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DHS 40+ Ball Pix and Review |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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I would analyze each property of the new ball separately:
lower bounce: favors close to table loopers and long pips choppers, harms short pips. Unclear for mid distance loopers; harms third ball players. slower: favors close to table loopers, long pips choppers; harms third ball players. probably harms mid distance loopers. favors defenders who lob. less spin: harms third ball players, close to table loopers; favors mid distance loopers; harms log pips choppers. Probably favors short pips. So the overall result is unclear. There are conflicting factors. Breaking news: Latest test by pros (Schlager academy) say that the days of frictionless anti, and frictionless long pips, at the table, are finished, as you can powerloop and kill their blocks. I haven't asked if this holds for long pips choppers as well. Edited by seguso - 07/24/2014 at 4:36am |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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+1 seguso. No player is an island - we all tend to use a combination of technique and strategy in our overall game. Some parts will suffer, some perhaps improve.
As for LP - I think this depends on how players are using them. At the low(er) levels, LP players I see tend to rely on spin reversal and general confusion for the opponent. Lack of familiarity with the material trips opponents up. This strategy will take a big hit with the new ball (and I'm all for that). At higher levels this isn't such a factor, so I don't see any pros with LP really suffering. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The LP players at my club love the ball at the moment. They can block anything and they can often make the ball fall short. Maybe they are finished at a 2500+ level or after everyone adjusts to the new ball, but they are doing fine at the moment.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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This is just keeping the ball on the table. Admirable in itself, but without the extremes of spin reversal there will be far fewer errors from the opponent. At the lower levels, this is where the points come from IMO - not blocking people down and depth changes. Opponents with good movement will have no issues with that. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I disagree - the ball doesn't come long so it is harder to reloop. I find that attacking the ball over the table is far less venomous than it is with the current ball. If I flick the ball hard, I am usually giving my opponent an easy block for the point. Ultimately, better players can loop hard enough to force errors but the reversal and the fact that the ball is shorter are an annoying combination. The reversal by itself, not so much.
Edited by NextLevel - 07/24/2014 at 6:02am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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Hmmm, well. I think you've had more experience with LP players and the new ball, so fair enough. I wonder if the LP players I see in my local leagues are the same type of LP players you see. We have a lot of older players here who aren't very mobile. They aren't blockers. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The long pips styles I play against are pushblockers and choppers, with many of the later incorporating some of the strokes of the former as variations. The pushblockers love the ball - the choppers also do, but for different reasons. Generally, offensive players are the ones going to hate this ball the most because of the loss of speed - you have to work harder to place the ball to win the point. Just looping at someone to make them pop up the ball is not what it used to be.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I can see the PBs liking things, but the choppers I play against will struggle IMO. Unless they adapt their games, obviously. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one single PB player in my local league. Lucky me, eh?
Loopers will have to work harder. Off the bounce hitters will like it. I quite like it - it should suit large parts of my game. Adjustments in timing are the crucial thing at the moment, but I very much doubt my league will be enforcing the new ball for the coming season. But will they allow clubs to make their own minds up? It will be infuriating if you play with cell one week and non-cell the next. |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Love playing vs the OX pushblocker crowd no matter what ball is used.
True bounce, more solid and heavy ball, plus whatever spin you put on it not disappearing sounds good to me.
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bogeyhunter
Gold Member Joined: 02/22/2006 Location: Jacksonville, F Status: Offline Points: 1245 |
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I can confirm that I, a chopper, love this ball.
ball speed is slower. Attackers have to loop slower but chopper can chop harder. http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26218 Durability for Joola balls is S..it!!!! Edited by bogeyhunter - 07/24/2014 at 11:42am |
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We also carries Sauer & Tröger. Lissom O+EASY P 1mm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_65FLO2Lneo https://youtu.be/YgYFPJCBCr0 https://youtu.be/NeHp789Lb1c https://youtu.be/_65FLO2Lneo |
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the_theologian
Premier Member Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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I just compared five different new balls in a bounce test. Seamless versions (palio and Xsf) bounce considerably higher than the other three (nittaku, double fish, and dhs). Seamless bounce closest to the old ball
*all balls mentioned were ITTF approved versions |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I have noticed my regular inverted setup is too slow for the new ball. My short pips setup is fine though. In fact, I feel it's easier to load up with power with short pips playing with the new ball than celluloid ball. Edited by roundrobin - 07/24/2014 at 3:41pm |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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tournament wise were are you going to play with the new ball? Nationals in Dec other then that do you know of any tournaments that will feature the new ball? or will your local club sponsor local RR with the new ball?
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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The new balls are still pretty rare around here, but as soon as availability improves I think everyone will switch to it. There's no point to play with the old ball if all major ITTF events will be using the new one coming this September. I have a strong feeling that the upcoming Nationals will switch to the new ball, even though at this moment the USATT is signaling that celluloid balls will still be used. It won't make any sense to stick with celluloid balls when all big ITTF events will be using the new ones for 3-4 months by then, and all of our cadets, juniors and adult national team members would have been trained with these new balls as well. The celluloid ball is history (so are most loopers' setups, unfortunately). |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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sandiway
Gold Member Joined: 04/15/2010 Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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A bit off-topic, BTW, RoundRobin, should this signature of yours be updated? I visited LATTA very recently, and I was saddened to hear that the Saturday afternoon RR hasn't been run for quite a while. Sandiway |
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jonyer1980
Gold Member Joined: 07/30/2008 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 1600 |
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3rd day with DHS poly balls, 3rd ball broken. New poly ball has serious durability issues. I had a few units that also had roundness issues, I feel really disappointed with them. At least, seamless are way more durable so ill probably stick with them. I can't bear ittf is dealing with a beta ball, though approved are we're mere lab rats on their experiments.
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Rosewood V FL
Nittaku Fastarc G1-FH Stiga DNA Pro-S MAX BH Avoid any Butterfly stuff... at abusive prices. Raw power without control means nothing |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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That is the price to pay to be on the bleeding edge.
I'm waiting for the Nittaku ones to hit the market. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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After another two hours testing, I have to say it is not as good as I first thought. We played a lot of doubles matches where my partner was a chopper who twiddles often and hits / loops with his inverted.
It really sucks to be the partner of a chopper now. We got beat very easily by our opponents who used a simple tactic: they served long and if the chopper chopped it, they played a soft loop into my backhand. It is extremely difficult to loop back because of the inertness of the ball and the different flight path. They almost always finished the point this way. There were some other situations which lead me to the conclusion that there will be no point in making a chopper-attacker pair in the style of Robert Gardos and Chen Weixing. The ball dips sooner and there is not so much spin, an attacker-attacker pair will be able to mess up an attacker-defender pair completely. Over the table loops are impossible in doubles (too) , all you can do is push back the ball when receiving. One bad decision on placement and there is no way your partner can correct it. Everybody has to be extremely careful now with their placement, much more than before. I played a singles match against the chopper and an additional two sets. I rested for 15 minutes before we started, he was well warmed up because he had received one hours coaching and had played a match with somebody else with the celluloid ball. We did no hitting up and he beat me 3:0. I tried the things I normally do with the old ball. I had to find here too that over the table loops do not work. It is true that chops can seem more dangerous but it will mean nothing at the pros level who play about 25-30 hours a week. None of his chops were as dangerous now and when I stopped trying to attack his serves and just pushed them back, I beat him comfortably. It is very difficult to hit a winner but as the ball dips sooner and stay lower, choppers can be killed with constant loops, true, every attacker will have to loop a lot more in each rally. Overall, I have to modify my initial analysis, the new ball is not 10% slower but about 20% - 25%. Whoever gets in the first attack is at more advantage than before because there is not as much momentum on the ball and it is more difficult to come back into a rally. Some long pips will be less effective, this is for sure. The long pips we tried were: Dawei 388 D 0.5 mm, Sanwei Code 0.5 mm, Kokutaku Tuple 911 0.5 mm, Feint Long III OX None produced to dangerous chops except for the Sanwei Code. However, it is very difficult to control and there is not much point in using it because it benefit the opponent. Only 3 out of every 10 shots were dangerous and it sends balls into the net the rest of the time. The Dawei and the Kokutaku are so-so but they are harder than the Code. Control is better but they do not produce as dangerous chops by far. The Ox Feint is not too dangerous either. I tend to think that the new ball in its current form does more harm than good. The three of us who played the doubles with the exception of the chopper agreed that it was not so much fun |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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The chopper likes it, whom the looper can beat by merely pushing back - win-win situation!
The point about placement is actually a good thing, isn't it? Ever since the 40mm era kicked in, people have been complaining about mindless yet muscular loopers flooding the scene. The new ball will keep them in check until they get more muscular and faster as well as spinier equipment reaches the masses. |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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Hans Regenkurt
Silver Member Joined: 08/12/2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 826 |
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Well, yes and no. The placement thing would be positive in itself but the ball behaves awkwardly enough in other aspects.
I do not think that rubbers can improve the spin and speed, neither can muscles. Maybe the Vera de Milo (Jim Carrey in Living Colour) kind of female players will rule the ranking lists The ball dips so soon and stays so low that there are a lot less opportunities for a player to counterattack effectively while the ball is so slow. So on the one hand it requires more a tactical game but on the other the ball produces such behaviour that unjustly limits the players options, resulting in a dumber game. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I'm not sure (yet) if this is something that will be fixed by equipment. Ball stays low and main issue I am having right now is to get used to the different trajectory. I personally think now that this is the future, the sooner we all switch over to this thing exclusively the better, since trying to play with both kinds of balls is pretty unfeasible. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Yes, our Saturday afternoon RR is temporarily on hold as I am busy with school... Meanwhile, we have changed our USATT-sanctioned LATTA Open RR tournaments from being held quarterly to monthly to satisfy our members' desire for top competition. As soon as I am done with school the weekly RR will be back. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I think the low bounce issue can be remedied by emphasizing more on 3rd ball placement than ever before. A good 3rd ball attack will still force the opponent to return a high-bounce, low-quality ball to kill. |
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Current USATT Rating: 2181
Argentina National Team Member, 1985-1986. Current Club: Los Angeles Table Tennis Association. My Setup: Yinhe Q1 / T64 2.1 black / Saviga V 0.5mm red |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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. A director of a club near me mentioned last night that the players reviewed the new ball over the last couple Sat. and decided to stick with the old 40C, they don't do any junior training and few if any of the players go to tournaments. Several clubs that depend on Junior training will of course switch over both for training and there club RR. The clubs to watch will be those that do little or no Junior training but have a large older member roster, they may be in a no win situation. |
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sandiway
Gold Member Joined: 04/15/2010 Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Yay! And will this be something to look forward to sometime in 2015? Two weekends ago, the California Table Tennis Center, aka Gao Jun Club, was running an unsanctioned tournament. Seemed well-attended... Sandiway
Edited by sandiway - 07/24/2014 at 8:27pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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If we kept both balls and had players flip coins and choose, it would add another layer to the game.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I played with the new balls three days in a row, and then last night played with the old one. Let me just say it was awful beyond belief, my timing was so messed up. This transition period is not going to be easy and it is not good for the sport.
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Myself and another guy played with the new ball last Wednesday night. He is a heavy spinner from both sides, the new ball messed his timing up a lot. Using his new setup he was playing great vs the celluloid ball. I am more of a loop hitter from both sides, the new ball did not mess up my timing much. I just had to watch the bounce which is different then react. |
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Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX |
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TurboZ
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2012 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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Very true. It is even worst if you practice with Seamless in between. The two new balls are night and day. |
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