left you push yourself, the more space you are making to contact the ball. To practice, get a feeder to feed into your body (stand on the centre of the table and before the ball arrives to you, it is going to hit your body). Then one motion - shift body to left feet and swing a forehand shot - all in 1 motion Edited by ZApenholder - 11/05/2013 at 6:39am |
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ZApenholder
Premier Member Joined: 03/04/2012 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4804 |
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I found a training clip I did with my students.
Go to around 2:10 mins https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=143052249191339 |
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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He does In practice sometimes but I have never seen him do it in a match.
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hunkeelin
Silver Member Joined: 07/22/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 865 |
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I believe the move is used while you are going left(x axis), forward(y axis) and down(z axis).
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raphyelrosby
Super Member Joined: 03/22/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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+1 I get do do that shot every now and again, and I actually always look back thinking (I hope it doesn't get returned). I have seen Xu Xin on many occasions eat that when it gets returned. One thing that makes that shot more effective and difficult to return is what RSM does which a a little bit of inside out spin which takes it away from the table rather than back towards the table.
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Xiom Hayabusa ZX, Sigma II pro on FH, Vega Elite BH.
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raphyelrosby
Super Member Joined: 03/22/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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You are correct, but I would add, like Ma Lin showed, learn it with control before going all out. It is a much more useful shot when you can recover.
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Xiom Hayabusa ZX, Sigma II pro on FH, Vega Elite BH.
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raphyelrosby
Super Member Joined: 03/22/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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There is only one Wang Hao, but there are plenty of players who utilize the RPB consistently. I don't think it is a requirement to use it as much as WH to be a good player. At my last tournament, my rating went up by 160 pts, because I had the RPB to open attacks on my BH side. I usually will either fast block and turn to my forehand or go directly to forehand after, but the point is it allows me to initiate a high quality attach from my BH, which I could not do before. I used to rely on pushing and a touch game to try and force a long return that I could forehand, but now I just open with my BH and then attach with my FH which works extremely well.
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Xiom Hayabusa ZX, Sigma II pro on FH, Vega Elite BH.
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Whang
Silver Member Joined: 12/20/2012 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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If you have time to hone this loop kill, then you should have time to hone your RPB It's just a matter of choosing to You see, the biggest downfall to this kind of loopkill is that it is blockable, and that's the end of it. There is very minimal recovery for you when you execute that shot. It looks cool and effective, but watch enough Ma Lin, Xu Xin, and Wang Hao matches and you'll realize that they have been easily blocked a number of times already. Learning RPB on the otherhand will get you farther down the road To prove my point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOndnQPyF6A&feature=player_detailpage#t=100 And I don't agree with what you said that RPB isn't strong enough to make a kill. 1. You're a penholder, point is, it's mainly your forehand that's supposed to make the kill. You shouldn't relly on RPB to make the kill (but if it does, then good!). Perhaps set up the play for the FH kill or keep the ball in play at the very least. 2. RPBs can actually kill. Executed correctly, they sometimes even go faster and spinier than a regular FH return. Specially so if they aren't expecting an RPB return since you are, after all, a penholder. Edited by davidwhang - 11/07/2013 at 1:06pm |
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Blade: Yasaka Gatien Extra (Penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane 3 Neo (Black - 2.15mm - 41 deg) BH: 729 Focus III Snipe (Red - 2.10mm - 42 deg) Weight: 168.57g |
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