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Blocking Advice? |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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Thanks, Baal. 100% agree.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Perhaps a better phrasing than blocking aggressively would be to tell them to block more firmly. But blocking is a lot more basic than looping; even a beginner can quickly learn to block firmly, and see how the spin from a loop takes on his paddle less, and thereby gain consistency. -Larry Hodges
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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What they are demonstrating in this video, and what the opening posting asks, are different things. The opening poster isn't a beginner - he even asked if he should try counterlooping against slow, spinny loops. If all he wants to do is pop the ball back weakly, where he's not worried about popping the ball up, then all he has to do is stick his racket out and block back softly, and he'll develop a consistent but weak blocking game. The spin would take on his racket more, so he'd have less control, but if he just pops the ball back weakly then the very slowness of his return would keep it on the table. If he wants to make an effective block that hits consistently, then he needs to block more firmly (i.e. more aggressively). If he puts a little pace on the ball but not too aggressively in a misguided attempt to be consistent, that's when it'll probably go off the end over and over. That's why beginners and intermediate players have so much trouble with slow, spinny loops. Instead, they need to block more firmly, more aggressively, so the blocks are both consistent and effective. You can go for a soft and low block by just sticking the racket out with a more closed angle, but this is harder to control than if you block more firmly, and will tend to pop balls up. Since the spin takes on the racket more, you have to get the racket angle almost perfectly right, while you have more leeway if you block firmly and somewhat aggressively. (On the other hand, a slower, dead block that stays low is rather easy with most non-inverted surfaces, or with less lively or less grippy inverted surfaces.) The video is showing something different, i.e. teaching beginners how to adjust their racket angle against heavy topspin. However, where he says the racket does not move forward, I disagree. I saw this video a few years ago when I first started my blog, and chose not to link to it for that reason. While you can block that way, it's teaching a rather poor habit, and makes things more difficult for beginning and beginning/intermediate players. A more firm block, with the racket moving forward, is easier and more consistent in making decent blocks (not pop-ups), since spin takes on it less. Players with very good slow, spinny loops usually struggle with players who block aggressively as that mostly counteracts their topspin. At my club, we have eight full-time coaches, seven of them from China, two former Chinese national team members, the rest former province team members. (I'm the lone non-Chinese full-time coach.) All teach blocking against spinny loops with a firm, aggressive stroke. When I slow loop in practice matches with the kids, they are taught to block aggressively (or counterloop), and they have been pretty successful in this. When they block off, over and over the Chinese coaches tell them to block more aggressively. It is against faster loops that you can mostly just stick your racket out and play off the opponent's own pace. When I face an inverted player who just sticks his racket out to block my loop, I'm not going to feed into this by trying to loop hard with my opening loop; I'm going to throw my slowest, spinniest loop deep on the table, and watch them block off or pop it up. I can also mess up these type of blockers by varying my spin (even dead loops) as they have to get their racket angle almost perfect to make an effective block, and that's not easy against heavy or varying spin. I think the opening poster was asking how he could block these spinny loops back consistently so he could win the point, not so he could just pop the ball back and hope for the best. Otherwise I'd tell him to just block as weakly as possible so the ball pops back on the table, slow but high. Instead, he should block more firmly, which will lead to consistent and effective blocks. -Larry Hodges
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JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
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Aha! Lots of great advice, that' exactly how it is.
I also feel, similarly to what Baal has posted here earlier, that wording does get in the way a little, at least for me and all the other less-than-very-advanced players. It looks like that, in order for me to effectively block a heavy topspin loop, the heavy spin that is on the incoming ball must be in contact with the surface of my racket for as short a time as possible, hence a "short lasting", or a fast, or an aggressive, or a firm block will work well... For the reason that a longer contact gives to the incoming strong spin a chance to do the damage, a soft block, a slow block, or a gentle block will be more difficult. Hence, one must be fast and decisive during the contact when dealing with a slow heavy topspin. But, if I got it the right way, it is the same as what was said previously in this thread. Edit: Or maybe, just maybe, a firm block means a block where I use a fast and overpowering motion, guiding the ball over a distance as I move the racket?
Edited by JacekGM - 05/20/2014 at 11:25pm |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Larry,
Thanks for the insight. It always confused me how Wang Hao was able to block Zhang Jike's loop with such an open racket angle, as can be seen at the 1:02 mark of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUg15ECMARE But the fact of the matter is that Wang Hao is ACCELERATING at the point of contact, so much so that his block looks more like a counter than a block to me. |
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vutiendat1337
Gold Member Joined: 10/25/2010 Location: Minneapolis, MN Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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I am not a very good player but what I "figured out" is that simply just putting out the paddle and block a spinny loop ain't enough. I learned that I have to make the whole stroke and "guide" the ball, almost pushing it down. It is very disruptive for the attacker because the ball sinks quite low as you push it down. Against consistent loopers and at higher levels, it's not as effective and it's better to counterloop/smash it but I think this method works up to at least 2000.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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Those backhand blocks of Wang Hao are exactly what I've written about. Because he's hitting the ball firmly, not just sticking his racket out there, he doesn't have to close his racket as much. Since the range of angles needed is less, he has more control and more consistency at a good pace, In a game situation he'd be blocking more aggressively with almost the same racket angle (just a little bit more closed). Contrary to the video referenced earlier, where it showed blocking without the racket moving forward, here Wang Hao brings his racket back into position and then drives it forward through the ball. -Larry Hodges
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Pondus
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Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I believe one of the most essential things in blocking (especially high spin balls) is having your body in the proper position behind the ball. Being caught out of position, which happens easily when someone loops with varied speed/spin, makes blocking exceptionally more difficult.
Edited by Pondus - 05/21/2014 at 8:33am |
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Swiff
Platinum Member Joined: 06/09/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2587 |
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Every time I hear of a player struggling with this I must chime in.
A year or so ago I was having a lot of trouble blocking the super heavy topspin that would come from players slow-looping a push. The ball is SO spinny, it seems impossible to close your racket enough. TIP: You DO need to close your racket, but maybe not as much as you think. The reason why players have so much trouble blocking these, I think, is because they move their racket forward when trying to block. When the ball is that spinny, any movement of the racket will send the ball flying off the table. When you block, hold your racket very loose and COMPLETELY STILL. You'll be able to get those ball back much easier. It takes time to break the habit of moving your racket on every hit, but you'll get it. It worked for me so well.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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This might get the ball back, but it won't get it back particularly effectively, except as a change-of-pace. At higher levels, you need to put some pace on your shot. You won't get that by holding the racket completely still and relying on the incoming spin to rebound it out fast enough. That'll work against faster loops, but not against slow, spinny ones. Watch videos of higher-level players, and you'll see how they do move their racket forward as they punch the ball out. There's nothing magical or difficult about it. But if you find this successful for you, then by all means continue and I won't argue with you. (Have you watched a video of yourself to see if you really hold the racket absolutely still?) -Larry Hodges
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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I understand what you mean Larry, but I think describing the motion as you've said where you just hit "firmly" is not a very good description of the right motion. The mistake being made by those having trouble with the slow spinny loop return is that they move their racket forward into the block as if they were trying to flat hit the ball. I think what you are describing as the correct motion is different, where you close the paddle angle and you are actually going up over the top of the ball as you move the racket forward to counteract the spin on the ball. If this same motion was magnified it would become a full counter-loop return.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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The main difference between a block and a regular stroke is that when blocking, you cut down on the backswing and focus on taking the ball quick, and then push the racket through the ball. This is what top inverted players do when blocking (though some use more backswing to increase the speed and spin of their block), and it's easy to counter the spin this way. Others want to have no forward motion, and keep the ball on the table by simply hitting the ball softer, i.e. they are forced to do a weak shot that's mostly good as a change of pace. With modern sponges, you can more easily do this while also topspinning the ball, but you can also do this with only a light topspin, i.e. blocking almost flat with a punch block. When you block with inverted against a spinny loop, the incoming topspin rebounds out as topspin, meaning it essentially goes out like any other drive with topspin, and so you can put pace on the ball like any other topspin shot and still be consistent - and as I've pointed out, by blocking firmly or aggressively, the spin takes less on your racket. This leads to a very consistent block, where the ball goes wherever you direct it, and where you don't even have to close your racket that much, as demonstrated in video shown earlier by Wang Hao. However, others have differing views on this. Let's leave it at that. -Larry Hodges
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Skyline
Premier Member Joined: 07/01/2007 Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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I think I'm beginning to understand what Larry means with his firmly hit block. If I'm not mistaken Larry is basically saying to block on top of the bounce and point to the direction where you want the ball to go( push slight forward and down meaning not to hold your racket still completely but to guide the ball with your wrist. This is just basic blocking technique. I actually still consider this a passive block and not a agressive firmly hit block or whatever. For me an agressive block is a block where you not only guide ball but really hit through the ball. What I was trying to say that that is risky against very heavy topspin if you can not do the block that I would describe as passive. Swiff is making a valid point also when he says that people make mistakes when moving the racket too much forward> I think what he means is that if you move your racket before the ball is on it's highest point you can not control the topspin so in that case it's better to wait and block on top of the bounce. I agree with Geardaddy on this that Larry might use the wrong terminology.
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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+1 Exactly I don't quite buy the argument that by hitting more firmly you take away spin from the ball. You can "punch" into the ball with the block, but you still have to deal with the spin which means you must change the angle that you go through the ball to be more downward. It can be very hard to do this sort of block though if the loop is at a low angle or is very deep.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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I did a search on youtube for "table tennis block," and this video came up that shows a block against a loop. I didn't listen to the long explanation, but went straight to the demo (250 seconds in, link should take you straight there), where it is shown exactly the way I've been describing it. Little backswing, right off the bounce, racket only slightly closed, with a firm forward motion to direct the ball where he wants it to go.
Here's Wang Hao blocking. (Link should take you 57 seconds in where he starts to demo it.) Note how his racket moves forward as he blocks. Here's Kenta Matsudaira blocking. He may be the best blocker in the world right now. Again, note how his racket moves forward when he blocks. Yes, these are world-class players, but that's why I put up the first video, since that was more of Here's Yan An (on left) blocking against Ma Long. At the start (first three rallies) he's mostly just blocking (though he counter-topspins a few). On the ones he blocks note how the racket moves forward. There are many more videos - these are just some of the first that came up. Yes, these are world-class players, but blocking is a pretty basic shot, done pretty much the same at all levels, except of course at the world-class level they block a little harder. But as the first demo shows, this is standard at all levels. Can someone find a video of a top player blocking against a spinny loop (not just a fast one) while drilling or in a match where they don't move their racket forward, and it's not just an occasional change-of-pace block? Sure, players can do this and keep the ball in play that way if that's all you want to do, but is this really what you want to do if you aspire to reach a decent level? -Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/22/2014 at 9:44pm |
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larrytt
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It doesn't take spin off the ball; the spin takes less on the racket, and then it rebounds out as topspin, making it easy to control at a relatively fast pace. -Larry Hodges
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larrytt
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I've posted enough on this topic. At this point, players will have to just look at the videos and try these things out on their own. If something different works for you, then by all means do it, and please post a video. (I might comment on that.)
-Larry Hodges
Edited by larrytt - 05/21/2014 at 12:14pm |
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Skyline
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If you read my last post you will see that I understand what you mean and I agree. That way of blocking gives a very consistent block. Like Baal said begore I think the words got in the way and we agree after all. |
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jrscatman
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Larry, Thanks for all the suggestions it's been very informative and helpful!
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APW46
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The trouble with advice on this subject is related the the standard and potential of the player. In lower levels, and with a player who is not potentially going to get much higher, the best advice is to cover the ball with a closed bat face and early contact and little forward movement, Its not fashionable and correct for higher level modern TT, but correct for that standard of play if you are looking for results and consistency. Some coaches get obsessed with what is correct at the high levels, neglecting what is possible at the lower levels.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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ttTurkey
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Hehe, I know what you mean. Sometimes I feel like stopping them and telling them "don't you know that you can't do that"! |
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ttTurkey
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I get what you're saying about levels, but I think for every level there are active and passive blockers (the person might not have Yan An's block, but at the same time he isn't facing Ma Long). Apart from basically relying on the opponent to miss to win points if you block passively, one of the major issues with the block where you just put the bat there is performance under pressure. It was much worse with the 38mm ball, but even now it's difficult to keep the necessary "dead" hands while dealing with an incoming heavy topspin on a big point. Most people have an involuntary flinch (similar to the golf yips) in this situation, whereas I think it's easier to play your normal game on a big point if you are an active blocker. I remember some pretty good players occasionally blocking the ball back almost over their opponent's head when trying to block a slow heavy topspin on a big point in the 38 mm days! |
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Baal
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I still argue that if your feet are in the right place your hands will kind of naturally play the ball on blocks since you will subconsciously get the right angle. Too much thinking is bad.
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larrytt
Silver Member Joined: 04/04/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 971 |
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I guess we differ on this. I think the blocking technique taught and shown in the video I linked to above is pretty basic, and appropriate to beginner levels. I know I teach it pretty successfully to beginners, both juniors and adults. (I just finished teaching a 10-week adult beginning class - I've taught many of them - and I teach beginning juniors all the time.) Anyway, if you are successful coaching it a different way, then I'm not going to argue it. I also hope I'm not one of those coaches who are "obsessed" with what is correct at the high levels (except for those striving for high levels) - if so, I better not teach that adult beginning class any more. -Larry Hodges
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JacekGM
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As LarryTT mentioned above, and I fully agree, an aggressive block of a spinny loop does not seem to be THAT difficult to learn for us grassroot players. It can be quite spectacular, too, hence the incentive to have it in one's arsenal. Unfortunately, this shot is practiced too little where I play. Here is another video (posted on another thread yesterday by zeio) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUPi4FSX05A It is a recent Waldner vs Saive, so obviously we have good blocking against good looping here... see yourself for the result...
Edited by JacekGM - 05/22/2014 at 10:16pm |
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TonyL
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Thank you everyone for the responses!
I'm really looking to keep improving in my game so I'll try break in the habit of aggressive blocking and counterlooping.
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APW46
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It is all subject to the quality/depth/placement and amount of spin on the incoming loop, and for the right ball, the aggressive block has to be correct, but at match point down against a player who has thrown up a carrott, I know what I do. At match point up its the other option.
In my experience, lower to mid level players lose matches regularly because they block inconsistently against slower heavy topspin, when making the opponent play another stroke could be enough to tip the balance. Most well structured players I know, use consistent low risk topspin to comfortably beat lower rated players, as you climb the standards though, its far less effective.
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The Older I get, The better I was.
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BH-Man
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+1 I believe that in blocking (and just about any shot) when you are in good position (for blocking you step up to the ball and look over it from above and behind)... when you do this, it just gets easier / more instinctive.
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Makelele
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I can't open Wang Hao, Kenta and Yan An videos. I am the only one? Edited by Makelele - 05/22/2014 at 6:45pm |
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pingpongpaddy
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Its because the URLs are including the http protocol twice eg this is wrong:-http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnu66pEzrmI this works:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnu66pEzrmI viz testurl Edited by pingpongpaddy - 05/22/2014 at 7:03pm |
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