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Timo vs Kuka

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regiz.rugenz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2014 at 11:52am

bump..


Edited by regiz.rugenz - 03/17/2014 at 11:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2014 at 11:55am

Come on people..

I've both studied robots and likewise played table tennis.. these 2 departments are my fave. worked a decade in robotics at our R&D and automation. Robots can never play like the pros in table tennis, not even close.

I'm also into motion graphics and 3D motion, and it's quite obvious how the angle shots were captured and thereby edited in the software, such as to add maneuvering of the scenes in the video to hide those angles where Kuka's arm can't be manipulated or taught to perform such task

Even the programmer himself, should also be able to play like a pro and have a good knowledge of the sports both scientifically and physically, in order for him to transfer that into technology. Does he have any idea at all how much a pro player could actually impart a spin on the ball and how reactive are the rubbers we all use.. such that he could program the arm to position the paddle at such angle and instruct to swing the arm in motion relative to the speed of the opposite incoming ball and brush through it for a return with a good height over the net? 

Even with a given coefficient of friction of the rubbers in use, how will he compute to make adjustments on the arm angles for some other variables, such as pushes made fake with little or no spins. though that part can be taken cared of through cameras and motion sensors to calculate spins imparted on the ball, but while the ball catapults on speed and curves on mid air, even changes it's own projectile on its descend relative to the spin which is unique to every rubber, that is extremely difficult..

That's not even to mention those acceleration imparted by these new tension sponges that largely varies depending on how much force was applied against it upon impact which is unpredictable plus their own elastic attributes that each of us all are continuously amazed of.

And much more..


For that... I'll show you a no gimmick but all real robot applicable to the sport.

For those who are still unsure if those videos you've watched was unreal and just for a movie, well I'm a disabled and a US PARA hopeful... but watch me I can fly here.  

CHEERS! °Q(ツ)/ 





Edited by regiz.rugenz - 03/17/2014 at 11:56am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2014 at 1:33pm
@regiz.rugenz, I don't see what you are complaining about.  Everyone agrees the video is poor.

While I agree that robots will never play like people I don't agree that they will never be able to beat the best but it will take a long time just like it took a long time for a chess computer to beat the world chess champion.  The chess computer also had the benefit of having the best of chess history downloaded into is memory to help evaluate positions.  A table tennis robot will have to learn to adapt quickly.

I don't agree the that the programmer needs to know how to play table tennis well.  He just needs to have a good understanding of programming and physics.  The equations are all well known. The coefficients for those equations are not known or even constant so one must do some system identification so these coefficients can changes as a function of speeds, spins, directions etc.  The robot would have to be able to change these coefficients while during play to adapt to differences in the opponents rubbers.

The math exists now. It is just a matte of time and money before a world champion robot can be made.  One obvious flaw it that the robot has "no foot work".   It is in a fixed location where it should be able to move left and right and forward and back as well as move it arm.  Moving a robot of that weight forwards, backwards and side ways would stress the mechanics.  The mechanics would be the limiting factor, not the physics, software, computing power or vision systems.

My company actually makes controllers for robotic applications as well as other applications. Many involve scanning systems. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

>>>@regiz.rugenz, I don't see what you are complaining about.  Everyone agrees the video is poor.

>>>A table tennis robot will have to learn to adapt quickly.

>>>I don't agree the that the programmer needs to know how to play table tennis well.  He just needs to have a good understanding of programming and physics.  The equations are all well known. 

 >>>The robot would have to be able to change these coefficients while during play to adapt to differences in the opponents rubbers.

>>>One obvious flaw it that the robot has "no foot work".   It is in a fixed location where it should be able to move left and right and forward and back as well as move it arm. 


 are you kidding me? Evil Smile 


Who's complaining?

i'm only expressing my thoughts and they are facts, not opinion. Wink

I program robots myself with V++, an advance software developed by Adept Automation in US. I've once worked as a Sr. Robotech Specialist for a disc manufacturer, specializing in Adept, Seiko, Fanuc, and the best from Germany called Staubli. They are all in par with Kuka and are called manipulators.

There are mainly 3 types of robots, Cartesian, SCARA, and the 6 axis Manipulator. Cartesian robots move by sliding along XYZ axis coordinate system and are not fixed in one location. this applies to your statement if you want a robot that moves, without loosing it's taught points.

However this is different with SCARA or the 6 axis Robots. They are faster as they mimic human arm movements cutting through all the XYZ coordinates to reach a point in space. But they have to be securely fixed in a fixture or bolted down to ground. Doing so assures accurate manipulation of each joints of the arm in space within a thousandth of a millimeter per millisecond accuracy.

The end-effector however, as in case of kuka is where his paddle securely attached into. it should not be held loosely or wobbly as oppose to the way we hold our paddles, for it will loose its taught point in space.. this may be also one important factor to note that from there alone robots will never play as good as the elites. and there's tons of factors to consider if you understand the precision required of it to reach the level of the elites with so much human of a flexibility. Robots doesn't work that way.

Vision is a separate entity, that looks at an object in space and relays data to the controller which then manipulates the arm.. but they are slower in accomplishing task if use to instruct a robot to reach a taught point in space on fly. How much more for a table tennis ball that curves in air on its trajectory in an unknown geometry relevant to the spin imparted on it, even dives at the opponents end court with such unknown trajectory that I have not encountered in my physics class, thus is what we normally see on a speeding launched missile on its descent before hitting it's target.. unless of course programmed.

So, what do you know about these stuffs? and who's complaining what? ... LOL!

Anyway, just a thought.. 

CHEERS!  ✌(ツ)°⁀°Q(ツ)








Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/02/2014 at 3:59am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pondus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:34pm
Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up


+1

I ignored everything until I saw the world Robotech, reminds me of the 80s anime, Macross/Robotech
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by liulin04 liulin04 wrote:

Originally posted by Pondus Pondus wrote:

Nerdiest trash-talking ever going down in here... Thumbs Up
+1
I ignored everything until I saw the world Robotech, reminds me of the 80s anime, Macross/Robotech

Pondus
Except there's no trash-talk in my post.. and maybe the only exception, LOL

liulin04
Oh darn, I haven't seen those anime's.. I've only watch Gigantor in 70's and Voltes V in the 80s. LOL







Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/01/2014 at 5:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote liulin04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:56pm
Here you go sir, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaimx6_EdEo

search "anime Robotech" on youtube, you should be pretty thrilled with watching these mechs battling each other out.  Another insanely popular anime is Gundam, which I'm sure you have heard of it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/01/2014 at 4:58pm
Thanks for the link.. Wink







Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/02/2014 at 3:25am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2014 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by regiz.rugenz regiz.rugenz wrote:

So, what do you know about these stuffs?
A lot, my company makes motion controllers that are used in custom robots, among other things, like moving pipes at an oil well.  Our controller can control 6 DOF stewart platforms for flight and race car simulators and movie props and it has even been used for handling spent nuclear fuel. Our customers make the mechanics and we supply the controller.





 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2014 at 6:28pm

Ah that's cool.. 

But that's different.. that's for controlling motors that moves large objects and are not designed for speed like a PLC system or RTC. Here's however, one of my fave robots that I've worked for similar to Kuka, called Staubli.


Let's us all Watch!



A Robot called Staubli... same as Kuka




Here's why Robots at a high speed need to be bolted down onto a fixture.




Here's a very reason why robots will never win against the elites.
watch as Japan's Azimo helplessly falling from stairs.




And here's a perfect robot that surely Works for our great Sports of Table Tennis.
 





You're all welcome! Wink





Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/02/2014 at 8:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TurboZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2014 at 7:53pm
I always think it is the Japanese who will come up with a super robot which can program to play with data of Ma Long, ZJK, XX.... so players outside China can one day find a way to beat China. Too much anime I guess.

Somehow reminds me of the movie Rocky IV. The Russian trained with all the high tech gears and Rocky got nothing but nature on his side. Interesting concept that human vs machine and win.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/02/2014 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by TurboZ TurboZ wrote:

I always think it is the Japanese who will come up with a super robot which can program to play with data of Ma Long, ZJK, XX.... so players outside China can one day find a way to beat China. Too much anime I guess.

Somehow reminds me of the movie Rocky IV. The Russian trained with all the high tech gears and Rocky got nothing but nature on his side. Interesting concept that human vs machine and win.   
+1




Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/02/2014 at 8:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2014 at 7:18am

I also honestly believe this is better than Kuka.. it's a cartesian type of  robot where it travels on a rail and using the XYZ coordinate system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2014 at 1:47pm
The XY robot should have GD Talon 0X on its blade because it plays push blocker style.  I doubt that robot would do well if the human hit the ball high so it bounced high. The robot can't attack high balls and any high balls it returned can be hit hard for winners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/12/2014 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by tt4me tt4me wrote:

The XY robot should have GD Talon 0X on its blade because it plays push blocker style.  I doubt that robot would do well if the human hit the ball high so it bounced high. The robot can't attack high balls and any high balls it returned can be hit hard for winners.

Honestly, there is no robot that would play like human, more so like of the elites. At least not yet on our present time. Kuka for now is even the worst.

The best robots are still those training robots that just throw several balls with different spins like the video I posted above which features Kasumi trying to lift a spin against robot's heavy under spin.
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