Thomas Keinath on plastic balls

Thomas Keinath (world rank 111) on Tibhar plastic balls (in German):

"Wir haben dort mit Tibhar Bällen trainiert. Die Qualität der Bällen schwangt jedoch noch etwas. In jedem Training sind ca 15 bis 20 Bälle kaputt gegangen. Aber in Zukunft werden die Bälle sicher besser werden.
Für jeden Spieler ist es eine große Umstellung. Man trifft oft die Kante und haut beim Gegen Top Spin die Bälle vorbei. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass der Ball beim Aufschlag und Rückschlag mehr in der Luft stehen bleibt. Die Bälle springen bei den Aufschlägen nicht mehr so weit und die Bälle springen flacher ab. Das Spiel entscheidet sich mehr über Aufschlag und Rückschlag. Im offenen Spiel ist der Ball sehr schwer zu kontrollieren. Der Block geht oft ins Netz oder auch ins aus. Man muss mehr nach vorne spielen wenn man den Ball liegen hat.
Fast jeder Spieler ist am rumprobieren mit neuen Hölzer und härteren und weicheren Belägen. Alles ist noch sehr ungewiss im Moment. Die Beläge spielen sich schneller ab durch den Plastik Ball."

http://forum.tt-news.de//showpost.php?p=2557636&postcount=980

I do not have time to translate it at the moment, but my short summary would be "both durability and playing properties are total crap".

"We have trained there with Tibhar balls. However, the quality of the balls schwangt something else. In each training ca have gone 15 to 20 balls broken., But in the future the balls are sure to get better.
For each player there is a big change. One often meets the edge and the skin at the counter top spin balls over. I have a feeling that the ball remains more on impact and setback in the air. The balls jump to the surcharges no longer so far and the balls jump from flat. The game chooses more about surcharge and kickback. In open play the ball is very difficult to control. The block often goes from the net or the. You have to play up front if you are the ball more.
Almost every player is on trial and error with new timbers and harder and softer surfaces. Everything is still very uncertain at the moment. The linings are happening faster through the plastic ball "

This is google translates attempt - still not sure what it means in English, however.

But... "In the future the balls are sure to get better" suggests to me that Keinath remains open rather than just "total crap". Also he is commenting only on Tibhar balls and not all plastic balls.

My summary would be "Everything is still very uncertain at the moment." But "total crap" will sell more newspapers.

NextLevel wrote: If you are familiar with the writings of our resident Mastermind, you could hardly be surprised by his summation.

"Mastermind"?

hardbat is looking more and more appealing...

ITTF requested the new balls be more abrasive on the surface.

assiduous wrote: ITTF requested the new balls be more abrasive on the surface.

Yes, this explanation makes sense.  Definitely noticeable when you hold them in your hand with a celluloid one.  This probably affects they way they bounce off the table when they are spinning, even if they bounce less in a simple drop test.  (edit added, also the way they fly in the air).

Definitely, these balls play differently, and there may be a lot that goes into it.

Lineup makes a good point too.  My initial impression after a night using these things was that I was really tired.

Kolevtt grasped the gist of it all. He is very right about less skilled players beating better ones owing to the spin unfriendly behaviour of the ball.

I myself conducted a little test last Friday with players who are lower ranked and technically not so adept. One of them was a hobby player who restarted the sport after a 20 year break - he said he could not feel any differences between the DHS plastic ball and the Joola *** celluloid.

Then I went on to test with a player who cannot loop with his forehand and uses ox long pips on his backhand, he just slaps the ball when it pops up without really knowing how it spins. He also commented that he does not feel that much of a difference. After that there was a 14 year old kid who has been playing for 2 years and he strives to make proper attacking strokes, he has not got stuck at the level of pushing. It is only his strokes are not solid but no one can expect more after 2 years. He loops rather well with the celluloid ball but he was disgusted by the DHS plastic ball and he missed almost every second loop.

I feel that some forum members are too optimistic about the plastic balls currently on the market. I would bet that the ITTF sanctioned tournaments will not get the same crappy ball as the average player does.

Based on the little info on the Nittaku Premium plastic ball, that could be something usable but have a look at the price of the plain Chinese produced SHA ball, it is 5.40 EUR / 3 pcs + shipping at tabletennis11. How much will the premium cost? I have a hunch that it will be about double.

You can argue that the prices will drop as the market gets saturated with the new plastic balls but in the case of the Nittaku Premium, I cannot see that going below even 5 EUR for a long time from now, which is quite a lot for three balls.

Hans Regenkurt wrote: Based on the little info on the Nittaku Premium plastic ball, that could be something usable but have a look at the price of the plain Chinese produced SHA ball, it is 5.40 EUR / 3 pcs + shipping at tabletennis11. How much will the premium cost? I have a hunch that it will be about double. You can argue that the prices will drop as the market gets saturated with the new plastic balls but in the case of the Nittaku Premium, I cannot see that going below even 5 EUR for a long time from now, which is quite a lot for three balls.

I remember when we first switched to 40mm balls, the Chinese versions were really bad.  It took them a while to improve their products.  Nowadays 40mm 3-star DHS celluloid balls cost about 1/3 of Nittaku premiums, and perform just as good in the first three hours of use (I don't like any of the current 40mm balls after three hours of use anyway, even though Nittakus hold up a bit better).  So I think cheap Chinese 2-piece poly balls will improve their quality substantially after a few months of mass production.

Mastermind wrote: roundrobin wrote: So I think cheap Chinese 2-piece poly balls will improve their quality substantially after a few months of mass production. Right, 3 years since 2011 have not been enough to get a reasonable quality, but a few more months will lead to a success. Very logical.

You are forgetting that a few more months will be added to the 3 years already spent.  
The key here is to simply source better raw materials as the ball production method is the same between made-in-Japan Nittakus and cheap Chinese balls.

Well, a few points.  We don't know if Japanese Nittaku balls will have durability problems.  They might.  We don't know if they use the same production techniques or if their improved play is a result of their using better source materials.  One possibility is that the increase in size is what causes the durability problem, in which case as long as ITTF insists on that, we will have these issues, no matter who makes the balls.

It would be more accurate would be to say that I don't know the answer to those questions.  If someone else around here actually knows (as opposed to suspects or feels the answers) please let us know, but it is likely that these are industrial secrets.  If you claim to have the answer because you use The Force, I will remain skeptical.

Baal wrote: One possibility is that the increase in size is what causes the durability problem, in which case as long as ITTF insists on that, we will have these issues, no matter who makes the balls.

This is a really good guess, Baal.

That's why some ITTF people have made a change to the technical leaflet T3 concerning the ball weight recently, allowing (illegally) heavier balls, but the change is only temporary. The clever trick is that after 01.01.2016 lighter plastic balls will return automatically:

Temporary amendmend for non-celluloid balls ...a temporary release of three specifications for non-celluloid balls is decided: Weight, bounce and hardness. ... It is valid until January 1, 2016. At this date, after all development is completed, the original specifications will apply.

http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf


Edited by Mastermind - 07/29/2014 at 6:56pm

Baal wrote: Well, a few points.  We don't know if Japanese Nittaku balls will have durability problems.  They might.  We don't know if they use the same production techniques or if their improved play is a result of their using better source materials.  One possibility is that the increase in size is what causes the durability problem, in which case as long as ITTF insists on that, we will have these issues, no matter who makes the balls.

Unlike seamless balls, the new 2-pc balls are still made of cellulose sheets, just not in as flammable form as celluloid, which btw is also a form of synthetic plastic.  The current ball manufacturers simply replace celluloid sheets with non-inflammable sheets still made of cellulose.  Unlike making seamless balls, the manufacturing process for these 2-piece "poly" balls is still the same as old celluloid balls.  So, better raw materials will make better 2-piece balls.  But you could be right...perhaps no existing raw materials can overcome durability issues due to increase in size demanded by ITTF.





Edited by roundrobin - 07/29/2014 at 7:32pm

igorponger wrote: PEOPLE, BE ALERT !!!! The Mollycoddles will always decry plastic ball.      The game has changed, and the blocking folk are the kings from now on...        LOOPERS, STOP YOUR KIDDY WHINE. Go, and have a massive physical driills. Table Tennis is an athletic sport,, featuring muscular power first, All the fibble-legged MOLLIES are strongly welcomed to play some sedentary tiddlewink, darts and kibergame... Please, take your departure FROM TABLE TENNIS !!!!! I am all happy about plastic, I am a chronical blocker.   It is my primetime now.     VIVA   ADHAM SHARARA VIVA DHS BALL MAKERS !!!!!!

By the way, Adham Sharara's original plan was to completely replace celluloid balls with 1-piece plastic balls.  Alas, it didn't quite work out for him.    He did not expect current celluloid ball maker's decision to keep making 2-piece balls, but with a similar but safer type of cellulose material (anyone still wonder why all the new 2-pc. "poly" balls play just like larger celluloid balls?).  In the end, we are simply getting a larger 2-piece ball still made of cellulose at 3 times the price of current celluloid balls.




Edited by roundrobin - 07/29/2014 at 10:32pm

roundrobin wrote: Baal wrote: Well, a few points.  We don't know if Japanese Nittaku balls will have durability problems.  They might.  We don't know if they use the same production techniques or if their improved play is a result of their using better source materials.  One possibility is that the increase in size is what causes the durability problem, in which case as long as ITTF insists on that, we will have these issues, no matter who makes the balls. Unlike seamless balls, the new 2-pc balls are still made of cellulose sheets, just not in as flammable form as celluloid, which btw is also a form of synthetic plastic.  The current ball manufacturers simply replace celluloid sheets with non-inflammable sheets still made of cellulose.  Unlike making seamless balls, the manufacturing process for these 2-piece "poly" balls is still the same as old celluloid balls.  So, better raw materials will make better 2-piece balls.  But you could be right...perhaps no existing raw materials can overcome durability issues due to increase in size demanded by ITTF.

Yes.  Cellulose acetate vs cellulose nitrate.  Probably shouldn't make that much difference, but in fact they are not identical and the anion is part of the structure of the plastic, so can't rule it out entirely.