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Topspin balls cannot be attacked? |
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jrscatman 
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 Posted: 04/15/2014 at 12:05pm |
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V-Griper
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Posted: 04/15/2014 at 4:56pm |
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Well I think you coach is somewhat correct if you can keep the ball on low trajectory. The problem is that most people lift the ball fairly high over the net and even with allot of spin higher level players, around 1800 or so, can drive them. From my perspective the key isn't so much the spin as much as how high the ball clears the net and how high the ball bounces.
Classic example is when a serve is delivered wide to the FH and the ball is lifted. This shot usually ends up as a third ball kill unless the receiver can keep the ball low and/or place it really well. Example: Low ball plus good placement Edited by V-Griper - 04/16/2014 at 6:57am |
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/15/2014 at 11:40pm |
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V-Griper video link not working.
I found another video addressing the same issue. Here are the comments from Alex Zhang the student in the video: " Coach Yi teaches how to counter loop against slow, spinny, but relatively high, top spin balls. In this video, which was recorded one year ago, in January 2013, my success rate was low because I was HITTING too much, rather than LOOPING. The contact point is key to counter looping this type of slow, spinny, but high balls: contact the ball at off-center (i.e. at its side). You do NOT need to contact the ball early; Coach Yi advises to contact the ball at its highest point (at top of bounce). This is contrary to passive blocking, where we generally need to have early timing (when the ball is still on the rise, before the top of bounce). " Edited by jrscatman - 04/16/2014 at 12:05am |
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Butterfly MPS
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 6:45am |
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When I figured out the side thing, my level went up. In fact, in the modern speed glue effect rubber era, one could argue that your blade should always contact any topspin ball slightly off center and almost any ball (hits included) so that your stroke will be consistent.
By the way, the Ping Skills coach is doing it as well. He just isn't explaining it, unfortunately. It's funny how people tell you things when you are 1400 and they don't make sense then you find them painfully obvious when you start facing2000 level players consistently. Edited by NextLevel - 04/16/2014 at 6:51am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 2:24pm |
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I'll have to try the side thing - Wouldn't hitting off-center on heavy spinning ball be hard to control?
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Butterfly MPS
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townhousecrackers
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 2:49pm |
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In fact quite the opposite. Much easier for me to do in training than match setting, but working on it. I believe it has something to do with when you aren't contacting the ball directly on the spin axis, the spin doesnt bite the rubber and want to jump as much, so you can impart your will on the ball much easier.
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 2:52pm |
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It's really more about the racket angle and stroke trajectory and less about hitting off center - look at Alex's video again and see how he approaches the ball when he makes the shot (you can also look for Xkaboomx's work with Pierre-Luc Hinse) .
If you look at an advanced player looping the ball, you don't see them come into the ball with a paddle to hit the top of the ball - they usually come in to hit the top side, even when they are going for just topspin in a relatively straight line - look at the warmups before a match begins. They learn to hit the ball straight that way. One other reason my coach gave me was that the ball is so light that if you come into hit with a full paddle, the air from your paddle moves the ball more significantly. But in any case, that is what they do, mostly to avoid the incoming topspin from reacting and to be able to control the ball better.
Of course, it takes experience to develop the timing, ball feel and the control to hit a stroke without going in with the full paddle area so you can't make a beginner do that from day one. But this is another example of the kind of thing that can leave someone without access to a coach or a higher level player frustrated for a long time. You will also find that the more spin/speed sensitive the setup you are using, the more necessary it is to use this technique to counterloop.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 2:53pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 2:57pm |
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I've noticed in warm ups the high level guys are hitting slight angle on the racquet. I assumed this was to counter the the side spin all the ball. Figured most of their shots were side-top spins. Another things to test out at the table.
Very easy to reach the wrong conclusions in this game!
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Butterfly MPS
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 3:09pm |
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Keep in mind hitting with some sidespin can help against heavy backspin as well as heavy topspin.
As said above it will prevent the ball from biting into the rubber so much. Just watch out for "corkscrew" spin, similar to a football (American) being thrown. This spin is almost undetectable when the ball is traveling, unlike back, top, and sidespin, but has drastic affects if not accounted for when trying to hit a return with sidespin.
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townhousecrackers
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 3:15pm |
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Yup. I beleive this idea is paramount to the success of a banana flip or backhand opening loop vs backspin over the table Edit: More so the contact point/angle than the imparting of the sidespin
Edited by townhousecrackers - 04/16/2014 at 3:16pm |
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VKM
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 3:38pm |
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Correct. I am assuming a forward aggressive type stroke catching the ball on the side, not someone swiping at the ball parallel to the edge of the table.
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tt4me
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 5:20pm |
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These guys are counter looping lots of loops while testing.
There are very good players though. The key is to close the paddle a little bit more so the ball doesn't go high like in the video above with the coach and student. It isn't rocket science. If the ball goes high the close the paddle a little more the next time you see the same shot coming at you. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/16/2014 at 6:22pm |
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Purely closing the paddle is riskier than what the student is attempting (to come round the side of the ball). His misses may be fixed by closing the paddle but that is not the spirit of the shot he is trying to make. What is really happening is that his contact is too hard/uncontrolled (he once posted on this site that he uses an OFF+ blade).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 4:51pm |
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"corkscrew" would explain a strange serve I once encountered. Ball appeared to defy the laws of physics. I'll keep this in mind.
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Butterfly MPS
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 4:58pm |
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Not many people think much about corkscrew spin. One of my Chinese friends a long time ago told me about a secret shot Ma Lin had in his arsenal called a "backspin loop", a topspinning shot with enough corkscrew that when an opponent tried to angle their next shot it would hit the paddle with backspin and die into the net. I have a corkscrew serve with three variations that all look quite similar. I can almost always win points in desperate moments with these serves.
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TTFrenzy
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 5:42pm |
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1.How old are you? 2. You watch too much tv 3. Your post was hilarious 4. Im with stupid 5.Jesus christ, Did I really READ THIS?? 6. I quit
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smackman
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 5:48pm |
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all this sounds complicated, I would recommend doing a smash more like a counter hit but a lot less back swing, you simply don't have time
so all forearm a little twist and great timing |
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BH-Man
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 7:42pm |
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Smaaaaccck 'em !!!
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shay2be
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Posted: 04/17/2014 at 9:22pm |
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I think the coach is simply just saying there is more likely a heavy topspin will make the opponent block or defend rather than a drive or any other shot... I also find this true
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/18/2014 at 6:54am |
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I tend to agree, I am thinking attacking a heavy spin ball with drives or hits is a riskier shot. Although, it is possible to put these away, it's extremely risky - so might not be the best option. |
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Butterfly MPS
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/19/2014 at 2:12pm |
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1. 24 2. I don't even have a TV in my apartment. 3. Thanks. This was simply a story told to me by a friend, I don't know how Ma Lin did it or even if it is real. 4. Clearly you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say corkscrew spin. You are just being rude. A simple forum search will give you sufficient information on corkscrew spin. I suggest you educate yourself and stop being ignorant. 5. Yes 6. Thank you, you added nothing to the thread except to insult me. "I can almost always win points in desperate moments with these serves." Do you not understand this either? Desperate points are when you're opponent has match point and you are down 8-10 with the serve. I can do two of my corkscrew serves back to back with confidence to help push deuce. Jrscatman: Any luck using a little sidespin to attack the slow spinny loops? |
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/19/2014 at 2:37pm |
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Reinecke,
I didn't get a chance to try it. I was focusing on hitting slow spinny loops - however due to league play - couldn't experiment much. Also, I'll need to find a practice partner who can slow spin the ball to me. Most of my regular playing partners are power players who tend to drive the ball or hit hard. I'll have write down what to test before getting to the club - once I get on the table, kinda forget about things. Will make it a point to try to tomorrow!
Edited by jrscatman - 04/19/2014 at 2:38pm |
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APW46
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 12:54pm |
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How easy it is to attack (kill) heavy topspin, depends on how near it is to the net. Deep heavy looped topspin is difficult, whilst any ball that lacks depth is easy to smack into next week.
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:04pm |
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Just to report back - tried some of the suggestions: here is what worked for me.
Slow loops were very effective. My opponent ended up blocking back most of them - as his hits were off the table 90% of the time. He was more successful with counter looping but still not very consistent. We are both about the same level players. I tried looping side spin on top spin - I had trouble contacting the side of the ball and didn't really pursue it much. Felt bad forcing my opponent to go get the ball everytime. Maybe with a bucket of balls - I might try it again. I will have to practice this more and try to use it more in matches. Again, higher level players might be able hit my spin - not sure but as APW46 suggested - I will try to keep it deep. |
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kurokami
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:16pm |
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yes, topspin balls can be attacked. you just have to note the incoming spin, speed, power, and adjust your return accordingly. topspin kick off your racket will be parabolic and angle of return depends on those that i mentioned earlier. some ppl don't understand why when the incoming ball is clearly a topspin loop, how come some go into the net and some go out. i've literally had ppl say "it's amazing you can hit underspin loops". oook.
no, it's actually that the speed, angle of incidence, and force of impact combined with those properties of their return is high enough that the return angle is nearly horizontal. i.e. if there was no net, it would reach its apex at a higher pt and go longer. a spinny loop that has speed but no power will kick higher, etc. so in general, adjust your racket angle against the incoming speed and spin, what angle the loop is directed, and softness of your attack against power (you can go hard against hard but it's a lot more difficult than just rebounding theirs in a balanced return). as long as it's within your range of attack, you should be able to attack topspin balls.
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:53pm |
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For your sidespin loops, you may have the wrong "swing thought" for hitting them. Don't think about hitting the side of the ball.
Instead, do your regular stroke as if a normal loop, but break your wrist slightly towards your arm. The more you break your wrist the more sidespin you will get. Don't really have to think much about the contact point just break your wrist. Don't physically snap the bone break, I just mean bend your wrist
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jrscatman
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:57pm |
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Ok, I'll try it once I get the cast off! No just kidding. I just found it was easier to loop hitting the back and top of the ball. But I know what you mean. However, I'm in phase where I'm trying to reduce the amount wrist I use - so I'm trying to get away from using too much wrist at the moment. Thanks for suggestions.
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Reinecke
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 3:31pm |
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Hard to be clear, I wish I could just demonstrate.
Some wrist you use accentuates the looping motion, adding more spin. This is when you move your wrist parallel to the blade. I find this hurts my wrist when I do it too much so I try not to do it a lot. I'm talking about bending your wist perpendicular to blade. You are not "using more wrist" you simply adjust the angle that your racket hits the ball. He explains it pretty well here. |
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NextLevel
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Posted: 04/21/2014 at 5:49pm |
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That's why strengthening the wrists is part of the exercise routine of many players. Otherwise, keep your wrists loose and they will naturally move. Forcing them to move is necessary only over the table for the most part. Locking them is what makes people tense, though it can make the stroke easier to time for some.
And as you rightly pointed out, you need to be able to change racket angles with your wrist, even if you do not want to actively use it to generate speed/spin on the stroke.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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jrscatman wrote: