|
|
Difference between Limba and Koto |
Post Reply |
Author | ||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 06/13/2014 at 2:08pm |
|||
I was hoping the woodworking experts on the board might be able to give me some ideas about the difference between these woods when used as the outer.
I like the feel of both not really sure what the difference is? |
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
Sponsored Links | ||||
king_pong
Silver Member Joined: 06/29/2010 Location: Minneapolis Status: Offline Points: 871 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Both "bite the ball" really well (if you dig what I'm saying). Koto
bites and releases a little more quickly than Limba, that's why the
Chinese have historically favored it for their at the table attacking
style. Still, koto can it provide good dwell. Limba seems to bite and
hold on a little bit longer than koto. Europeans have traditionally
used that wood on blades. I feel I prefer my Limba topped blades better
when I'm off the table (more classical European style of play).
[Disclaimer: I've really only done side by side comparisons of the two wood surface veneers in 5-ply blades, not with composite blades, nor 7-plies, so I do not know if this difference is as noticeable with those compositions. Perhaps someone with those types of blades can speak on that more in depth -- Maze vs. TBS, or P700 vs. Timo Boll W7, or something]. |
||||
Stiga Infinity VPS (Master): fh/bh - Nittaku Hammond CR max
|
||||
seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
koto is a lot harder. if you don't hit hard, the ball will fall. bh banana flip is much more difficult. You need to have great short game to use koto.
|
||||
pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
|
||||
bschap
Super Member Joined: 01/07/2013 Status: Offline Points: 394 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
when a Koto lover plays with Limba, what is it they don't like?
|
||||
seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I'm not a koto lover, but probably with limba they feel they don't have enough power in the first loop. |
||||
pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
|
||||
JohnnyChop
Gold Member Joined: 05/02/2010 Location: Toronto Status: Offline Points: 1159 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
+1 i like the hardness! limb is more mushy and dwelly
|
||||
729 Battle 2 Yasaka Goibao 5 Nittaku Fastarc G1
Nittaku Fastarc G1 Butterfly Cypress Max |
||||
JacekGM
Platinum Member Joined: 02/17/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2356 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Seguso, your point is well taken. However, it seems to me that the banana flick/flip can be done with both types of veneer if the technique is there... The kind of difference you are talking about probably is very subtle, perhaps noticeable to people rated above US 2300 or so...
|
||||
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
|
||||
Tassie52
Gold Member Joined: 10/09/2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
From a non-woodworker's perspective, some numbers: Janka rating (the hardness of the wood) Limba - 670 lbf (2,990 N) Koto - 940 lbf (4,200 N) Modulus of elasticity (flexibility) Limba - 1,520,000 lbf/in2 (10.49 GPa) Koto - 1,752,000 lbf/in2 (12.08 GPa) Limba is therefore softer than koto and takes less effort to bend than koto. For an outer ply, one might expect koto to be better for blocking and limba better for looping?
|
||||
cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6895 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
i would think a limba user would generally want for dwell and topspin with koto.
i would think a koto user would miss the crisp feeling and forward penetration of koto |
||||
Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
||||
bschap
Super Member Joined: 01/07/2013 Status: Offline Points: 394 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
<<Limba is therefore softer than koto and takes less effort to bend than koto. For an outer ply, one might expect koto to be better for blocking and limba better for looping?>>
yes, that is why I started with and stayed with Limba for so long. But as soon as I switched to harder wood as outer ply my loop go SO MUCH BETTER instantaneously. So I really am not sure what the draw of Limba is.
|
||||
bschap
Super Member Joined: 01/07/2013 Status: Offline Points: 394 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I should amend my last comment. I switched from a 5 ply Limba to a 7 ply Limba (if indeed the Adelie is Limba) and my loop improved instantly. So it might not be the wood but rather the # of plies that made the difference.
|
||||
doraemon
Gold Member Joined: 05/14/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1738 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Soft or hard, it is the overall composition that matters.
For instance, my Persson Powerplay has koto as outerply and it feels soft. My Dicon has limba outerply, but with spruce as the second layer, it feels sharper than my Powerplay. Now, P500 (koto) vs. BT555 (limba), somehow BT555 has more kick and trampoline effect compared to P500. Logically, it is supposed to be P500 that has more kick, considering it has koto (harder) as the outerply. Both have the same thickness and similar composition except the outerply. And my P500 is around 86-87 grams and my BT555 is 81 grams. From the weight alone, P500 is supposed to be more powerful. But no, my BT555 is more powerful. Odd, isn't it?? Edited by doraemon - 06/13/2014 at 10:53pm |
||||
Blade : Just wood
FH : black rubber BH : red rubber |
||||
schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
From the number of blades I've tested, I believe that softer woods like limba give an edge in spin while harder woods like koto (walnut is what I was accustomed to before switching to limba) generate more speed. That's not to say with the right technique or adjustments you can't generate speed or spin with one or the other... these are relative comparisons with the same stroke. With slow brush loops none of this seems to matter.
The harder outer veneer seems to lend itself to faster and lower arcs making it more difficult for the opponent to block or counter without backing up from the table, but at the same time demands very good timing and technique to consistently land loop drives on the table. However I do like the harder feel when it comes to touch shots. Blades I've used that demonstrate this are YEO, YES, Ebenholz V, Rosewood V, Taksim/Viscaria, TBS, and TB ALC. Limba on the other hand arcs more because its softness lends itself to more dwell, which generates more spin leaving some room for error. Shots are easier to block for your opponent provided they can deal with the spin, but I found limba to be preferable at my level for its more forgiving qualities when it comes to looping because just keeping the ball on the table with spin outweighs blazing one-shot-wonders for me. Blades I've used that demonstrate this are Clipper Wood, Clipper CR, Clipper CC, and (currently) Innerforce ZLC.
|
||||
regiz.rugenz
Super Member Joined: 09/25/2013 Location: San Jose, CA. Status: Offline Points: 461 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
+2 I've noticed that significantly after trying an MJ.. at the time I was still on a Viscaria light with koto outer plies. huge difference between these two plies. Edited by regiz.rugenz - 06/14/2014 at 4:59am |
||||
Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant °°°° |
||||
bschap
Super Member Joined: 01/07/2013 Status: Offline Points: 394 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
MJ is Limba outer?
|
||||
Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
That's a really good summary except that for some reason, I never got along with Clipper blades. |
||||
Blade:
Darker Speed90 Rubber Fh and Bh DHS Hurricane 3, 39/38deg Delusion is an asset |
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Schen, glad you finally agree.
|
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
schen
Gold Member Joined: 03/26/2013 Location: San Diego, CA Status: Offline Points: 1244 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Haha it took a lot of experimenting for me to finally realize it. I still miss the feeling of the harder outer plies, but the results I'm getting with limba are more important
|
||||
NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Eventually, you can always go back to koto/walnut because your touch will have improved as well as your stroke. I just think it is harder to get there without being able to feel the vibrations that come with a good loop. Just my opinion.
|
||||
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
||||
regiz.rugenz
Super Member Joined: 09/25/2013 Location: San Jose, CA. Status: Offline Points: 461 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
yup.. Jun Mizutani blade composition: limba - zlc - limba - kiri - limba - zlc - limba |
||||
Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant °°°° |
||||
slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
MJ is not mushy - Limba bites as it normally does during opening loops (on brush) but there's a hard ZLC layer underneath. If anything, relatively, ALC blades are mushy (I own both MJ and ZJK ALC). MJ offers more precise feedback relative to Viscaria, et al.
|
||||
Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
||||
Ross Leidy
Super Member Joined: 10/13/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 402 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
To get a better sense of the isolated properties of koto, I recently built a 7-ply with koto(x3)-kiri-koto(x3). In general, 7-ply blades tend to kick up the speed a bit because of their extra rigidity over a 5-ply. However, I found this blade to be very manageable, not too fast at all, and even a bit of a surprise when blocking - it kept the ball quite low, and with its somewhat lazy rebound I found myself dumping balls into the net if the incoming ball as too slow or my block too passive. In the hands of a good blocker, this type of blade could really frustrate an attacking opponent.
Koto isn't that much harder than limba (if you consider the entire spectrum of wood hardness levels), so it still provides enough dwell for spinny loops, but perhaps not as strong as limba. Tassie's comment on koto being better for blocking sounds right to me. And, I can identify with Seguso's comment about the ball dropping if not hit hard enough. |
||||
bschap
Super Member Joined: 01/07/2013 Status: Offline Points: 394 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
MJ is not 3 ply wood 2 ply ZLC?
|
||||
Johnny Erasure
Platinum Member Joined: 07/08/2013 Location: România Status: Offline Points: 2698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Not, as regiz.rugenz said, MJ is 5 ply wood and 2 ply ZLC. |
||||
Blade: JM ZLC
Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
||||
spinitgood
Member Joined: 01/01/2014 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 30 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Ross Have you tried a 3Xlimba, kiri, 3Xlimba? Would that make the balls much higher on passive blocks? |
||||
Rasant Grip max on FH,Rasant powersponge max on BH
Glued on a Ross Leidy custom blade - mahogany mahogany spruce mahogany mahogany |
||||
Johnny Erasure
Platinum Member Joined: 07/08/2013 Location: România Status: Offline Points: 2698 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Koto is hardness than limba, especially when used as exterior veneer, is best for looping, blocking and counterattack when limba is best for topspin, has better control and is more mushy. When these layers are used on the outside depends much on the layers that are underneath. When are interleaved soft then we have a lower throw angle, for example koto-spruce. I'll put two pictures with two blades of 7 ply allwood that outer ply of black limba (harder than normal limba) and scaly koto (harder than normal koto).
Edited by Johnny Erasure - 06/19/2014 at 12:44pm |
||||
Blade: JM ZLC
Rubbers: FH Dignics 09C BH Dignics 05 Feedback: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63937&KW=Johnny+Erasure&PID=764628&title=feedback-for-j |
||||
jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Thanks to everyone for the feedback - very helpful information.
I think the hardness might be what I was feeling. But without having 2 exact same blades with only the outer being different it's hard to compare. Perhaps Ross L. might be able to give us more info. as he has the capability to build exact versions. Thanks again.
|
||||
Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
||||
Ross Leidy
Super Member Joined: 10/13/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 402 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I've built a few all-limba blades, and some close to the one you spec'd (the innermost ply was douglas fir instead of limba), but for a true apples-to-apples comparison I'd need to build one as you suggest with same thickness and head/handle shape and see how it compares. While I'd not characterize limba as a bouncy wood, I get the sense that it's a little more springy than koto and that may be evident in the rebound from a block. I might give it a try sometime.
|
||||
ttping85
Gold Member Joined: 04/09/2012 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1061 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
a lot of great comments here!!!
|
||||
My list of blades for sale https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wYci9423byd3X43DhSsaXOmysNKMfK-RnPWSo3UfpkQ/edit?usp=drivesdk
|
||||
Post Reply | |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer
MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd. |