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Timothy Wang losing to a 2300

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 9:10am
Hmmm...I played with Shuja at the NA Teams many years ago and he played inverted both sides. It's hard to believe he now plays with LPs on his BH, and is that SPs he's playing with on his FH? He was a solid 2200 - 2250 player when I played with him and he used inverted on both sides. It's hard to believe he could change his game so dramatically and still play at such a high level.
I also checked out the match with Oliver and he must have lost almost 100 lbs! He really slimmed down. Kudos to Oliver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 9:18am
Originally posted by Tommy16 Tommy16 wrote:

The cap between 2300 and 2600 isnt´huge if you are thinking about player that isn´t comfortable with lp blocking style.


I think the actual outcome of this match is the proof of that!  I am still amazed though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 9:26am
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Hmmm...I played with Shuja at the NA Teams many years ago and he played inverted both sides. It's hard to believe he now plays with LPs on his BH, and is that SPs he's playing with on his FH? He was a solid 2200 - 2250 player when I played with him and he used inverted on both sides. It's hard to believe he could change his game so dramatically and still play at such a high level.
I also checked out the match with Oliver and he must have lost almost 100 lbs! He really slimmed down. Kudos to Oliver.

Shujar won the match.  Yes, it's SP on the forehand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Originally posted by Tommy16 Tommy16 wrote:

The cap between 2300 and 2600 isnt´huge if you are thinking about player that isn´t comfortable with lp blocking style.


I think the actual outcome of this match is the proof of that!  I am still amazed though.

I really believe that if video of this match was to show up, the strategy that Tim employed would be taken apart.   The other possibility of course is that Shujar has improved recently and is really not 2300... but his game reminds me of what I have heard about Bill Sharpe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 9:38am
Originally posted by nikk64 nikk64 wrote:

Against Steven Wang 2502- 03.2013Намигване

Yeah - when I saw that, I wondered...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 10:11am
besides the awkwardness of the pips the guy has a strange fh.
his fh loop is really a smash that's why nobody returns his loops, because people are used to playing against loopers who give arc and spin to the ball.
he only loops with spin on opening loops, after that it's a half loop half smash (actually 90% smash 10% loop)


Edited by puppy412 - 12/10/2013 at 10:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 10:37am
Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

it's not a question of style when its a 2600+ player losing to a 2300 player. The 2600 player clearly has the tools necessary to win, but instead fails to come up with a suitable strategy. he could have easily served dead balls the entire time and finished the next ball. i'm surprised after this many years of training/matches he hasn't figured this out. it's not like he's out of practice. he was just in europe playing ittf events and training full time.


1. There are pips and then there are pips. There is a huge variety of long pips (and short ones for that matter) which are so frigging different you wouldn't believe it. Not to mention that difference in sponge thickness often turns same (or almost same) LPs into a completely different animal.

I have played against many varieties of LPs (and sponges) and I am still often surprised when I play vs some new guy with LPs I never heard of and they play like nothing I ever encountered before.

2. Having said that, naturally you would expect a 2600-level player (young and smart, too) to be able to adjust quickly. So my guess - Tim was having a bad day in terms of focus. It happens like this - you don't sleep enough two days in a row, or you have an indigestion, or you are tired from previous matches, then you start playing a guy with some really weird setup and of course you lose the first set because his returns are very unusual. If at that point you fail to re-evaluate, properly decide on the strategy and be honest with yourself then you are screwed - one of the worst mistakes you can make in that situation is to tell yourself "I am so much better than this guy, I will just hit harder, spin faster, run more etc and I am golden". And then three minutes later - oops, you lost the second set. And now, when you are out of focus and you realize that you are embarrassingly close to a defeat from a 2300-rated guy with junky rubbers, it comes to your mental toughness and to the strength of your strategical thinking. If you make a mistake at that point deciding on your strategy for the next set... well then you are done. It can happen to anyone really.

Remember that match that Tim had recently at a ProTour vs some guy from Belarus? He was leading 3-0 and smth like 9-7, 10-8 in the fourth... the fact that Belarussian guy was able to readjust and Tim couldn't do it (it being re-evaluate, re-adjust, execute new strategy) during the whole 4 following sets (and that's a lot of time!)... should tell him that he needs to work on this stuff even more than on looping and hitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KleinesDickesAilton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 11:02am
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

1. There are pips and then there are pips. There is a huge variety of long pips (and short ones for that matter) which are so frigging different you wouldn't believe it. Not to mention that difference in sponge thickness often turns same (or almost same) LPs into a completely different animal.
 
So true! So many varieties, so hard to Play.
 
Would you agree that some Players do have an advantage just because out of the many equipment-variations they chose a setup that is exotic and therefore hard for the opponent to adjust to? (Don't get me wrong here, I admire players who master their equipment, especially if it's an uncommon rubber/blade)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 11:08am
seems to me this mistake that people make looping versus LPs is that they launch full power/max spin, - and what you get is super spin reversal....the most basic concept - yet if you watch the steven wang match - he opens up spinny, and pushes the next ball into the net - basically his own spin

to play effectively, you should incorporate a lower spin game, as that will lessen the complications for yourself (unbelievable chop coming back off a loop created by you), and will also give more problems to the LP player, as there is less spin to use.  easier said than done

as somebody before mentioned - LPs do not create spin - they can only reverse it

i think one of the best examples i had ever seen playing vs an accomplished pushblocker was misha k vs peter c.  except the difference is peter c does not attack, so, you can wait him out.  playing against shuja is a totally different animal as his fh smash is quite lethal

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoFootwork Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

it's not a question of style when its a 2600+ player losing to a 2300 player. The 2600 player clearly has the tools necessary to win, but instead fails to come up with a suitable strategy. he could have easily served dead balls the entire time and finished the next ball. i'm surprised after this many years of training/matches he hasn't figured this out. it's not like he's out of practice. he was just in europe playing ittf events and training full time.


1. There are pips and then there are pips. There is a huge variety of long pips (and short ones for that matter) which are so frigging different you wouldn't believe it. Not to mention that difference in sponge thickness often turns same (or almost same) LPs into a completely different animal.

I have played against many varieties of LPs (and sponges) and I am still often surprised when I play vs some new guy with LPs I never heard of and they play like nothing I ever encountered before.

2. Having said that, naturally you would expect a 2600-level player (young and smart, too) to be able to adjust quickly. So my guess - Tim was having a bad day in terms of focus. It happens like this - you don't sleep enough two days in a row, or you have an indigestion, or you are tired from previous matches, then you start playing a guy with some really weird setup and of course you lose the first set because his returns are very unusual. If at that point you fail to re-evaluate, properly decide on the strategy and be honest with yourself then you are screwed - one of the worst mistakes you can make in that situation is to tell yourself "I am so much better than this guy, I will just hit harder, spin faster, run more etc and I am golden". And then three minutes later - oops, you lost the second set. And now, when you are out of focus and you realize that you are embarrassingly close to a defeat from a 2300-rated guy with junky rubbers, it comes to your mental toughness and to the strength of your strategical thinking. If you make a mistake at that point deciding on your strategy for the next set... well then you are done. It can happen to anyone really.

Remember that match that Tim had recently at a ProTour vs some guy from Belarus? He was leading 3-0 and smth like 9-7, 10-8 in the fourth... the fact that Belarussian guy was able to readjust and Tim couldn't do it (it being re-evaluate, re-adjust, execute new strategy) during the whole 4 following sets (and that's a lot of time!)... should tell him that he needs to work on this stuff even more than on looping and hitting.
Regardless of the reasons that Tim lost, there really is a huge difference between a 2300 and a 2600.  It's a great win by Shuja and frankly Tim has no reason to lose to such an opponent.

I see Adam Hugh routinely destroy 2300 players by playing any style he wants to; looping thru them, blocking them down, lobbing them down, chopping them down with a LP racket, using borrowed equipment, whatever.  The skill set (or the toolbox) that a 2600 has is far better than a 2300 in each area.  May be Tim's technical fundamentals are not quite as sound as they need to be for his level?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AcudaDave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:14pm
Completely agree NoFootwork. I'm almost 2200 and I would say a 2600 player losing to a 2300 player is more of an upset than me losing to a 1900 player or high 1800 player because at that high level his overall game is so much better than a 2300 player he really shouldn't lose. It happens though and maybe he just took the match too lightly until it was too late. Hopefully he won't let something like that happen again, and if he ever does play Shuja in a tournament again...it will be a smackdown.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonathanVN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by AcudaDave AcudaDave wrote:

Completely agree NoFootwork. I'm almost 2200 and I would say a 2600 player losing to a 2300 player is more of an upset than me losing to a 1900 player or high 1800 player because at that high level his overall game is so much better than a 2300 player he really shouldn't lose. It happens though and maybe he just took the match too lightly until it was too late. Hopefully he won't let something like that happen again, and if he ever does play Shuja in a tournament again...it will be a smackdown.

I agree. I sincerely doubt that Tim will lose like that again, and as others have mentioned, he could have just had a bad night of sleep or indigestion the night before. I know that when I play a tournament, a good night's rest and proper nutrition is a necessity for achieving good results. Plus, a 2300 player has developed many incredible skills. No matter what level you play at (except 2750+), you really have to be on your game to beat them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:44pm
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Edited by puppy412 - 12/10/2013 at 1:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:46pm
Why does the ITTF approve of so many different types of pips? Timothy lost for several reasons that's understandable but why is the pip universe so out of control? I say it's time for review by the ITTF to make better sense of it all. Pips players certainly have a place in our sport but somebody needs to clean up the play room.

Edited by frogger - 12/10/2013 at 1:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by frogger frogger wrote:

Why does the ITTF approve of so many different types of pips?
And since you are asking, why does the ITTF approve of so many inverted rubbers? They need to clean that up! These days the new tensors generate so much spin it's not fair to the defender or pips player.
 
To really answer your question, the ITTF has certain specifications for long pips and as long as a new rubber meets those specs it wil be approved. The same is true for inverted.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bogeyhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 1:57pm
Agree.
No pips should be banned.

Edited by bogeyhunter - 12/10/2013 at 1:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 2:05pm
So where was Tim's coach during the match?  He should be fired!!!  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 2:23pm
I actually had lost 74 lbs but gained a few back since.. Went from 253 lbs to 179 (about 181 lbs in the video against Shuja).. Now I'm back to close to 200 lbs...
 
BTW, Shuja is a Psychiatrist.. Helps when playing with opponents minds :-D
 
Unlike me, Shuja's game is not as dependent on his long pips. He uses the pips to mix it up to get weak shots that he can put away with his crushing forehand. His forehand is his strongest weapon and the long pips are just a accessory for his game. He has gone the distance with many high rated players and it was just a matter of time until he would pull a big upset. However, the long pips on the backhand can turn into a weakness if a long pips player plays a specialist who specifically targets that side of his blade to exploit the weaknesses of such rubber. Style has lots to do with it.. I just almost went 5 games with 2650 rated Kai Zheng at the Westchester open.. He beat me easy in game 1 and I had a huge lead in game 2 and lost on deuce. Then I took game 3 and kept up with him in game 4.. With a little bit of luck, I could've had a 2:1 lead instead of trailing 1:2 and the guy is 2650.. Also took a game off Jennifer (yue) Wu in my prior match and kept the other games close. Table Tennis is a lot about styles and sometimes, those matchups work in favor of the long pips player but very often they work against us.. At the same Westchester tournament, I struggled against a 1898 rated player and only beat him in 5. The opponent (fadi) had medium pips on his backhand and a good forehand attack. He would not give me any spin and would tee off on any of my higher returns. This combined with fast, spinless serves gave me trouble. I was only able to win game 5 because I found out that his weakness was short balls into his forehand. As he tried to go for the kill quickly, he started missing once I returned short enough to his forehand so that he couldn't get under the ball.. Still, he almost had me and he was almost 300 points below me while I had a chance beating a player almost 500 points above me...


Edited by Pushblocker - 12/12/2013 at 1:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beeray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by beeray1 beeray1 wrote:

You're right, there's no such thing as a long pips player that knows what to do with dead serves. 

Wacko

Riddle me this: what is an OX long pips player going to do to the ball other than return it dead with his pips, no matter where he places it?

Riddle me this: What OX Long Pips player of notable level is only going to use said pips for every service return? 

Of course, this could be moot if the guy Tim lost to was only using his pips for everything. In which case, I got nothin' LOL 

However, the asterisk of "no matter where he places it" doesn't work, because that wasn't even considered in the post I responded to. 

The comment I responded to was, " ..he could have easily served dead balls the entire time and finished the next ball. i'm surprised after this many years of training/matches he hasn't figured this out." 

This puts the dead ball serve as an ultimate answer to a pips player. If that's the case, no reason for anyone in the world to play pips because they are helpless all the time. Just serve dead and you win. If a pips player returns a well placed low shot with his pips from a dead serve, especially varying the pace, his placement can prevent the finishing of the next ball every single time. A low dead ball is harder to open with authority than a cut ball or topspin ball because there's no spin to use for your shot. You have to come up with all of it. 

I'd really want to see this video regardless. What's the name of the canadian player that uses MP/LP on one of those huge autograph blades? David Mahabir I think? I think it's a similar thing.  I saw this guy that beat Tim play Zhou Xin at the L.A. Open and Zhou Xin looked really bored beating him. But I think the guy got a game anyway. 

I really thought that you had some new answer -  a low dead ball is not harder to wipe out than a low chop ball for players at that level.  If the player twiddles or runs around, then isn't that an easier return for Tim?  The key is that he needs to know what is on the ball.  In any case, without seeing the match, this is fun speculation, but my point is that the long dead ball serve strategy is much more powerful than you think.  In any case, the key is to serve simple serves that you can read the return on.  They don't have to be pure dead balls, but they usually have less sidespin so the ball doesn't confuse you.  If Jafar is better at third ball returns and rallies than Tim, that is great, and he fully deserves his win.

Answer to what? Your response added an element of the match that I was not responding to initially- placement. If you want a direct response then sure- unless there's a heck of a sponge, you can't really return anything other than a low-spin ball with the pips from a dead serve. But when you say "No matter where he places it" you're ignoring the most important part of a pips players arsenal. Dead or not, they can vary the pace and placement to keep you from putting the ball away every time. They will make you work for the shot as much as possible to develop a structure to the rally. 

Nothing was said about where a ball was placed in the original post I quoted. Only said you just need to serve a dead ball and put away the third the entire match. It doesn't work that way, and if it did then like I said above there would be no point in playing with long pips. There would be no defenders, no LP blockers. They'd all be obsolete because of the revolutionary dead ball serve.

I'm not downplaying the dead ball serve. It's not the ultimate answer though, variation is a better one. I don't know what you're arguing with. I'm not really arguing against anything you've said. The point is what you said above, you have to be able to read the returns. I'm not arguing that, even though you're trying to make it sound like I am. Again: The post I referred to originally put it as the ultimate answer that you can just spam over and over. I'm not saying it's a bad choice. I'm saying you can't just serve dead the whole  match and expect to put away every return. Nothing works that way in table tennis. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 4:23pm
Beeray1, I understand where you are coming from but I also think you are being too generous to a 2600 player when you allow him to miss attacks repeatedly. Watch the Middle Eastern Powerlooper play Pushblocker and give me a good reason why Timothy Wang should not be able to emulate that.

Dead ball is a generic name for light spin. There are lots of variations of light spin that we call deadballs and they are all not quote the same.

Edited by NextLevel - 12/10/2013 at 4:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 4:24pm
If Tim were to vary the depth and placement of a dead ball serve, mixed with occasional underspin serves, he'd have no trouble finishing the next ball. Footwork is pretty much a non issue at the 2600+ level when playing an ox long pip many levels below you. The ox long pips can only generate so much speed on a spinless ball, and placement wise, even if he were to drop it short, a well placed flip would either end the point or set up an easy ball to kill. At the 2600+ level there really aren't that many balls that ox long pips can return that can't easily be hit for a winner. it's not like Shuja is a world class level player. There's a reason that of the world-class long pips players out there very few are using ox, and those that are use inverted on the other side, which is much more versatile than the short pips Shuja is using. There's obviously a lot of weakness to his style if he's only 2300 and being beaten by plenty of sub 2400 level players.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 4:36pm
I wonder why people is talking like beating a 2000+ player is easy just because he uses lps?
Anybody who's is able to play at the 2300 level with pips must have some extraordinary skills and must have faced tons of players who thot a simple strategy can beat them…

Its a good win, Tim probably had a bad day and Shuja probably had a great day. It happens, upsets happens all the time in sports 

I am enjoying the fact that this is turning into another pips vs inverted thread!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 4:46pm
Of course the "dead ball" serve is a god way to play against lp or anti players (like myself Wink) but don't you think the junk rubber plays do not realize this and practice that too. Do you think the dead ball serve is a secret only accessable to the attacker? At a 2300+ level you can expect that the junk rubber player has practiced that and has some sort of an answer to the dead ball serve. There is a counter strategy for every strategy in table tennis!
I used to have problems too against the dead ball serve and I have practiced that with a coach and bucket loads of ball. There are a couple of things the junk rubber player can do:
- block the ball short with good placement to avoid getting killed on the next shot (works well with slow anti)
- twiddle and attack with inverted rubber
- step around and attack with the inverted on forehand; has some risks but can be effecitve
- sidewipe; works well with lp but more difficult with (slick) anti
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 4:52pm
those are all great ideas, and indeed work well, however Shuja has short pips on his fh, making twiddling/stepping around option pretty much useless against a higher level player like Tim. His only real option would be a well placed block, which as I stated before could easily be flipped to a good position by Tim. At Tim's level any ball that is blocked back too high can also be flip killed rather easily. Assuming Shuja returns a deadball serve with the most amazing touch, Tim's short game should be able to exceed Shuja's rather comfortably to win him the point
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by kyle90 kyle90 wrote:

those are all great ideas, and indeed work well, however Shuja has short pips on his fh, making twiddling/stepping around option pretty much useless against a higher level player like Tim.
He can attack the ball with short pips using a counter stroke or even smash; he cannot loop the ball but he can still attack it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kyle90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 5:05pm
ok what's your point, if the dead serve is kept low enough, do you really think the resulting counter stroke is gonna put Shuja at an advantage to win the point? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 5:09pm
A very bad day at the office for Timothy Wang indeed but these loses happen unfortunately sometimes and can happen for a lot of reasons at all levels.  I am guessing brain freeze and taking the opponent a bit lightly may have been factors but kudos great win for the other guy who will be stuff of folklore for a few years to come and he deserves that. Always love the idea of the underdog pulling off an outrageous win. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Pimple Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 5:10pm
My point is that the dead serve is NOT the sure tactic to win against any junk rubber players and that there are counter tactics for it.
If you counter the dead ball serve and place it well the opponent won't be able to kill the ball and will likely loop it giving the junk rubber player the spin he wants to work with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/10/2013 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Matt Pimple Matt Pimple wrote:

Of course the "dead ball" serve is a god way to play against lp or anti players (like myself Wink) but don't you think the junk rubber plays do not realize this and practice that too. Do you think the dead ball serve is a secret only accessable to the attacker? At a 2300+ level you can expect that the junk rubber player has practiced that and has some sort of an answer to the dead ball serve. There is a counter strategy for every strategy in table tennis!
I used to have problems too against the dead ball serve and I have practiced that with a coach and bucket loads of ball. There are a couple of things the junk rubber player can do:
- block the ball short with good placement to avoid getting killed on the next shot (works well with slow anti)
- twiddle and attack with inverted rubber
- step around and attack with the inverted on forehand; has some risks but can be effecitve
- sidewipe; works well with lp but more difficult with (slick) anti
 


why not just chop the dead serve.
you are gonna be chopping all other ball thrown to your bh, why not start with serve?
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