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beginners with expensive, overly fast equipment

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    Posted: 04/21/2014 at 12:22am
one dude U1200 owned a mizutani, a viscaria, and some all-wood blade idk, all with tenergy.

yes i could've passively blocked BUT
1. the guy tried to smash from the get-go (a big no-no for me) 2. he approached me "let's play" with a smug confidence as if he were equal to me just bc he could smash back and forth with U1600, their "local experts" (sigh, must teach a lesson) 3. by saying he needs to switch his racket after missing, he implies it's the equipment and not the difference in our level

i didn't say anything but just continued fh looping everything at close range. literally 100 balls in a row, he hit 2 past the net only. ball after ball went into the net. one hour past with perhaps 3 returns from him landing in at best. idk what he was thinking, STILL trying to smash at me. after the first 20 went into the net, he was like "let me change my racket". i did my best to keep a straight face while thinking *it's not the equipment...*

it's such a bad idea to play with too fast equipment. being able to smash back and forth with U1600 doesn't mean they're ready for a high level blade. who recommended mj and vis w/ tenergy to this guy? $500 down the drain






Edited by kurokami - 04/21/2014 at 11:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ByeByeAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 12:29am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

idky some ppl who are beginners like clearly U1200 ignore advice from high level players.

one dude asked to practice with me today and i saw he owned a mizutani, a viscaria, and some all-wood blade idk, all with tenergy.

literally 100 balls in a row, he hit 2 past the net. all i did was loop lol. after the first 20 went into the net, he was like "let me change my racket". i did my best to keep a straight face while thinking *it's not the equipment...*

it's such a bad idea to play with too fast equipment. against other players U1600 he seemed to do fine smashing back and forth. it's not going to work against hard topspin loops bc they'll kick faster than they're able to spin, either netting or kicking past. i don't think he even got more than 3 balls in the entire hour and that was mostly bc i'd gotten tired forehand looping the entire table to work on my footwork speed so the spin output dropped. 

yes, i'm mean. i dislike practicing with U2000. evil reigns supreme hehe


when that happens to me i go right up to the player..about 4 inches from his face and very calmly tell him that if im going to continue to hit with him he has to get at least 10 in a row right to my fh...real gentle like....and if he does that then he can open up....but there has to be "value" in it for both of us.....i dont come straight out and tell him that im doing him a favour by hitting with him...but it has to work for both of us....

regards
rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 12:33am
You should be nicer to beginners - regardless of how expensive their equipment. If your loop is that strong - chances are he would have trouble with the cheap stuff as well. 
But I agree - some beginners do over spend. Actually, most beginners do ....I did it when I started now I'm cheap! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Avallo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 12:36am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

one dude clearly U1200 asked to practice with me today on a slow easter sunday, referred by a friend, and i saw he owned a mizutani, a viscaria, and some all-wood blade idk, all with tenergy.

literally 100 balls in a row, he hit 2 past the net when all i did was loop. they weren't kill shots either, just my standard chard topspin loop a la zjk style. there wasn't much i could practice with U1200 so i just fh looped everything to work on footwork speed. after the first 20 went into the net, he was like "let me change my racket". i did my best to keep a straight face while thinking *it's not the equipment...*

it's such a bad idea to play with too fast equipment. being able to smash back and forth with U1600 doesn't mean they're ready for a high level blade. who recommended mj and vis w/ tenergy to this guy? o m g. $500 down the drain




hahaha
I think it's happened not only in yours but in mine too...
they only think about how to build the fastest weapon and never know how to use/control it...
using Schlagger+T05+Bluefire Jp02, he was angry when it beaten by unknown blade like Avalox P700 (in my country, it's so inferior brand hehehe)

but
1 thing that i love by facing them.... when they lose... they think that it's about equipment...
they sell it and i buy it
hahahahaha



Edited by Avallo - 04/21/2014 at 12:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aroonkl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:22am
Originally posted by Avallo Avallo wrote:

[QUOTE=kurokami]
but
1 thing that i love by facing them.... when they lose... they think that it's about equipment...
they sell it and i buy it
hahahahaha
So U gotta beat them bad. Price will get cheaper. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:26am
@rick i'd like to do that, but a guy who's really polite and nice to me asked me to play him so i felt obliged. i usually don't practice with U2000 except when it's someone i know and think well of or if they ask me nicely. i figured i could practice footwork speed covering everything with the fh and testing a new racket so i just said ok. 

@jrscatman yea, he'd have trouble with beginner equipment also, but at least a better chance instead of relying on the equipment speed and ending up with a flat smacking technique. 

that he was smashing at me from the start when i fed the ball nice and easy, the smug arrogance, and that he was using fast blades including my precious Viscaria Confused that i decided to teach him a lesson. he was not just smashing, but smashing random, then intentionally trying a wide fh, bh down the line combo when he saw i was covering everything fh. then he started serving short and low on purpose for a change, as if to prevent me from attacking strong. we were practicing rallying so i don't take it nicely when someone tries to serve short, half-long all of a sudden w/o telling you. so i loop killed those a couple times in a row. that probably being the last thing he could attempt, i think i proved my pt. even vs a basic technique, he couldn't do anything. "let me change my racket" after missing? lol. as if it were the racket. 1000+ pts difference and no respect to the technique. r u kidding me 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:30am
@aroonkl yea, i served nice and easy, he smashed anywhere on the table at random, i looped them all back at close range fh only, and once i looped, basically every attempted return went into the net. this went on for almost an hr lol. i think it was pretty much one-sided ownage. Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jrscatman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:37am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

@rick i'd like to do that, but a guy who's really polite and nice to me asked me to play him so i felt obliged. i usually don't practice with U2000 except when it's someone i know and think well of or if they ask me nicely. i figured i could practice footwork speed covering everything with the fh and testing a new racket so i just said ok. 

@jrscatman yea, he'd have trouble with beginner equipment also, but at least a better chance instead of relying on the equipment speed and ending up with a flat smacking technique. 

that he was smashing at me from the start when i fed the ball nice and easy, the smug arrogance, and that he was using fast blades including my precious Viscaria Confused that i decided to teach him a lesson. he was not just smashing, but smashing random, then intentionally trying a wide fh, bh down the line combo when he saw i was covering everything fh. then he started serving short and low on purpose for a change, as if to prevent me from attacking strong. we were practicing rallying so i don't take it nicely when someone tries to serve short, half-long all of a sudden w/o telling you. so i loop killed those a couple times in a row. that probably being the last thing he could attempt, i think i proved my pt. even vs a basic technique, he couldn't do anything. "let me change my racket" after missing? lol. as if it were the racket. 1000+ pts difference and no respect to the technique. r u kidding me 
I withdraw my objection - can't stand players who don't know the difference between match play and practice. Also players with the attitude.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qualizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 1:42am
i have similar problem at a club. There is an older gentleman asked if I wanna hit, so i was like, why not. But I regret accepting because all he does right at the start is hard smashing, and I try to return the ball back in a consistent way, but he seems not appreciating it and keep hard smashing it. 

So at one point I told him we are not trying to win a point here, we are doing warm up and drills. I guess he doesn't understand. The next time he asked me to play, I simply didn't spend too much warm up time with him and have him played a set with me and finish him off quickly Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aroonkl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:02am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

@aroonkl yea, i served nice and easy, he smashed anywhere on the table at random, i looped them all back at close range fh only, and once i looped, basically every attempted return went into the net. this went on for almost an hr lol. i think it was pretty much one-sided ownage. Cool
Could not believe u practiced with this cartoon for an hour. Play games and let him earn only couple points. I would do very curvy mixed pendulum serve. See these toony scratch their heads is priceless.
(Anyway u would still be aggravated when he says this blade is new, too slow, not suitable to his style blah blah..... Sometimes u  could not wake them up. Let them be. Do like the Avallo said: Beat them and buy their gears cheap. Big smile)


Edited by aroonkl - 04/21/2014 at 2:11am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ByeByeAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:09am
Originally posted by qualizon qualizon wrote:

i have similar problem at a club. There is an older gentleman asked if I wanna hit, so i was like, why not. But I regret accepting because all he does right at the start is hard smashing, and I try to return the ball back in a consistent way, but he seems not appreciating it and keep hard smashing it. 

So at one point I told him we are not trying to win a point here, we are doing warm up and drills. I guess he doesn't understand. The next time he asked me to play, I simply didn't spend too much warm up time with him and have him played a set with me and finish him off quickly Confused


hi qualizon

when i play guys better than me my whole approach is to make it worthwhile for them (so they will hit with me in the future) so i block a lot and just feed their power zones.     my blocking is excellent (stems from being a lefty) so guys can really tee up on me and it's coming back to them...nice and soft....time and time again...until they miss....

me expecting the same from others (not as good as myself) almost seems like an impossible request...

regards
rick


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qualizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:29am
Originally posted by ByeByeAbout ByeByeAbout wrote:

Originally posted by qualizon qualizon wrote:

i have similar problem at a club. There is an older gentleman asked if I wanna hit, so i was like, why not. But I regret accepting because all he does right at the start is hard smashing, and I try to return the ball back in a consistent way, but he seems not appreciating it and keep hard smashing it. 

So at one point I told him we are not trying to win a point here, we are doing warm up and drills. I guess he doesn't understand. The next time he asked me to play, I simply didn't spend too much warm up time with him and have him played a set with me and finish him off quickly Confused


hi qualizon

when i play guys better than me my whole approach is to make it worthwhile for them (so they will hit with me in the future) so i block a lot and just feed their power zones.     my blocking is excellent (stems from being a lefty) so guys can really tee up on me and it's coming back to them...nice and soft....time and time again...until they miss....

me expecting the same from others (not as good as myself) almost seems like an impossible request...

regards
rick



when I said hard smash from this gentleman, it was more like random hard smash with no control or purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ByeByeAbout Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 2:35am
Originally posted by qualizon qualizon wrote:

Originally posted by ByeByeAbout ByeByeAbout wrote:

Originally posted by qualizon qualizon wrote:

i have similar problem at a club. There is an older gentleman asked if I wanna hit, so i was like, why not. But I regret accepting because all he does right at the start is hard smashing, and I try to return the ball back in a consistent way, but he seems not appreciating it and keep hard smashing it. 

So at one point I told him we are not trying to win a point here, we are doing warm up and drills. I guess he doesn't understand. The next time he asked me to play, I simply didn't spend too much warm up time with him and have him played a set with me and finish him off quickly Confused


hi qualizon

when i play guys better than me my whole approach is to make it worthwhile for them (so they will hit with me in the future) so i block a lot and just feed their power zones.     my blocking is excellent (stems from being a lefty) so guys can really tee up on me and it's coming back to them...nice and soft....time and time again...until they miss....

me expecting the same from others (not as good as myself) almost seems like an impossible request...

regards
rick



when I said hard smash from this gentleman, it was more like random hard smash with no control or purpose.


ya...i know the type very well....there are four available options

1) let them hit like the psycho's they are and try to return the shots...
2) let them know that they are out of line and to define how the next 30 minutes are going to pan out
3)  introduce rule whereby random smashes are allowed only after 10 shots
4) refrain from player at all with this player

regards
rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 5:14am
I think you guys are being a bit mean and not understanding of people.

@Kurokami. You are a very good player. I'm sure that you could have fed that guy so that he could get a few shots in. He's just going thru a phase. He'll learn in time and greatly appreciate your 'teaching'.

@ qualizon
I understand that type of player well. Each time they approach the table, it's as if they are in the middle of a WC final. My teamate is like that and he's been playing for 60(!) years. But I've learned a lot from him about fighting spirit and never giving up. Even at at 2:10 down he plays as if he can still win.
You just have to find what makes him tick to get the most out of a practice session. For instance just say, "block or chop for me to your BH as I want to practise my loop-drive and you can practise your blocks/chops".


Edited by Tinykin - 04/21/2014 at 5:16am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mercuur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 5:16am
The thing is that beginners think that price counts for objektive value. Worst scenario when I advice a cheaper bat is that they smile back at me (trying not to show they feel insulted) and next day buy this type of equipment over internet. 
They simply can,t seperate price value and objektive value as I can so that has a risk to confuse between us. 

Luckily with blades objektive value and price is more related for beginners.
For instance an Osp expert for 80 euro or so is a perfect beginners blade (once a beginner is sure to play for a longer period and invest time in the sport) better them any cheaper blade that I know off.  Objectively better in my book.
Therefor, when asked for advice, I always start with the blade and suggest them the option of buying such a classy and expensive blade or something cheaper dependant on budget, I use arguments speaking for a more expensive blade such as good feedback for learning to anticipate on spin, allround quality to develop allround for first years aso.

The psychological effect is that before it comes to rubbers they allready trust me more for taking them seriously.
Then I can explain that rubbers only last a year or so and that cheaper rubbers are actually better for this first year.
They don,t distrust me on the rubbers anymore (or when I warn them for blades as Butterfly MJ)  because I convinced them I took them serious by suggesting an expensive blade seriously. I haven,t had a beginner really buy such an expensive blade yet (we seldom have new players at our club) but the psychological effect worked a few times.

For good understanding, gaining trust is not an aim I have doing this but more a welcome sideffect.
I really think it is a good (better) option for a beginner and that,s why I suggest it just as I suggest a few cheaper options. Dependant on budget they can make their own choice then. 


Edited by mercuur - 04/21/2014 at 5:17am

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote channyboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 5:23am
Reminds me of the good old days, there was a special thrill to EJing, once you improve it doesn't give you the same vibe anymore :(. 

That being said, Schlager carbon with normal hurricanes both sides was a silly idea. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 5:30am
I maybe recognise this...

I'm not sure it's only equipment though; it's just beginner syndrome. ...

I think the players they usually rally with return light weak balls. When you
rally with them, the returned ball is fast and "heavy" with spin and it appears at
them too fast and skips on the table. So they try to return it and smack it back at you.

And you think "what are you playing at" ...

... Then you realise that they don't have the finesse and technique to return
the ball the same way...

It's almost a reflex smash. ...

I don't respect a bad attitude though, that just ain't cool...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 6:16am
I think the approach taken to the whole situation only makes sense if you know the player and he is notorious for doing that. The truth is that many beginners do not know better and they are trying to give you their best shot. Even beginners who do know better are sometimes guilty of misunderstanding what is involved in controlling a high quality ball. After all, expense and Tenergy aside, most people use OFF to OFF+ blades plus tensors in USATT tournaments. And coaches don't always teach warmup etiquette. I try to explain to lower rated players that if you are playing a higher rated player, the most important thing is to consistently keep the ball on the table and do what the player wants because if you can, you will hit with them again and again.

Too often, one hit wonder shots are encouraged by fast equipment so such players aren't used to rallying and the importance of consistency. But if someone explains it to them, they may get the message. As they will receive it from multiple sources over time.




I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 6:21am
Finally, there is nothing wrong with pulverizing an opponent during a warm-up. Getting used to crushing weak balls is part of practice. What o don't get is whether the issues at heart here were raised to the player or this is just an attempt to send up the ignorant.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 7:27am
this happens all the time

I'm thinking of introducing a new rule: whoever misses - picks up the ball

because, honestly, when we play players like that, basically aren't we forced to pick up the ball for their deficient play?

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reinecke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 9:29am
The problem is not his equipment it's his attitude.

He may benefit from using something different, but he could also take great benefit from leaning to control powerful shots from a better player with a setup he has invested in. 

I was the same way in warm ups, trying to smash or win everything, before I started trying to get better, watching training videos and professional matches. It took me only a month or two of playing to realize the error of my ways. I was getting better faster than many of my peers who started at the same time, and had to explain to them how to warm up.

I asked them have you ever seen any of the top players warm up? They don't try to win points, or hit balls all over the table. hit forehand across court and then backhands. If you have more time you can do loops, pushes, drills, etc.

Even after this they still liked winning points when they got to the table. I insisted on a "professional warmup". This changed their attitude and it benefited everyone.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeaverMD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 10:39am
Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

one dude U1200 owned a mizutani, a viscaria, and some all-wood blade idk, all with tenergy.

Great! Now please tell me he also was wearing CNT Li-Ning shirts.  In any endeavor, you should always look good trying.  Many TT purists tend to neglect this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crowsfeather Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 10:57am
Why there is always someone like this, haha.
This happen in my local club too, a kid from no where came up want a match with me.
He use Timoboll T5000 and rakza7.
We do some basic forehand warm up and he just smash.

So i just lob the ball for him, he lost to everyone here.
He was kinda adorable 
after the match he said ,
MANNN I just tried, I ran here and you guys drain my energy.

So I and my pals start a funny prank, just lob him every ball.
Then after 6-7 visits the kid's shoulder was displaced and he had to be in an armcast/armsling for months.

Clown What have we done = = ????

I'm no longer an EJ and I'm proud .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmetsbeltran15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:02am
Originally posted by aroonkl aroonkl wrote:

Originally posted by kurokami kurokami wrote:

@aroonkl yea, i served nice and easy, he smashed anywhere on the table at random, i looped them all back at close range fh only, and once i looped, basically every attempted return went into the net. this went on for almost an hr lol. i think it was pretty much one-sided ownage. Cool
Could not believe u practiced with this cartoon for an hour. Play games and let him earn only couple points. I would do very curvy mixed pendulum serve. See these toony scratch their heads is priceless.
(Anyway u would still be aggravated when he says this blade is new, too slow, not suitable to his style blah blah..... Sometimes u  could not wake them up. Let them be. Do like the Avallo said: Beat them and buy their gears cheap. Big smile)

I too condescendingly beat up on novice players because of their misguided equipment purchases.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:03am
Originally posted by qualizon qualizon wrote:

i have similar problem at a club. There is an older gentleman asked if I wanna hit, so i was like, why not. But I regret accepting because all he does right at the start is hard smashing, and I try to return the ball back in a consistent way, but he seems not appreciating it and keep hard smashing it. 

So at one point I told him we are not trying to win a point here, we are doing warm up and drills. I guess he doesn't understand. The next time he asked me to play, I simply didn't spend too much warm up time with him and have him played a set with me and finish him off quickly Confused
 
 
That is exactly what that Pyungtaek TT president was doing the 3-5 minutes prior to that clip I posted a year or so ago. You try to place the ball easy to the Fh so they can keep rallying, but when they get that easy ball in the FH powerzone, it is power smash. Old dude can still smash pretty hard with J-Pen anywhere they want and smile with glee. I'm all for an older gent being happy, but in a game he has got to earn it not as easy as that. I was quickly losing patience with picking up the ball every 3rd ball. That match I was still taking it easy on him, not going all out attack, giving him balls he might like but are low percentage, allowing him to miss a lot and occasionally going on offense with spin or 1-2 loopkill or smash. That was enough to discourage him. I think some one convinced him he could smash the foreigner or the foreigner's spins were weak.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:08am
the other thing that these 'beginners' do not possess (the ones who smash every ball as hard as they can)

is the gene that allows them to see what's happening outside of their own little world

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bonggoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:10am
So beginners can't have expensive equipment?

Is there a price point guide for skill level just in case someone ask me for equipment advice. I don't want to give the wrong information and having said person laugh at, or beat up by over 2000 pros.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:16am
Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:

So beginners can't have expensive equipment?

Is there a price point guide for skill level just in case someone ask me for equipment advice. I don't want to give the wrong information and having said person laugh at, or beat up by over 2000 pros.


Exactly. I think people are siding with kurokami without a serious evaluation of what the situation is about. Why can't a beginner use a Boll ALC + two tenergy rubbers? And if the beginner plays wild, do we confirm his education and instruct him, or act like jerks because we are better players and can do so?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cmetsbeltran15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:17am
Originally posted by bonggoy bonggoy wrote:

So beginners can't have expensive equipment?

Is there a price point guide for skill level just in case someone ask me for equipment advice. I don't want to give the wrong information and having said person laugh at, or beat up by over 2000 pros.

It's not so much a price point, but more of the binary variable that is whether the equipment is made by Butterfly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/21/2014 at 11:38am
Some beginners have natural abilities albeit there technical form needs a lot of work. These types of player adapt quickly to equipment so in some cases faster/higher performance/expensive equipment can be justified.   
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